The 1911--this is ridiculous!

[JamesD]

Am I sure that's eough experience? Nope, I'm not sure of that at all. You never know whether you have adequate experience until you call on that experience.

A better question might be "Are you willing to bet your life on it?"

My answer to that is... I don't carry, except in combat. At the present time, I'm a recreational shooter in my off time, and a professional shooter in my on time.

I will say since my class was first introduced to the M16 in basic training, I've never once forgotten to switch from Safe to Semi. It comes automatically, as part of the "Start pulling trigger" action. Same for switching it back to Safe. That's what training is for.

However, my point seems to still stand. Since I first read this thread, I've tried and found that I cannot hold my 1911 in such a way that it can be reasonably expected that I might try to pull the trigger, without engaging the grip safety. As for the thumb safety... it's one of those things that you have to train for, and train right with the right technique. It's never failed me--not that I've ever used it in a gunfight.

 

[guntotin_fool]

I have two pre war colts and one navy colt that got lost on it's way home from rafetti brazil, one pre series 70 and a series 70. Only thing I have done to any of them is the pre 70 and the 70 have gotten longer triggers installed and the 70 has a ed brown grip safety/beavertail. ALL of them feed what ever you load the magazine with and ALL of them go boom each and everytime you pull the trigger.

As to not penetrating body armor. I have asked people I know who have done it and they say aim above or below it to kill but even people wearing it go down when shot, the impact is just too much.

I have several other pistols as well including the bastard offspring of ParaOrd. l have lugers and p-38's, smiths by the pound, a couple of nice colt revolvers and a sig, some blackhawks and some other toys and I come back the the ides that guns i feel comfortable carrying are Colts or para's in the mold of a 1911. I had a glock but when it blew up in my hand with factory ammo I said no more.

 

[Handy]

I think you also have a rich fantasy life and have never fired a gun.

 

[Revoman]

JamesD, As a Rangemaster for a large California Police Department, I've seen people bobble the grip, and not get the thumb safety disengaged, under stress. I'm not talking about casual plincking at the local range. I teach the 1911 to police officers who want to carry it as a duty sidearm. My classes are difficult and I place the officers under stress. Although, I cannot duplicate the stress of a gunfight, I come close, using 1911 simunition guns in practical simulated gunfight scenarios!!

The 1911 is not for everybody. The point I'm trying to make here is you need to practice with the darn thing getting your muscle memory down pat more so than other weapon systems. Just because a cop carry's a gun doesn't mean he's good with it, although he should be!!

 

[JamesD]

Revoman, you do make a good point. Mr Murphy certainly does like to stick his nose into high-stress situations, and that's always a bad thing. Practice, practice, and more practice is the key to reliable success.

When I first got to Alaska, I discussed outdoor activities with some of my coworkers who've lived here for many years. One thing you have to consider when hunting, camping, fishing, hiking, etc, in AK is bear protection. Since I said some of those activities were things I planned to do while I'm up here, they asked whether and what kind of firearms I had, and when I told them, they said "Don't take that gun for bears. Take a double action revolver."

It took me a minute of thinking to figure out why... revolvers don't jam, and if they FTF, you just pull the trigger again.

So, going back to the original point of this thread... I think the 1911 is a good standard reference for many things, but not necessarily all things.

 

[texmex]

I don't currently own a 1911 type but I have. I have used one in a gunfight. I won. I usually carry a revolver. I'm not a devotee of the 1911 but I do respect them. The enduring qualitys of the 1911 are brought to light by thinking of it this way.

Recently the LAPD SWAT team picked 1911s as their sidearm. Out of all the handguns in the world, they decided that the 1911 was the best available for their needs. What other mechanical device available in 1911 would stand a chance of being picked by a modern combat unit. Can you imagine a SWAT team trading it its M16s and MP5s for Model 8 Remington rifles? Would they trade their kevlar helmets for picklehaubes? Would you be willing to go up against an F14 in a 1911 era airplane? There was no such thing as a "fighter plane" in 1911. Would you like to race a 1911 Cadillac against even the cheapest available 2005 model car? I can call anywhere in the world with my pocket sized cell phone, a 1911 two way radio was the size of an 18 wheeler and needed a tower for its antennae.

The point being that there has been tremendous change in technology since 1911 in just about every field. Men have been on the moon. We send space ships to Mars and beyond. We have refridgeration, air-conditioning, CAT scans, Jumbo Jets, computers, synthetic fabric, micro surgery, lasers, antibiotics, freeways, the internet! What else that was available in 1911 is still state of the art? Stetson hats, cowboy boots and the 1911.

I rest my case.

 

[JohnKSa]

It could have been designed in 1800 and made of solid gold and it would still be ridiculous for a gun author to spend half an article that's a review of another gun talking about it.

BTW, the world of firearms moves much more slowly than most other industries. There are many firearm designs from around the turn of the century that are still commercially viable today. Many hunting rifles are essentially variants of an 1898 design and the list of today's common calibers that are about 100 years old would be surprisingly long. While the 1911 has showed good endurance (even in the world of firearms), comparing it to technologies from other industries is a bit misleading.

 

[Handy]

What other mechanical device available in 1911 would stand a chance of being picked by a modern combat unit.

How about a bolt action rifle basically designed in the 1840 and "perfected" in 1896? What else is a Rem. 700 sniper?

Or how about the direct descendant of the S&W 1905 revolver in stainless (686), as used by the SEALs?

How old is the standard pump shotgun design?


Give me a minute, I'm sure I'll think of more.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"What other mechanical device available in 1911 would stand a chance of being picked by a modern combat unit."

The M-2 heavy machine gun. It's been in standard military service since the early 1920s -- longer than the 1911.

 

[texmex]

50 BMG came out originally as a water cooled version in 1927. It was not available in 1911. But it is a great gun and cartridge and has had and extremely long service life with no end in sight.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Fuh, I read that question wrong. Elder age is creeping up...

 

[warhammer357]

Whether you want to admit it or not, the fact of the matter is that the 1911 is THE benchmark for all combat sidearms, period.
The new technique of the pistol grew up AROUND it.
Go back 75 years and the nea plus ultra of combat weapons was the N frame .357, but the 1911 was there and popular. Shoot ahead 50 years and the K frame was the ultimate fighting handgun, but the 1911 was still there.
Now, nobody but us dinosaurs carry a K frame or N frame magnum, and the 1911 is more popular than ever. Its so popular that even Smith and Wesson makes it now.
Look at the state of the art for combat autos in 1965 and compare todays guns. Nobody uses the heel clip magazine release anymore, because the 1911 style button release was faster and more ergonomic.
Is it fair to compare a Croation made Glock clone to a Colt .45? No.
It should be compared to a Glock or a Sigma.
But don't be dissen the 1911 boys. Its still the best thing going in an all around fighting pistol design.

 

[Blind Tree Frog]

Whether you want to admit it or not, the fact of the matter is that the 1911 is THE benchmark for all combat sidearms, period.

and I'm still waiting to hear why. So far all I've heard is that it's a short, straight trigger pull. Which I would give you, except that even a circular trigger pull (as is with every other gun) is straight if the pull is short enough. And most all single action pulls are short enough for it to be a straight pull.

I'm not trying to dismiss the 1911 here, I just honestly want to know why this believe about it being a god among guns is so prevalent.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Why?

Well of course we know why, Frog!

It was ORDAINED to be, from the GunGod himself, who smote the ground with his rod, wherein popped out his beloved designer John MOSES Browning.

John MOSES Browning did create, and GunGod was well pleased.

"You are my beloved creation, in whom I am most pleased," he said to John MOSES Browning in a vision in the firey forge.

"Yet, I have for you inspiration for the one true gun, the 1911, which you shall design in my image, and unto you I give you these seven commandments:

1. You shall have no other guns before this one.

2. You shall design no other handguns -- to attempt to create more than perfection is to create an idol.

3. You shall not take the 1911 in vain.

4. Honor your 1911 every day, it is holy.

5. You shall not murder, lest it be with a 1911.

6. You shall not commit adultery by owning other guns.

7. You shall covet no other guns."


To which John MOSES Browning supposedly said,

"Hey Gun God, that's nice, but can you come back later? I'm working on the design for my M2."

 

[Blind Tree Frog]

You know, if he did it in 9mm, there would of been 17 commandments.

 

[Handy]

BTF,

The key to the 1911s attraction isn't so much why it works, just how. Any number of triggers could be as good, the 1911 uses a linear set up that no match pistol does, but that isn't important. It came out working well.

With a 1911 you get a gun with the trigger and safety in the right place for easy cocked and locked usage. It is happenstance, but as it happens no one else has designed a big bore that addresses the same balance the 1911 does.

If the Army had accepted the 1910 version of Brownings vision, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[Boats]

I see BTF still doesn't understand that the enduring popularity of the 1911 is primarily built on its trigger system first and handling qualities second. Aside from the HKP7, I have yet to try a trigger that compares favorably, but the P7 remains a curiousity, mainly because of its price. The SIG P210 is close too, but the connection between the trigger and sear is bridged by a solid piece of metal, which though different, works like an almost linear linkage between the trigger and the sear.

There is precious little on the market today that rivals the short trigger pull, short reset, and repeatability shot to shot, of the 1911A1 trigger. The trigger on a 1911A1 is more like a button than a lever, as a hinged trigger is. That nothing else of widespread popularity uses a stirrup style trigger with a leaf sear spring matters not since it works. No amount of double action magic can equal the smoothness of the single action 1911A1 trigger. Properly set up, a 1911's trigger pretravel, overtravel, and reset can be under five or so millimeters total in both directions and remain consistent for thousands of rounds.

Yes, it takes more practice to make the C&L 1911A1 manual of arms work on the level of instinct compared to "front sight and press," but almost no work is required of the shooter to master the 1911s trigger as a trade-off. I have spent countless rounds downrange and innumerable hours dry firing mastering various double action pulls on pistols and revolvers to keep from "jerking" the trigger. This problem is non-existent on all of my 1911s. I happily trade off building muscle memory to flick off a safety to obtain the easy benefit of the greatest trigger ever put into a handgun.

Apparently, I am in agreement with a great many people who think likewise, a good percentage of whom use their 1911A1s in occupations where they shoot for their lives at times.

In closing, I agree that it is ridiculous to read at length about the 1911 in a piece about another gun. Passing mention might not be inappropriate as, rightly or wrongly, the 1911 is the American benchmark in pistols.

Also, I misspoke eariler. Yes ACP has been used on earlier Colt automatic pistols. What I had meant to convey is that the 1911 has become the namesake for the .45 version of the ACP. It is the "C" in the .45 ACP. (And yes, I know that the Army largely developed the round and that Savage was in competition using it etc., etc.)

 

[Blind Tree Frog]

So three posts that state that the short, straight pull of a 1911 clone is better then the short, straight pull of my CZ75 clone. That's nice and all, but I didn't ask about popularity, I asked why it should be considered the definitive combat pistol. Handy's post would seem to be the closest to answering that question, though if that was the reasoning for why it is the definitive combat pistol, I;m curious why the ergonomics haven't been copied

 

[Boats]

Aren't they copied to a large degree?

The CZ-75 SA uses a largely similar grip angle, a thumb mounted safety, a thumb side (for righties) mag release and a thumb operatable slide release. Hard to believe, but those were all present on the 1911 in that exact configuration in that year. No grip safety on a CZ, but that is a design quirk of the 1911A1.

Not to be obstinate, but a lot of ergonomics that are taken for granted today were first developed on the 1911 as a package.

 

[Handy]

BTF,

They have, and they have not. There are certainly more than a handful of older guns built on the general 1911 pattern, like the old Stars, Radom, etc.

However, that stopped in the 1950s when the effectiveness and simplicity of the Walther DA system caught on. Since that time, most gun makers have been looking for ways to appeal to military and LE contracts with what amounts to new and better Walther P-38s. The HK P7 and Glock were essentially the first new steps beyond the P-38 in terms of trigger systems.

In the background, Cooper was inventing a methodology to make the 1911 a more flexible tool. It is only VERY recently that people who write procurement contracts have considered going back to such a system. The manufacturer's have seen this, but don't wish to compete directly with this move, instead offering other fixes, like the USP Variant 1 safety, to allow 1911 like use of their offspring. But no one has really yet risked taking the basic design head on.


I recently wrote a thread about building a 1911 competitor on the Semi board. It IS a good idea who's time has come, but there is always the worry that the 1911 fans, a largely backwards bunch aren't going to embrace a new gun, even if it works better. I'm going to give it a try, but hopefully someone with a bigger budget has a similar plan.