Why not a .38 Super?
- Thread starter gmarr
- Start date
44caliberkid
New member
I bought a Colt Govm't model 38 Super in 1976. 12 - 14 inch groups, if you can call that a group, every empty case was split down the side. Thought about sending it to a custom shop for barrel/ bushing, but ended up trading it for an H&K P9S.
Mike Irwin
Staff
For a supposedly near extinct oddball there are a lot of gun makers making 38 supers.
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Mike Irwin
Staff
Colt
EAA
CZ
Rock Island
Dan Wesson
Sig Sauer, although they may be out of productionthey are still available
Para USA
Les Baer
And yeah, manufacturing something that doesn't sell is a time honored business model guaranteed to make any company successful as all get out.
EAA has been selling the Witness in .38 Super for at least 10 to 15 years. When I bought my 10mm Witness I almost bought a Super instead.
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EAA
CZ
Rock Island
Dan Wesson
Sig Sauer, although they may be out of productionthey are still available
Para USA
Les Baer
And yeah, manufacturing something that doesn't sell is a time honored business model guaranteed to make any company successful as all get out.
EAA has been selling the Witness in .38 Super for at least 10 to 15 years. When I bought my 10mm Witness I almost bought a Super instead.
Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
Colt came to Browning in 1896 or so and asked him to begin designing a semi-automatic pistol for the U.S. Military. It was clear by then that the major powers of Europe were done with revolvers and moving to semi-automatic pistols.
The Europeans had moved first in seeing the advantages in smokeless powder and in semi-automatic pistols. There was Borchardt C93 pistol in the 30 Borchardt round (85 grains at 1280 fps more or less). The Mauser C96 in 30 Mauser and others. The 9mm was introduced in Georg Luger's gun about 1902 after the German Army complained of the lack of shocking power in the lighter 30 Luger.
Browning and Colt introduced the Model of 1900 and sent it to the U.S. Army. They followed this up with an improved Military Model of 1902 as well. The guns were chambered in a new round, 38 acp. It was introduced about 1897. It moved a 130 gr. pill at between 1200-1300 fps from a 6" barrel. Browning and Colt were not all in on the new smokeless powder and Browning brought out the case as a semi rim. So the case was long. Longer than what was being used in Europe which he was well aware of. He also designed the round to work at a lower pressure than the lighter rounds being used in Europe for semi-autos. Remember it was 1896 and no one was using a pistol round over 100 grains.
http://www.coltautos.com/1900.htm
But...the guns were not strong enough for that velocity and power. So a lower power of about 1050 fps was settled on for those pistols. If you study the construction of those early guns you can see why.
Meanwhile about 1905 the U.S. military told Colt that they wanted a new gun in 45 caliber and not in 38 caliber which they believed lacked sufficient stopping power. So Browning adapted the design he had for a new 45 caliber round, the 45 acp and a gun to go with it. The case was the same overall length as the 38 acp. After more trials and changes it became the 1911.
Meanwhile sales of the guns chambered in 38 acp fell. So in the late 1920s Colt decided to chamber the 38 acp in the 1911.
They named the gun the Super 38 They announced it was chambered in 38 acp. The 1911 was a much stronger gun than the earlier Browning pistols in 38acp. The velocity and pressure of the 38 acp was kicked up some for the 1911. Colt let the earlier guns die on the vine. It wasn't until some years later that manufacturers began to call the 38 acp. the 38 Super.
The diameter of the 38 acp and 38 Super is .358. For 38 Special/357 Magnum it is .357. In recent years manufacturers use the barrel diameter for the 38 Super as for the 9mm, .355, saves them money.
Until after the second world war few guns in 9mm were imported into the U.S. The BHP was never imported in any numbers at all till well after the war.
The first American made gun to be chambered in 9mm was the Colt Commander with an alloy frame introduced in 1948-49. It sold very well in 45 acp and 38 Super. It did not sell as well in 9mm.
The next 9mm gun made in U.S. by an was by S&W in 1954.
The Europeans had moved first in seeing the advantages in smokeless powder and in semi-automatic pistols. There was Borchardt C93 pistol in the 30 Borchardt round (85 grains at 1280 fps more or less). The Mauser C96 in 30 Mauser and others. The 9mm was introduced in Georg Luger's gun about 1902 after the German Army complained of the lack of shocking power in the lighter 30 Luger.
Browning and Colt introduced the Model of 1900 and sent it to the U.S. Army. They followed this up with an improved Military Model of 1902 as well. The guns were chambered in a new round, 38 acp. It was introduced about 1897. It moved a 130 gr. pill at between 1200-1300 fps from a 6" barrel. Browning and Colt were not all in on the new smokeless powder and Browning brought out the case as a semi rim. So the case was long. Longer than what was being used in Europe which he was well aware of. He also designed the round to work at a lower pressure than the lighter rounds being used in Europe for semi-autos. Remember it was 1896 and no one was using a pistol round over 100 grains.
http://www.coltautos.com/1900.htm
But...the guns were not strong enough for that velocity and power. So a lower power of about 1050 fps was settled on for those pistols. If you study the construction of those early guns you can see why.
Meanwhile about 1905 the U.S. military told Colt that they wanted a new gun in 45 caliber and not in 38 caliber which they believed lacked sufficient stopping power. So Browning adapted the design he had for a new 45 caliber round, the 45 acp and a gun to go with it. The case was the same overall length as the 38 acp. After more trials and changes it became the 1911.
Meanwhile sales of the guns chambered in 38 acp fell. So in the late 1920s Colt decided to chamber the 38 acp in the 1911.
They named the gun the Super 38 They announced it was chambered in 38 acp. The 1911 was a much stronger gun than the earlier Browning pistols in 38acp. The velocity and pressure of the 38 acp was kicked up some for the 1911. Colt let the earlier guns die on the vine. It wasn't until some years later that manufacturers began to call the 38 acp. the 38 Super.
The diameter of the 38 acp and 38 Super is .358. For 38 Special/357 Magnum it is .357. In recent years manufacturers use the barrel diameter for the 38 Super as for the 9mm, .355, saves them money.
Until after the second world war few guns in 9mm were imported into the U.S. The BHP was never imported in any numbers at all till well after the war.
The first American made gun to be chambered in 9mm was the Colt Commander with an alloy frame introduced in 1948-49. It sold very well in 45 acp and 38 Super. It did not sell as well in 9mm.
The next 9mm gun made in U.S. by an was by S&W in 1954.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Springfield also offered .38 Super 1911s until fairly recently.
Just had to share this advertisement that I found...
It's from sometime in the mid 1920s (Ford Trimotor introduced 1925) to probably no later than 1932...
OK, a little research shows that Transcontinental and Western Airways (later TWA) came about as a merger in 1930, and the Lindburgh Line started operations as the first coast-to-coast all airline travel in late 1930.
All the talk about arming pilots over the years... Back in the day it was apparently standard company procedure.
Just had to share this advertisement that I found...
It's from sometime in the mid 1920s (Ford Trimotor introduced 1925) to probably no later than 1932...
OK, a little research shows that Transcontinental and Western Airways (later TWA) came about as a merger in 1930, and the Lindburgh Line started operations as the first coast-to-coast all airline travel in late 1930.
All the talk about arming pilots over the years... Back in the day it was apparently standard company procedure.
Dragline45
New member
I'd love one, but cost and scarcity of ammo alone steer me away and I settled on a 9mm 1911. The .38 super will be a bit more reliable than the 9mm due to the 9mm being too short a round for the 1911 design. As a result 9mm 1911's use a longer ejector which has been known to cause problems, also the mags have a spacer in the back to push the rounds forward and make up for it's short cartridge length. Many will replace their 9mm ejectors with the shorter .38 super ejectors and have zero problems, though so far I haven't had an issue with mine and will leave it as is. As far as ballistics .38 super and 9mm are pretty much identical with a slight edge to the .38 so no real advantage of one over the other there. I bought my 9mm 1911 strictly as a range gun, so ammo cost was my determining factor. If this were to be used for anything serious, I'd go for the .38 Super over the 9mm, and the .45 over either.
peacefulgary
New member
I like odd duck calibers, but I really can't see any good reason for the .38 Super.
The bullet itself will be bigger and heavier than a 9mm Luger bullet, but with no real benefit.
The bullet itself will be bigger and heavier than a 9mm Luger bullet, but with no real benefit.
Not seeing where the .38 Super is superior "for anything serious" over the 10mm AUTO or the .45acp on the same platform.
Look, if you like and shoot the .38S, that's great, but it's been superseded (no pun intended) by the 10mm, and in terms of actual use in L.E. or civvy hands, the .38S never did eclipse the .45acp on the 1911-platform.
Arguably, the .357Sig is preferable if what you want is a high-pressure cartridge topped with 9mm/.355-cal slugs in a pistol that's still concealable and uses hi-cap mags. ... in other words, something like a Glock 32 or 33.
Today, the .38S is little more than a lazy Sunday afternoon 'hobby cartridge' for the curious and the cultists to enjoy for a brief period of self-entertainment at the range.
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stephen426
New member
There are a LOT of 1911 makers out there that make them in 9mm now. I have a Springfield Armory Loaded and it has been perfect. I think they have figured out the kinks or else no one would buy or carry them.
Bill DeShivs
New member
I find it humorous that the Super has been in existence for about a hundred years, but people think it has been superseded by 10mm, .40, and .357 SIG.
Those 3 cartridges are pretty unpopular after having been around 1/4 the time the Super has.
Also- remember that just because a cartridge is more powerful, does not make it better. This is a fact lost on many.
Those 3 cartridges are pretty unpopular after having been around 1/4 the time the Super has.
Also- remember that just because a cartridge is more powerful, does not make it better. This is a fact lost on many.
Can't see why you're calling the 40 S&W unpopular.
Bill DeShivs
New member
40 S&W was a "flash in the pan" caliber, and is becoming less popular every day.
I'm sure it will be around for a long time.
I'm sure it will be around for a long time.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Today, the .38S is little more than a lazy Sunday afternoon 'hobby cartridge' for the curious and the cultists to enjoy for a brief period of self-entertainment at the range."
Won't really disagree with that.
But thank goodness so many mainstream manufacturers are catering to the curious and cultists and offering... 10mms...
Won't really disagree with that.
But thank goodness so many mainstream manufacturers are catering to the curious and cultists and offering... 10mms...
Not only that, but more guns are currently being made in 10mm AUTO that at any time since the cartridge was first introduced in 1983 - remember, that was waaay back in a decade called 'the '80s'?
Not so much for the .38S ... The length of time a cartridge has been in existence bears no necessary relation to its popularity.