Why not a .38 Super?

[44 AMP]

nobody mentioned it's silly semi-rimmed case? That "feature" takes away from the round,

That's a commonly held opinion, today. For the first half century or so, it didn't matter very much.

the semi-rim case is a holdover from the early days, but has become essentially like the human appendix. Serving no real purpose anymore, and a potential source of problems.

All of Browning's early case designs have that semi-rim. The .25, .32, and the .38. Because, at the time they were designed, it was not a certain thing that chambering on the case mouth would work reliably. The idea was new, and rather unproven at that time.

By the time Browning designed the .45, the rimless headspace on the case mouth concept had proven itself in the field, and so the .45ACP is rimless.

The .38 Super, while "designed" a couple decades later, has the semi rim because it was created using the .38ACP case, with no changes to the case, only to the powder load, increasing the pressure. At that time (1929) it would have made good sense to drop the semi rim, and use a true rimless case, BUT, what "everybody knows" today wasn't something everybody knew (and knew they wanted) back then.

While the .38 Super was never hugely popular in the US, it has been very popular south of the border in Central and South American countries, many of which have laws forbidding "military" calibers, so the 9mm and the .45 were out, leaving the .38 Super to dominate private ownership in those places.

Also note that, until the adoption of the 9mm by the US govt, the .38 Super was as, if not more popular in private sales.

Today, we are inundated with choices that we didn't have in the past, and its easy to forget that this was not always so. There were decades when the only US made 9mm was the Colt Government Model and in those guns, the 9mm was decidedly inferior in performance to the .38 Super. later the Colt had to compete with the S&W 39. The only double stack pistol in 9mm was the Browning Hi Power (P.35), and it wasn't made in the US.

Later S&W introduced their double stack model 59, but it wasn't until a decade or so after that when the "wondernine" explosion of designs took place, leading to where we are now, with lots and lots of choices that simply didn't exist in the past.

The main reasons the FBI didn't choose the .38 Super in the fallout from the 86 Miami massacre are two. The first one is politics/prestige. And the other is that the Super didn't fit in the 9mm frame guns and the .40S&W did.

 

[Sevens]

That is a PHENOMENAL post and explanation of the .38 Super and of the semi-rimmed case. And I love the angle and use of "human appendix", that is crafty and effective writing.

Hear, hear!

 

[MoArk Willy]

I've had a Taurus PT38 for about 15 years.
With factory ammo I would call it in the middle of a 9mm and 357.
Perhaps a 9mm magnum would be a good description.
It's a snappy round. Ammo can be both hard to find and pricey. I reload my own so it's not too big of an issue.
I'm quite happy with the gun.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

... a solution in search of a problem.

This is the lamest challenge to every new cartridge, even after the fact. Even if things like technological development or breaking new ground didn't have merit on their own, this challenge is usually wrong.

Once upon a time, .45 acp was the big deal. It worked fairly well against enemy soldiers and ordinary bad guys. However, it wasn't exactly famous for its penetration. With bad guys riding in cars and starting to wear armor that was somewhat effective against the .32s, .38s, and .45 acp of the day; THERE WAS A QUESTION! The .38 Super might not have been perfect but it was certainly an answer. Of course, the .357 magnum we all know and love today would show up as an arguably better answer shortly thereafter.

 

[armoredman]

44 AMP, great post, thank you. I've wanted a 38 Super here and there, but never managed to get one.

 

[Brit]

The Israeli armed people in the Rome Terrorist attack, (Teens in Burkas) with concealed AKs. Were armed with Beretta .380s, the ban on Military calibres caused that choice, I often wondered why they never went to .38 Super?

Not a military calibre? The big loss of life, caused by a Police Officer freezing on the full auto trigger, on his Beretta sub gun! I recollect.

When the search for the Security Guys came up empty? The El Al plane that left after this event Empty? Might have been a clue!

 

[CDW4ME]

10mm > 38 Super is why.
In 1911 platform 10mm is better.
Better defined as bigger, more powerful.

 

[rodfac]

I've got one too...a .38 Super in a Colt Combat Commander...also fits with perfect reliability, my Ruger CMD. It's a great caliber, originally hindered, accuracy wise, by its head spacing off the small semi-rim, but that's been corrected, as far as I know, in guns produced in the last 20 years.

Mine is more accurate in .38 than the original .45 ACP barrels that were supplied with the guns. In the early 80's I found a Series 70 slide and barrel in .38 Super through "Shotgun News" (also one in 9mm) and bought it for less than $200. They were a drop in fit on my .45 Combat Commander...but I did have to change out the ejector to get reliability...no other mods other than magazines were necessary.

As to the cartridge itself, it's a handloader's proposition if it's true potential is wanted. The original advertised a 130 gr. FMJ at 1300 fps, if memory serves...and was a great improvement over the 9mm Luger, short of surplus submachine gun ammunition. Nowadays, the Super's not loaded anywhere near those stats by the major suppliers, but you may find uploaded stuff from Buffalo or one of the others.

You can get to 1350 fps with 125 gr. JHPs from a 5" bbl. according to Sierra's Infinity Reloading Manual, with Clays, Power Pistol, WSF or AA #7, but I don't push the envelope to that extent. I have seen 1250 fps, however, for a 5-round average, wink out on the chrono screen from my 4.25" bbl. Ejection was just short of spectacular...10-15', stacked nicely in a pile, but too much for me, as I'd found better accuracy down around 1200 fps with consequent less wear on the gun and shooter. BTW, good ear protection is mandatory if you don't want to be questioning your better half with a, "wasssat" all evening long.

Lastly, I do like nickle plated cases in this caliber, which are a hellofa lot easier to find in the bush-hogged meadow grass where I do the bulk of my shooting.

HTH's and congrats on a nice addition to your arsenal. Rod

 

[P-990]

I'd argue the .38 Super was never truly mainstream at any point in it's life. In a 1911, it's overshadowed by the ubiquitous .45 ACP, and to an extent the muscle of the 10mm Auto. To CDW4ME's point, "bigger is better" permeates so much of people's thinking. I think people see the .38 Super on a 1911 and feel the same way they do about a V-6 Mustang; "Oh, cute, where's the rest of it?"

That said, I have a stainless Colt Competition in .38 Super that I just absolutely LOVE to shoot. It's very mild in recoil, flat shooting and definitely gets people's attention at the range. Mine is fairly accurate and not at all picky about magazines. Any 9 or 10 round magazine I've found feeds 100%, though I have one magazine that doesn't like to lock the slide back on empty. (And it's been a bit fussy about what bullet profiles will feed 100%.)

Ammo is far less common than for the .45 ACP or 10mm Auto, no question. Magazine capacity and ammo choices are limited compared to 9mm Luger and .40 S&W. It's out there, just not sitting on every ammo counter shelf.

But if you just like the cartridge, just want something different, and understand what you're getting going into it, it's a lot of fun. I look at my .38 Super as a 9x19mm +P that can handle 130-147 grain bullets with ease.

(Yet after all of that, I also have a 1911 in .45 ACP due to the much bigger selection of JHP ammo, and having an affinity for big-bore handgun rounds. My particular .45 has even proven to be less fussy about what bullet shapes it will feed.)

 

[briandg]

The reason that it never took off is simple, it is all due to the 9mm. world wide, people have used the 9mm. We drank the koolade.

The 9mm was originally built in 1902, even before the 1911 was available. The 9mm semiauto was available from europe as an alternative to a 1911 to the public, for anyone who chose not to own a .45. back at those times, the focus wasn't on ballistics and power by the public, not really. You couldn't have asked a guy to tell you the velocities that his five gun armory produced. He bought them all based on instinct and advice. The super came out in the twenties, right? while we had semiauto 9 mm pistols available, the super only came in the 1911 frame, iirc. even back then, people who would have bought a super would have been scorned by .45 shooters.

Among the people who wanted a semiauto, it eventually came down to only a few choices. 9mm, or a .45 in 1911, or a super in 1911. In fact, ballistics for the super are not amazingly higher than for a 9mm, higher, but not so high that it is a game changer. IMO.

When the hi power came out in 1935, now, the 9mm had high capacity, and there were, and still are people who set aside caliber for capacity. several designs of other 9mm guns were also imported.

The 9mm was the world wide military and civilian handgun, the .45 was mostly an american product. The super couldn't possibly have survived. But, that doesn't mean that it's not a good gun, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't exist.

 

[44 AMP]

The 9mm was originally built in 1902, even before the 1911 was available. The 9mm semiauto was available from europe as an alternative to a 1911 to the public,.....

There's a couple of points I think you're missing. One is that the popularity of the calibers is directly tied to the available guns, and another is that the 9mm was very, very actively and effectively marketed to the world, and the .45 was not.

Ok, yes, 1902 for the origin of the 9mm Luger. But don't confuse the 9mm of the past with what's around today. First off, there THE 9mm, the Luger pistol. Marketed world wide, and adopted by quite a few countries, including Germany, in 1906 (Navy) and 1908 (Army). The Pistole Parabellum. The original, and for many years the ONLY 9mm Luger.

Up until the Browning Hi Power (and so named for its capacity, not its enegy) in 1935, the Luger pistol was the primary pistol if you wanted a 9mm. Yes, there were Astras, and Stars, and a few other European autos but they found very little commercial success in the US, which was still primarily revolver country.

And mostly people didn't get a Luger because it was a 9mm, they got a Luger to get a Luger, and 9mm was the most common chambering.

And note the ballistics of the original 9mm Luger, a 124gr bullet at 1050fps from a 4" barrel. Shortly before WW I, the load was changed to a 115gr @ 1150fps (4")

The .38 Super (1929) drove a 130gr bullet at 1275-1300fps (5") some say that's a significant difference from the 9mm Luger. Had it not been an improvement over the 9mm Luger, it wouldn't have gotten out of the gate.

The commonly held story is that the Super was developed to give law enforcement something with better penetrating ability against cars, and the bullet proof vests of the day. I think this is more marketing than actuality, because, while the .38 Super is a much better penetrator than the .45ACP, most lawmen of the era were packing revolvers and in just a handful of years, (1935) the .357 Magnum came out, basically not only surpassing the Super by a considerable margin, but also in the well known and accepted revolver, not a "new fangled" semi auto.

That's what killed LEO interest in the Super, as much as anything. And, remember the 9mm Luger was around the whole time. But it wasn't the round chosen, either.

There are a very few Tommyguns in .38 Super, which is kind of a shame, as a Tommygun in .38 Super would be much superior penetrating car bodies than one in .45ACP.

So, ok, the Super ran the race, but was always at the back of the pack as far as sales went. But so was the 9mm (in the US) for a very long time.

 

[O4L]

I tried to buy a box of .38 Super ammo at a gun store, the guy brought a box of .38 Special and said, "It works in all .38s, that's why it's special".

That's one of the funniest things I've read on the internet in a while!

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Much is made of the inaccuracy of the Super .38 (correct name) because it headspaced on the rim. Even so, the gun was more accurate than 90% of shooters. The "inaccuracy" only became important when the Super was used in competition. Before 1980, the 9mm was considered a "foreign" cartridge in the US, and was not particularly popular. Only after development of reliable expanding bullets did the 9mm become popular.

 

[Creek Henry]

I think the existence of the 40 have made the older round moribund sadly. It was a good idea years ago but redundant now

 

[74A95]

Colt introduced the "Super 38" Pistol in 1929. It was chambered for the 38 Automatic, as noted in their ads. The most potent ammo at the time ran a 130 grain bullet at 1190 fps, or as Colt put in their ads, about 1200 fps. Starting around 1933 Remington upped the speed of the 130 grain bullet to 1300 fps, and at some point people started to call the cartridge the 38 Super to distinguish it from the 38 Automatic, which was downgraded in performance and meant only for the older pistol designs.

A review of the new Colt pistol was written by Major J. S. Hatcher and published in the May 1929 issue of The American Rifleman (Reproduced in Sheldon, 1997). Major Hatcher refers to the .38 Automatic cartridge. He does not mention anything about a new cartridge or new loadings of the .38 Automatic. His velocity listings for the “… 130-grain bullet for the .38 A. C. P.” are consistent with Sheldon (1997) and Colt advertisements, and lists them as 1190, 1150, 1126 and 1080 fps from different makers. Major Hatcher piles heaps of praise on the .38 Automatic cartridge, which he also refers to as the .38 A.C.P and .38 Military (deriving this name from the 1902 .38 Military pistol) noting its exceptional velocity and power that is far superior to anything else that exists at the time, including the 9mm Luger. The point here is that the cartridge has been around for quite some time.

Sheldon, Douglas G. 1997. Colt's Super .38, The Production History From 1929 Through 1971. Quick Vend, Inc. Willernie, MN.

 

[Trevor]

Congrats on your purchase. It is a cool caliber and works well in a Government or Commander 1911. I always find ammo for it in the big box stores, both target and personal protection. It remains a popular cartridge, yes, although perhaps one with a cult following. It goes well with handloading too, and it is a good reason to take up handloading as a pastime. Enjoy. We all should be buying more cool guns and calibers for the sheer joy of doing so. One does not always have to be practical.

 

[Mike Irwin]

The .38 Super was, in large part, developed due to police calling for higher powered firearms that could do a better job of defeating automobiles sheet metal during the hay-day of the Depression-era crime spree.

S&W responded to the same call by bringing out the .38-44 Heavy Duty series of revolvers and the uploaded .38 Special HD round.

 

[stephen426]

I believe that cost of ammo has a lot do do with it being less popular. If you reload, the .38 Super can be economical to shoot, but low demand leads to higher price. It is the same reason why .380 ACP and .32 ACP cost more than 9mm, even though they use less material. The .38 Super has seen a slight resurgence and there are a few more factory loads available for it now. https://www.ammoman.com/38-super The cheapest on Ammoman.com is still $23.25 which is still more than 10mm. The 10mm is significantly more powerful as it pushes a bullet that is almost 50% heavier at around the same velocity. Buying the 10mm in bulk can drop the price to around $17.50. That is still considerably more than 9mm which averages $10 or .45 ACP which averages around $14-$15 for 50.

I've thought about adding a 10mm a few times, but I have no real need for it and that would mean yet another round to stock. I'll stick to .22 LR, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and .223 for now.

 

[jmr40]

The 38 Super was invented to solve a specific problem. In the 1920's and 30's standard 38 Special and 45 ACP were failing to get the job done, especially if they had to penetrate barriers.

Today the 38 Super only beats 9mm+p by about 50 fps. The 357 Sig matches or beats it in a more compact gun.

It's a cool old round with some history, but from a practical perspective I don't see it ever being popular.

 

[T. O'Heir]

"...whoever names cartridges not be trusted..." Commercial cartridges are named by MBA marketing types. Military cartridges are named by committees of assorted colonels who really don't have enough to do.
Trying to figure out why either bunch does what they do can give you an aneurysm. The military at least have a guideline to follow.
"...a solution in search of a problem..." There's a lot of that in Firearms Land. Also primarily comes from MBA marketing types. All those No$ler named cartridges for example.