Is this based on sales figures? Have a source for that?
Why not a .38 Super?
- Thread starter gmarr
- Start date
Is this based on sales figures? Have a source for that?
Thing is that unless a round is adopted in large numbers by the military or law enforcement it will be a niche caliber. That's not a bad thing, it just is a true thing.
The top center fire semi auto pistol rounds in the U.S. are 9mm, 40 S&W and the 45 acp. beyond that they are all niche calibers. The size of that niche will grow and retract over the decades as they go in and out of fashion.
There is always an argument over what's more powerful. Which is kinda pointless. There is always something more powerful, in one way or another.
A person shoots the Super because they like what it does and how it does it. Not because it's "better" than any other round. It is arguably better than some rounds at some things, as a hunting caliber it's better than the 9mm at appropriate ranges.
A fella says that the 38 Super was supplanted by the 10mm. A statement that is the equivalent of saying that low fat milk supplanted orange juice as a beverage.
Folks shoot the Super because they like how it shoots and feels out of the guns they like it in. That's all. That's all that is needed.
tipoc
The top center fire semi auto pistol rounds in the U.S. are 9mm, 40 S&W and the 45 acp. beyond that they are all niche calibers. The size of that niche will grow and retract over the decades as they go in and out of fashion.
There is always an argument over what's more powerful. Which is kinda pointless. There is always something more powerful, in one way or another.
A person shoots the Super because they like what it does and how it does it. Not because it's "better" than any other round. It is arguably better than some rounds at some things, as a hunting caliber it's better than the 9mm at appropriate ranges.
A fella says that the 38 Super was supplanted by the 10mm. A statement that is the equivalent of saying that low fat milk supplanted orange juice as a beverage.
Folks shoot the Super because they like how it shoots and feels out of the guns they like it in. That's all. That's all that is needed.
tipoc
Both the .38S and the 10mm AUTO were "adopted by L.E." for a while, although both the duration and the number of pistols actually in L.E. hands in those calibers varies markedly.
The FBI did briefly issue 1911s chambers in .38S somewhere way back in the '30s or 40s; however, state and local L.E. never followed suit, at least not on any mass scale.
The Bureau formally adopted the 10mm in 1989, after which many state agencies (e.g., Kentucky State Police) and local PDs (e.g., Brick Twp, N.J.) followed suit, either issuing a 10mm pistol as a duty gun or recognizing the 10mm as a departmentally "approved" caliber for an officer's second gun or for off-duty carry - provided, of course, they first qualified with it.
And yes, the .40S&W did eventually supplant the 10mm in L.E. use, but that took a while, and the 10mm's run with L.E. lasted much longer than the .38S.
Even today you can still find departments and agencies that allow officers to carry a 10mm pistol as either an alternative to the issued duty gun or for off-duty carry (again, provided the gun itself meets departmental standards and the officer quals with it).
The .38S? Ah, not so much, ... unless you're channelling Elliot Ness.
That statement is true of the 38 Super, the 10mm, the 41 Magnum, and even the 357 Sig. The latter was issued more widely to law enforcement than either the 10mm or the 38 Super. The Sig round has fallen into niche status and was never close to the top three rounds (9mm, 40 S&W, 45 acp).
10mm has always been a niche round. It has been rescued from oblivion several times in it's life span. First time was by the Colt Delta Elite, next by the FBI's year or so adoption of it where it was chambered by S&W in their guns that they never completed delivery on when it was replaced by the 40 S&W. It was next revived by Glock. It simmered there for several years as a niche caliber for them. Colt and Dan Wesson in the Razorback, again revived it some and that waned. It is currently enjoying another revival. Ruger following S&W is placing it in a wheelgun. S&W did the same years back and production of the 610 has gone on and off for some years. It is an excellent round and revivals are welcome. It's a good round that simmers and occasionally boils up. It's a niche round. 10mms use in law enforcement was never widespread enough or long lasting enough to get it into a position to threaten the 9mm or the 45acp in law enforcement. In law enforcement it was supplanted by the 40 S&W and by the arrival of the Glock 17 in 9mm in the late 1980s.
Folks should note that the 38 Super was used by some law enforcement in the 30's and 40s. Also by the military and by the U.S. Border Patrol up into the 1990s. Should also note that it's small heyday, if you can call it that, in law enforcement was a time when revolvers ruled in law enforcement and no semi auto pistol, including the 1911 in 45 acp, made much of an impact there. The U.S. was a nation of wheelgunners till the late 1970s and that was especially true in law enforcement. For that reason any attempt to compare the use of the 38 Super in law enforcement against the use of other more recent semi auto rounds is not really valid.
Efforts to compare the 10mm and the Super are kinda pointless. The two don't compare. The comparison with the 10mm would be with the 45 acp and the 40 S&W. You'd ask what do you want to do with the gun? You'd go from there. The comparison is in the use you'd put the gun. You look at the gun, the bullet and caliber to the job intended and choose what you like for that.
tipoc
I guess your niches are wider than mine. Yours seem like wide shelves...
Had you added a qualifier, such as "unless a service pistol round..." or something like that, then there would be some validity to the statement.
Absent that, I (and probably others) assume that "a round" = any round, and "any round includes ALL rounds. Including rifle rounds...
Is the .32ACP or the .380 a niche round? Is the .44 Magnum? how about all the rifle rounds that aren't .45-70, .30-40 Krag, .30-03, .30-06, .308Win, or 223Rem?? are ALL those rounds, are they all niche rounds? Some sure are, but others aren't. (like the .30-30 Win)
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Thing is that unless a round is adopted in large numbers by the military or law enforcement it will be a niche caliber. That's not a bad thing, it just is a true thing."
Disagree.
.32 S&W and .38 S&W were HUGELY popular in the US for decades and were never adopted by the military or, very widely, by police.
.38 Special was very popular long before it became a stalwart of police forces nationwide and well before it became a military round.
.44-40... Very popular for decades due to its utility as both a rifle and revolver cartridge.
.357 Magnum. Extremely popular from the outset of its introduction, and it exploded after World War II, yet it was never adopted by the military in large numbers, and its trackrecord of being adopted by police is spotty and didn't really kick off large scale until the 1960s.
.25, .32, and .380 ACP were quite popular in the US for years, again largely because of the guns. .380's still a pretty decent seller.
Obviously being adopted by the military or being picked up widely by police agencies certainly gives a cartridge a boost, but remember, there are a LOT more civilian handgunners than there are police/military, combined.
Edit in...
How could I forget the .22 Long Rifle. Yes, used by police and military in limited training applications, but its use among the civilian population is simply massive.
Disagree.
.32 S&W and .38 S&W were HUGELY popular in the US for decades and were never adopted by the military or, very widely, by police.
.38 Special was very popular long before it became a stalwart of police forces nationwide and well before it became a military round.
.44-40... Very popular for decades due to its utility as both a rifle and revolver cartridge.
.357 Magnum. Extremely popular from the outset of its introduction, and it exploded after World War II, yet it was never adopted by the military in large numbers, and its trackrecord of being adopted by police is spotty and didn't really kick off large scale until the 1960s.
.25, .32, and .380 ACP were quite popular in the US for years, again largely because of the guns. .380's still a pretty decent seller.
Obviously being adopted by the military or being picked up widely by police agencies certainly gives a cartridge a boost, but remember, there are a LOT more civilian handgunners than there are police/military, combined.
Edit in...
How could I forget the .22 Long Rifle. Yes, used by police and military in limited training applications, but its use among the civilian population is simply massive.
I left the .22LR off my list, figuring that its use as a training round by the military (in previous generations) was enough to qualify it as "widespread".
Not that such uae had any effect on its civilian popularity....
During the height of WWII, when US ammo makers suspended production of civilian ammo, in order to concentrate on producing ammo for the military, they kept making 3 civilian rounds (though volume was reduced).
The 12gauge, the .30-30, and the .22LR.
niche round?
I think not....
Not that such uae had any effect on its civilian popularity....
During the height of WWII, when US ammo makers suspended production of civilian ammo, in order to concentrate on producing ammo for the military, they kept making 3 civilian rounds (though volume was reduced).
The 12gauge, the .30-30, and the .22LR.
niche round?
I think not....
Mike Irwin
Staff
"The 12gauge, the .30-30, and the .22LR."
Those three rounds stayed in production (but accessibility was very limited) because they were very likely among the most common civilian chamberings in circulation.
Most gun owners had 1 or more of those.
The primary reason they were kept in production was to ensure that civilians who were participating in civil defense activities (beach patrols, sky watchers, plant/infrastructure guards, etc.) would have ammunition for personally owned firearms.
I've heard that in the first couple of years of the war in order to purchase ammunition you had to have a signed statement from your local civil defense coordinator that noted your civil defense position.
Not everyone who participated in civil defense activities was, or needed to be armed, but enough were that had the military had to supply firearms for them it would have put significant pressure on production for the first couple of years.
Those three rounds stayed in production (but accessibility was very limited) because they were very likely among the most common civilian chamberings in circulation.
Most gun owners had 1 or more of those.
The primary reason they were kept in production was to ensure that civilians who were participating in civil defense activities (beach patrols, sky watchers, plant/infrastructure guards, etc.) would have ammunition for personally owned firearms.
I've heard that in the first couple of years of the war in order to purchase ammunition you had to have a signed statement from your local civil defense coordinator that noted your civil defense position.
Not everyone who participated in civil defense activities was, or needed to be armed, but enough were that had the military had to supply firearms for them it would have put significant pressure on production for the first couple of years.
Why 38 super???
The 38 super is a very good round for the 1911 platform. While the 9mm works it's short for the magazine well and that can cause feeding problems. 9mm ball ammo as typically loaded is also a bit light for the 1911 slide. 38 super, not a problem in 1911s. 10mm is abusive to the 1911 frame in full power loads. There have been problems with frame cracking and modifications were needed to prevent this. The 10mm is a bit harder to control than the 45 from a 1911. The 38 super is much easier to control and works very well in Commander and 4 inch guns that are muzzle flip heavy when chambered in 45acp. While it's true the 38 super won't fit in the most popular 9mm frames like the 40 S&W, in the 1911 platform it is actually superior to the 9mm with loads available running at 9mm +P+ speeds without the pressure problems due to larger 9x23 case volume. So if you already have a 1911 in 45 ACP and want another 1911 or a short 1911, consider the 38 super. Ammo is widely available at under $20 a box and can be reloaded for similar cost compared to 9mm. The 38 super in the 1911 is a classic combination that just works!
The 38 super is a very good round for the 1911 platform. While the 9mm works it's short for the magazine well and that can cause feeding problems. 9mm ball ammo as typically loaded is also a bit light for the 1911 slide. 38 super, not a problem in 1911s. 10mm is abusive to the 1911 frame in full power loads. There have been problems with frame cracking and modifications were needed to prevent this. The 10mm is a bit harder to control than the 45 from a 1911. The 38 super is much easier to control and works very well in Commander and 4 inch guns that are muzzle flip heavy when chambered in 45acp. While it's true the 38 super won't fit in the most popular 9mm frames like the 40 S&W, in the 1911 platform it is actually superior to the 9mm with loads available running at 9mm +P+ speeds without the pressure problems due to larger 9x23 case volume. So if you already have a 1911 in 45 ACP and want another 1911 or a short 1911, consider the 38 super. Ammo is widely available at under $20 a box and can be reloaded for similar cost compared to 9mm. The 38 super in the 1911 is a classic combination that just works!
agt, Yes sir, I do realize the Super is not a 10MM. I visited the Bren Ten factory, and worked SHOT one year with Tom Dornaus and Michael Dixon. Drove up to Gunsite one time with these gentleman, and a supply of Bren Ten pistols and ammo, to shoot with Colonel Cooper. I had an early Bren Ten, and started reloading for the 10 as soon as dies became available. The only jacketed .400" diameter bullet available for reloading at the time was the Remington 180 JSP intended for reloading the 38-40 cartridge. Afterwards, had a succession of 10MM pistols and revolvers. Might say I'm a bit of a 10MM fan
BTW, my reloads were rarely the "light-n-fluffy" type. Always much preferred loads more similar to the old NORMA 200 @ 1200 load, or the contemporary Buffalo Bore 180 grain that averages 1380 FPS in my current S&W 10MM 5" pistol.
BTW, my reloads were rarely the "light-n-fluffy" type. Always much preferred loads more similar to the old NORMA 200 @ 1200 load, or the contemporary Buffalo Bore 180 grain that averages 1380 FPS in my current S&W 10MM 5" pistol.
Attachments
Mike Irwin
Staff
"You do realize that it's still not a 10mm, .... even on a lazy Sunday afternoon with wall-to-wall sunshine."
It's not a 9mm, a 7.62x25, a .44 Auto Mag, or a .50 GI, either.
Not sure why the "It's not a 10mm!!!!" is such a sticking point for you.
It's not a 9mm, a 7.62x25, a .44 Auto Mag, or a .50 GI, either.
Not sure why the "It's not a 10mm!!!!" is such a sticking point for you.
Tough words...but I gotta admit...true, so color me a "curious, cultist".
Currently, I doubt there's a commercial loading (Buffalo Bore maybe), that approaches the Super's standard pressure capability, but hand loading it allows some add'l oomph if desired. While it's a rare day when I push any of my guns to the SAAMI limits, the Super's got that margin of increased performance in a neat package, with the same reliability as my .45's. In my Commanders, it also gives the same magazine round count as the 9mm.
And those nickled Super cases are sure easier to see in the short-mowed fescue that covers my farm range and their extra length, over 9mm, makes them easier for arthritic fingers to manipulate through the Dillons.
Rod
The variation in available brass might be a reason why not?
I'd had a few issues with cases sticking in the chamber, apparently because they had expanded and subsequently been resized multiple times, resulting in an obvious ridge running around the case forward of the extractor groove.
I bought a small-base sizing die, hoping to size down below the offending area and salvage 300-400 cases.
While I was aware of Starline's rimless .38 Super Comp, and was keeping an eye out for them, I discovered two other rimless variations; one marked ".38 Super RL", presumably Rim Less, and another one, sneakily marked ".38 Super +P R", to indicate Rimless.
I culled about twenty of those three types of brass, and if the case is a bit oversized, an undersized rim would certainly not help extraction.
I'd had a few issues with cases sticking in the chamber, apparently because they had expanded and subsequently been resized multiple times, resulting in an obvious ridge running around the case forward of the extractor groove.
I bought a small-base sizing die, hoping to size down below the offending area and salvage 300-400 cases.
While I was aware of Starline's rimless .38 Super Comp, and was keeping an eye out for them, I discovered two other rimless variations; one marked ".38 Super RL", presumably Rim Less, and another one, sneakily marked ".38 Super +P R", to indicate Rimless.
I culled about twenty of those three types of brass, and if the case is a bit oversized, an undersized rim would certainly not help extraction.
Having purchased my share of factory ammo, and reloaded the Super for many years, I thought I was familiar with all, or at least most, things 38 Super. But I've haven't run into the rimless "RL" or "+P R" brass yet. The only brass I've purchased to reload the Super for the last several years has been the near-rimless Starline .38 Super Comp. Good stuff. My STI and a Colt required an extractor adjustment to use the SC brass. My Kimber didn't require any adjustments to function flawlessly with the regular Super brass, Super Comp brass, or substituting a 9MM barrel, 9X19 brass. Anyway, a fun cartridge for the ballistically curious, maybe even for cultists on a lazy Sunday afternoon