The 1911--this is ridiculous!

[warhammer357]

Seek and ye shall find, brother.....

Here it is. Sit up and take notes.

Plenty of stopping power, eight shots fast and a near instantanious reload. It cocks itself after it fires giving you a short trigger pull to boot in the case you are shooting for your life....
That short trigger length and fast reset doesn't have a darn thing to do with the 1911 being the high standard, the benchmark, the one to be compared to.
In fact, its a liability on an other wise awesome combat sidearm.

Yeah, the double action nines have a trigger advantage on the first shot, but given an aggressive attacker, you might need all 15 rounds in your pre-Clinton clips to stop somebody.

In theory, the Smith 645 should have been the nea plus ultra, but problems like pain in the hiney fieldstripping and a horrendous trigger pull (not to mention poor accuracy and balance (that heavy as a brick factor) kept it from being the next step beyond 1911.


I think the records speak for themselves. The 1911 is the ultimate combat handgun.
Is it the ultimate self defense sidearm?
No. That single action trigger pull is something you have to put up with, not a great deal. Its not for the novice, either.
The ultimate self defense peice is a toss up between a .357 K frame or a snub nose .44 special.
A great combat peice is something you pack when you know you are going into harms way. Like a full size 1911, or a good service auto pistol.....

A good self defense peice is something you pack in case you get attacked going about your day to day life. Short barrel, handy to pack and just pull it out and pull the trigger.

>>>Whether you want to admit it or not, the fact of the matter is that the 1911 is THE benchmark for all combat sidearms, period.
and I'm still waiting to hear why.<<<

 

[Boats]

'Tis exceedingly strange to hear of a short trigger SAO as being a liability and a DA first pull being an advantage. There must be some theory of combat pistolcraft that finds a differing trigger pull to be a good thing, but I haven't heard of it.

 

[Handy]

Warhammer, you just described a Sig 220 and a Ruger P series.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I do believe that this is the very first time that I have ever heard, as primary justification for the 1911's continuing popularity, the trigger.

"A great combat peice is something you pack when you know you are going into harms way."

And for me, that's a Smith & Wesson Model 19.

My 1911?

That's the gun I shoot bowling pins with.


"but given an aggressive attacker, you might need all 15 rounds in your pre-Clinton clips to stop somebody."

There have been more than just a few recorded instances where a .45 has failed to stop a determined attacker, as well.

The .45 ACP isn't a thunderbolt from God, smiting the wicked and rendering justice.

 

[Handy]

I do believe that this is the very first time that I have ever heard, as primary justification for the 1911's continuing popularity, the trigger.

Then you haven't read much I've written in the past year.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"Then you haven't read..."

You'd be correct in that.

But that doesn't change the fact that this is the first time I've ever heard that, in nearly 30 years of being a hard core shooter.

Mac Scott of McDougal & Scott never mentioned the trigger as the reason for the 1911's popularity.

None of the gunsmiths at any of the shops I've worked have mentioned the trigger as the reason for its popularity.

And, up until you, none of the hard-core 1911 shooters I know (well over 100) have ever mentioned the trigger as the root of all popularity.

 

[IanS]

Well, I don't read or even browse through gun rags anymore so I guess its not in my face so much.

Although when I'm at the range sometimes 1911 shooters will kind of give me that "look" when I tell them I prefer my SIGs to 1911's. Even when I slowly try to explain to them that I've owned a few Colt 1911's and generally liked them; they still shake their heads because I prefer SIGs. "But don't you understand 1911's are popular for a reason"

I'm an anomaly they'll just have to accept in their universe.

 

[Handy]

So what do you attribute it too, then, Mike?

The 1911 has about the same bore height, grip diameter and control placement as a Sig 220. If not the trigger, what else draws such a sharp line between the two?

BTW, I really consider the trigger and the cocked and locked safety as part and parcel. The trigger is good because it is simple SAO. That means only a manual safety would make the gun a useful.

 

[JamesD]

My uneducated guess regarding the 1911 popularity is that it's something of the All American Gun. It was used by the US Armed Forces for many decades, it's big, and it looks... well... like a gun "should" look. Not dissing on any other style of gun, before anyone gets mad. Just saying that it looks like straightforward, shoot-s***-up hand-cannon. It has proven to be a highly reliable weapon, but that, I think, is a secondary factor.

I think that it's the specific history of the pistol and the loudish BANG... even though many people probably don't think of that history, and other guns have just as much, and more, bang. The fact that it IS a great gun, or a gun with great features, keeps them there. "It was a great military gun, and I want one.... wow... now, that IS a nice gun!"

Seems I've heard those words before, somewhere.... but I've got mine now, and it's time to move on to other things. Next on my list: SA cowboy-style revolver, .45 Colt. Maybe two. Hmm... I seem to have a thing for .45's....

And, yeah, I'll probably wind up comparing the revolver to the 1911, ridiculous as it may seem. But, I might as well, since that's what I'm familiar with!

 

[warhammer357]

IF memory serves me correctly, it was Massad Ayoob who first started touting the short trigger and reset of the 1911 as an asset.
Even Charles Askins pointed out what a liability they could be if you were on unsteady footing, or even worse, horseback.

To the typical shooter then (or today) the fact that the gun cocked itself for a single action trigger pull was an advantage in a hairy situation as opposed to say pulling through a long pre war Colt revolver action.

The short reset of the SA trigger doesn't mean much to anybody who is not a world class IPSC shooter to be honest, especially in a self defense situation where only hits count, not speed shooting.
The Sig, Ruger and SW DA .45 autos should have been Gen 2 of the 1911.
Instead, the Sig is just not as long lived, the Ruger is chunky and not as concealable and the Smith was heavier and thicker, albiet it had the durability of a 1911.

Cocked and locked is a great advantage on a firing range. Its not so hot for straight up self defense (In my opinion). If startled and you grasp the gun incorrectly its easy to see missing a thumb safety. Just because you never had that happen while training doesnt mean it wont. A buddy of mine told me he nearly crapped his pants during a police shooting when his thumb safety would not disengage on his Delta Elite 10mm....
Turns out he was pushing down on the SLIDE RELEASE not the thumb safety....

 

[Blind Tree Frog]

So what do you attribute it too, then, Mike?

My uneducated guess regarding the 1911 popularity is that it's something of the All American Gun.

In all honesty, that answer would make more sense to me then trigger pull with respect for a combat pistol. Competition pistols falling under a completely different catagory.

 

[Handy]

So you would attribute the popularity solely to hype, rather than a rational decision based on performance, BTF?


Warhammer, you're still listing attributes that aren't particular to any one gun.

 

[warhammer357]

Not so, friend.


What auto pistol OTHER than the 1911 had those attributes up to say the late seventies or early eighties?
Eight shots fast, hard hitting .45 acp caliber and a fast reload thanks to the arrangement of the thumb controlled magazine button? Plus it was flat, and compact, easily concealed and rugged as all get out, lasting for many tens of thousands of rounds in training.


Surely not the Luger, Mr. Hand.

Today, we have 10mms or 40s with many of those features, but other than the Browning designed ones, how many are truly ergonomic in that they are slim and you can get a good grip on them regardless of hand size?

The fact is that the 1911 was there the firstest with the mostest. The first DA .45s other than the 1911 did not set the shooting world on fire (Browning /Sig P220 with mag heel release, an HK that is no longer being made and other aborted attempts).
The fact that it was there for decades and other makers copied its caliber or its mag release should explain why it is the nea plus ultra of combat handguns.
Could something better come along? Of course! Maybe a real double action first shot high power in .45 ACP. You might argue that the .45 P-35 is an improvement, or even the defunct Bren Ten or the .45 caliber CZs.



>>Warhammer, you're still listing attributes that aren't particular to any one gun.
<<<

 

[Blind Tree Frog]

So you would attribute the popularity solely to hype, rather than a rational decision based on performance, BTF?

Honestly? Hmm... no, actually I'd blame a lot of it on two wars.

Gun gets accepted in 1911 officially. WW1 starts 3 years later. Production needs to be ramped up so the design is sent around to different shops to help support demand. The war ends and we now have a large number of 1911's out there and a large number of people leaving the war who know how to use them very well. They teach others how to shoot and they show them 1911's when they do it.

I'm guessing that Browning has a good number of patents on his design. History should of shown him to do that. So no one can make anything 1911 like for a good 17 years or so. It's either a 1911 or nothing.

20 years later and WW2 starts. Repeat above paragraph. If you don't think this can happen, start asking your grandparents how long it was before they would allow a non-american made car in their drive way.

Also, nationalism during this century is rather high. A large number of people will buy it becuase the .45 is "the american round" and it's a true american gun.

Is it a good gun? Sure. Is it the best gun out there (out of the box)? Probably not unless you are dropping lots of coin on it. Is it the best combat gun out there? I'm really not hearing a reason why yet. It's a straight pull trigger sure, but even a trigger that rotates is effectively straight if it doesn't travel very far, like it would in single action mode. The location of the controls are great... ok. My Witness has the same controls in pretty much the same exact spot. Safety is a bit farther forward i believe. If the controls are what does it, why wouldn't my Witness also be the ultimate combat gun (other then there can only be one ultimate)?

The patents should be expired by now. They should of expired a long time ago. I doubt they managed to pull off any copyrighting tricks like Harely does with their bikes. So if it is such a great design, handed down by God himself even, why is it not being copied more? Why are the specs that the military or FBI looking for in a gun reading like a 1911 word for word? Why didn't browning stop after designing the 1911?

The gun became popular. Lots of people started using it and lots of gunsmiths started supporting it. That's a recipe for it to be continue to be popular. It gets a high end mistique about it that the creme de la creme use it. It continues to grow in popularity. It's got the american made mystique. It's more or less just like Harely Davidson. Harley's are good bikes. They are THE american motorcycle. They define motorcycles for many people. They are not the best ones out there by far.

 

[Handy]

Warhammer,

Dude, you're the one that called it a benchmark (which has nothing to do with history), and then you say that a Sig can't be a benchmark because it is only 30 years old?

"bench·mark (bnchmärk) NOUN: A standard by which something can be measured or judged."

You just seem to be confused. Before, you listed physical attributes that weren't at all specific to the 1911. When pressed, you changed your tune to an inaccurate history lesson.

It would appear that you have no idea why the gun is a "benchmark". You even list features, like the mag release, that were found on earlier guns as evidence.


The 1911 certainly is a reference point or standard for handgunning, but clearly you don't even know why, or are even able to answer a direct question.

 

[Handy]

BTF,

The patents did run out, that's why you can buy a Kimber. And during the first half of the century you have the production of Star Bs, Ballester Mollinas, Radoms, Tokarevs and few other close copies.

So what are you getting at? I already gave you a rundown on the last centurys handgun trends and what the current state of imitation is. You're not going to get a straight answer from Warhammer about... anything.

So what is it you want?

 

[Blind Tree Frog]

The patents did run out

Yes I know. That's why I said that they did in my post.

So what are you getting at?

You asked if I felt that it's current status by some on this board as "ultimate combat handgun" was purely fueled by hype. My answer was a long winded way of saying yes and explaining why that hype came to be.

 

[Boats]

What he wants is to purport that there is something better out there. He just can't/won't come out and say what he thinks is a better overall package.

You can see it in how he compares the 1911 to Harleys. That analogy breaks down because while one can buy Italian, Japanese, or even British bikes that will run rings around a H-D on the road and the track, there is nothing out there that totally outclasses the 1911 in a similar manner. Some pistols have more elegant soulutions to lock-up or other technical aspects of the handgun, but none of them are so essential that they can displace the 1911.

What seems to be the fly in the ointment for several folks in this thread is that they cannot accept that the 1911 is popular for any good reason, yet there it is, the seeming king of the hill, that they can neither knock off nor ignore.

I know the feeling. I love Macintosh computers. Almost all one ever hears about, sees accessories first developed for, and an aftermarket well developed for, is that inferior Windows system. In the mainstream computer press, one can never read about a Mac without some level of comment on how it compares in features or price to the PeeCee.

I guess the difference is that rather than railing about how archaic Windows is, how non-user friendly it is, how indifferently made it is, how unreliable it is, and how both OSX and Linux can do most things better, I just enjoy what I have rather than invest energy in such a fruitless battle to convince everyone why I am right and they are wrong.

 

[Handy]

BTF,

I am far from a dedicated 1911 man, but I recognize the strengths of a design that is far from perfect. Those strengths are no less legitimate even if no one has used them as a direct jumping off point for a better version of the same - YET. The simplest argument is that the 1911 is so common that there is little reason to compete.

However, are you aware of the S&W 945 and Pardini GT45?

 

[FirstFreedom]

Surely not the Luger, Mr. Hand

Lol, Mr. Hand was Jeff Spicoli's nemesis, wasn't it?

I don't put much stock in the disctinction between a "combat" handgun and a "self-defense" handgun. Both are for self-defense and need similar qualities. Really, no such thing as a "combat" handgun or "fighting" handgun, IMO. If you know you're going into harm's way, you'll have a longgun if you're smart. That said, for a self-defense handgun ("self-defense handgun" being an all encompassing category to include backup sidearms for those *carrying longguns* knowingly going into harm's way), for the reason Handy and others alluded to (experienced shooters failing to disengage the manual under severe stress) is why I'm currently in the process of transitioning from 1911s to DA/SAs (CZs, Sigs, etc.) for self-defense carry. Like Mr. Irwin said, the 1911 is (now) for shooting bowling pins.

Boats, the Mac/Linux analogy is apt, I believe. Good point.