Got Surprised by a Bear this Weekend, Rethinking Carry Options

[Stumper]

Mordis, I recall a case perhaps 30 years ago in which a bear mauled someone and a local game warden shot it with his .38 Special. It moved into heavy cover and he waited to follow it up until another officer arrived with a rifle....and they went and found thedead bear. That story proves little except what should be obvious to every arm chair ballistician-"A .38 special can kill a large bear."
FWIW, I live in black bear country and routinely carry a .38 when hiking. I'm much more concerned with turning an ankle, wrenching a knee or being stuck by lightning than I am bears......but the .38 is there if I should need it. When I lived in Grizzly country I carried a stout .45 colt....except for the times I packed a .22.

 

[Chui]

I really like the idea of the S&W 629 Mountain Gun with hard cast lead projectiles. I'm new to big revolvers and I haven't adjusted to the recoil so I use 250 gr projectiles. I'm not sure the gun would handle a steady diet of 300 gr bullets. My follow up shots are "not quick enough" for me but if the beast were to get too close I'd have no issues hitting it in the vitals.

I need to practice more with it.

 

[mountainclmbr]

I think that a 44 mag with 3 to 4-inch barrel and loaded with the Nosler 250 gr Partitions or the Speer 270 gr Jacketed Flat Point would be good for the black bears here in Colorado. I got some of the Double Tap Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Beartooth loads to try out, but I think it is more suited for grizzlies where penetration requirements are important. I have just finished modifying a nylon shoulder holster to make it suitable to hold my 3 1/2 - inch to 6-inch 1911's as well as up to 6-inch revolvers. I added stitches that make the gun stop at the trigger guard so it is not dependent on barrel length for proper grip position. I can wear an old unbuttoned work shirt as a cover garment. Just got to get a "beater" 44 mag I can work in the yard with.

 

[rogertc1]

I'd carry my S&W .50 with 700gr bullets....

 

[LanceOregon]

But, it got me thinking... what good would a .40 be on a big ol bear? Same goes for my .45. I started doing some more ballistics research and everyone seemed to think I should go for a magnum hunting round.

Do you really believe that a 10mm is that much more powerful than a .40 S&W or .45 Auto that the Bear would actually notice??

.

 

[kamerer]

I think that a 44 mag with 3 to 4-inch barrel and loaded with the Nosler 250 gr Partitions or the Speer 270 gr Jacketed Flat Point would be good for the black bears here in Colorado.

Mountainclmbr, I totally agree. As I mentioned, I use the 3" and similar type rounds. Finding a "beater" .44 will be harder than you think - people tend to baby these things and take care of them. But start your shopping and good luck.

 

[RonC]

When I hike in the Colorado mountains, I carry a Ruger SP101 stoked with 357 mag. A 158 gr JSP at 1,240 ft/s with 539 ft·lb is likely to do the job. I can't swear to it because I am not an expert and I haven't had a bear confrontation, but it seems reasonable.

It's not fun shooting 50 of the 357 at the range, but it is no problem to practice with 20 or 25 of them. The Ruger is easily carried and just heavy enough to take the sting out of the recoil.

I'm sure that the S&W GP100 could play the same role.

Ron

 

[MonkezUncle]

Kam... thankfully I was on federal land. I have nothing good to say about CA state gun laws. But the rangers on the federal land were actually ok w/ me carrying, which is to their credit. They were actually incredibly helpful planning the hikes.

Lance... yes, I do think that 10mm would fair significantly better then .40 or .45 in application on a bear. When I compared the ballistics info 10mm was just slightly below the curve on some of the hunting calibers (handgun). A 10mm round is just a .40 with a good deal more powder behind it. .40 actually has the best one shot stopping power of any round (actually better then .44 mag). Again, it really varies based on manufacturer/round selection as shown here:

http://www.internetarmory.com/handgunammo.htm

(FederalPremium.com has a great compare feature for the ballistics charts on their different ammo so you can do a compare of different specs or different calibers)

The benefit here is that Mass x Velocity = Force (yes, for all you purists out there the formula is actually F= MA but since A= (vf-vi)/t I thought I would go with it for simplicity's sake. And yes, I know there is much more to this (bullet mass, change over time, etc)). Added to that are the diameter issues which are important for the wound channel.

So with 10mm you have a pretty meaty cartridge going at a fairly nice clip (compared to .45 which is only .05 inches bigger in diameter (11%) but goes 200-300 fps slower (especially @ 50 yd and 100yd measurements) which is a difference of 20-30%). Again, this varies widely depending on manufacture, etc (and yes, there may be a huge swing in bullet mass depending on ammo choice which is why I did not touch that here).

Think of it this way... what is the difference between .45 ACP and .454 Casull? About 4 one thousands of an inch wider and .02 of an inch longer and a heck of a lot more powder. And .454 is what they actually use for hunting bears. All things being relatively equal, powder equals speed. Same goes for .40 vs 10mm.

So, all things being equal, .454 Casull has one application (I almost broke my wrist shooting it! ) but 10mm can still be used at range, home defense, etc. So, while a true hunting cartridge would be better on bears, I'm going to go with something a little more versatile but still packing enough to hopefully make the bear move along.

I will preface that by saying, with the exception of the math, everything above is my opinion... I don't know any real world data for how 10mm would do against a bear. (And I hope I never find out first hand). Once was enough thank you! But the data is compelling enough for me to make the switch... b/c I know neither my .40 or .45 would cut it. Thx for the question Lance! God Bless!

-MonkezUncle

 

[Smaug]

Do you really believe that a 10mm is that much more powerful than a .40 S&W or .45 Auto that the Bear would actually notice??

I do, but ammo choice is critical. it depends a lot on the ammo. For starters, here's some data on typical FMJ ammo which many of us would probably pick for its deeper penetration in bears. I'm not quite sure how or why they castrated 10mm to have less energy than 40 S&W, but there you have it.

• Federal American Eagle, 40 S&W, FMJ, 165 gr., 426 ft-lb. of energy at 25 yds.
• Federal American Eagle, 45 Auto, FMJ, 230 gr., 389 ft-lb. of energy at 25 yds.
• Federal American Eagle, 10mm, FMJ, 180 gr., 398 ft-lb. of energy at 25 yds.

Looking a bit further, at Cor-Bon's website, they have a series of hunting ammo, of which 10mm is the minimum caliber: (about the same energy levels as 357 Magnum)

• Cor-Bon, 10mm, 180 gr., BCSP (bonded core, soft point) 676 ft-lbs.
• Cor-Bon, 10mm, 200 gr., RNPN (round nose "penetrator) 562 ft-lbs.

The "weaker" of those two loads delivers 32% more energy. The stronger gives 59% more energy. Assuming the bullet didn't go straight through the bear, I'm sure he'd feel that difference.

I'd probably carry in a national forest even if it is illegal, after reading that CNN article on pot gardens linked above.

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

In my state... ( MN ) the 10mm is legal to hunt with, & the 40 & 45 are not...

 

[Socrates]

Girls:
Black bears. Leave em alone. Bear spray. Carry a .500JRH for backup, in a BFR. Or, a .45Colt with buffalobore.com 260 grains, @ 1450 fps.

Please, don't feed, or kill black bears...
Guns are a LAST resort, in defense, against wildlife. I once shot a crow, and, I learned, the hardway, that crows mate for life. The anguish that female crow suffered made me feel I made a SERIOUS mistake putting dad away. So, they were noisy....my bad...

 

[Unckie Bub]

My 357 Python goes every where with me on my hip in open carry except for hunting season.

I carry while fly fishing 357 MAG 200 GR. HC CORBON HUNTER 1150 fps/587 ftlbs

Now, I would hate to kill any animal other then for harvest.
But I wouldn't hesitate if my life were on the line!!!

My Grand Pap once told me something that reins true....

He said: "If it is Wild, It BITES!!!"

That goes for Ski-Ders(mosquitoes) to the Polar Bear!!!!

 

[Stiofan]

I usually carry just my ccw pocket .380 while fishing early in the season (two legged beasts!), but I've started OCing with my 4" GP100 as the huckleberries are out now and the bears are too. This time of year I try and stay clear of the Grizzlies north and southeast of me, but I'm thinking real hard on picking up a Ruger BH in .41 Mag for next year. The .357 should be fine for blackies though, and in 40+ years of hiking I've seen dozens of them and never felt threatened yet. Then again, there is always a first time.

 

[adk]

Bears are tough ...

With a black bear there's all that hide and fat and muscle, and maybe bone too. The bullet has to deal with all that, and probably with a bad hit. You want something that's going to get through and change his plans, no matter where you hit him almost. I think that has to be a powerful gun --- or maybe a dose from a big UDAP spray can. Lots of people think spray is the best bet. Could be. I think you are allowed to take it anywhere, unlike a gun. Not much fun, though. Could get both.

------

 

[WIN71]

Need help here

I once shot a crow, and, I learned, the hardway, that crows mate for life. The anguish that female crow suffered made me feel I made a SERIOUS mistake putting dad away

Now wait a minute here. I don't want to make the same mistake. So how do you know it was the head of the household you shot and not the little woman. The only reason I'm so curious is I shoot coyotes and geese too!

 

[mountainclmbr]

I don't really want to kill a bear, just to defend against one that doesn't run away and is threatening. The bear that bashed in a window, frame and all, happened when my wife and I were out of town. Our dogs apparently kept the bear from entering the house. I wish I knew the story behind that!

The bear that tried to swat me in the face was a little guy, about 100 lbs. Like everyone else around here we had a bird feeder. Ours was way up under the eaves of the house on the side of the house facing the back deck which is 1 story high and with a railing all around. But, the bear got on the deck via a tree and was jumping to grab the bird feeder. That was the "padump. padump" noise my wife heard. I was trying to find the source of the noise and had my face to the window looking out back when my wife walked in and turned on the room lights. This illuminated me against the window where I happened to be about 1 foot from the bears back. When the light went on it tried to swat me which flexed the double pane window and hit me pretty strongly in the head (the next morning it was clear that the muddy paw swipe on the outside went across my nose print on the inside). I had my Kahr MK40, b ut ran to the bedroom and got the 12ga that was loaded with slugs first and then 00 buck. When I got back the bear was still there, trying to hide in the shadow under the window sill. It was only about 5 ft away from the sliding glass door and the dogs were going crazy. I chose to let the dogs out under shotgun cover. The dogs chased the bear who jumped onto the deck railing and then into a tree and into the night. I have not seen that bear since. The next day our bird feeders were in the trash. But, all of our neighbors still have theirs and we have not seen a reduction of bears in our yard or on the deck.

This last bear that showed up did so around noon just after I shut down the chain saw cutting fire wood.

I would not count on bear spray too much up here in the mountains where the wind is often blowing so strong. I recall washing the car with a pressure nozzle where the wind was so strong that the water would not spray 2 ft into the direction of the wind. I think bear spray wouldn't go 2 inches in those conditions that are common in spring and fall when bears are most aggressive.

 

[s002cjs]

As others mention, blacks tend to stay away from people. The one attack I knew about was a friend walking her dogs, where the dogs ran off to play with a pair of cubs. Mama went after my friend, and fortunately a nearby homeowner had a shotgun handy and fired a round into the air...off ran mama and cubs. Incidentally, in true liberal fashion, my friend apparently received a good amount of hate mail and phone calls.

For my choice, I tend to carry 9mm when hiking around here, mostly because it's what I have to carry most comfortably, and thus reliably carry. But I fully expect that most would take off from just the sound of the shot. Now there's supposedly a mountain lion in my neighborhood too (would love to see that...from a distance), but in all my bear encounters so far (about 6 since moving to Colorado 2 years ago), I have never felt the need to even consider drawing.

All the same, it might be a good excuse to look into a .357 I've been thinking about...For the blacks, I believe that would be sufficient.

 

[mountainclmbr]

I have heard mountain lion screams very close to our house on 2 occasions at night. Have never seen one in Colorado. I saw one once in Florida where they are much more rare. Around here the big threats in order of problems are black bears, mountain lions, in rut (mule deer, elk, moose), escaped bison from nearby ranches.

 

[langenc]

File the front sight off so it wont hurt when he jambs it home.

 

[mountainclmbr]

File the front sight off so it wont hurt when he jambs it home.

Speaking from experience?