Blind Tree Frog
New member
No, and for the third time since you apparently didn't understand it when I asked the first time, I wanted to know why it should be considered the best.
No and i don't see the 945 on Smith's website. I do see a 952 though.
The 1911--this is ridiculous!
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Mike Irwin
Staff
What do I attribute it to?
Well, there's a huge passel of myth/mysticism in there, as we've seen in this thread. The .45 has the aura of being a "MAN'S GUN!", as in only true hemen can shoot it well because it's so ungodly powerful. As the old saying goes, if you hit someone in the pinky with one of those big slugs, it will take his entire arm off. I'd feel safe in wagering that more unmitigated BS has been ejected about the 1911 and its cartridge than any other gun/cartridge combination.
There's also the theory that if John Browning created it, it must be the greatest
Then there undoubtedly the "hey, if the US gov't used it for 60 odd years, then I guess I should to." The same sort of aura exists around the .30-06 cartridge, as well. Not to mention other weapons used by the US military.
That in turn undoubtedly helped create the BOPOS market for these guns.
There's undoubtedly the flexibility of the gun to modifications, the fact that it can be tuned to high degrees of accuract, etc.
If I had to put a finger on the one thing, though, that made the 1911, I'd have to say it's the myth/aura that grew up around it.
What most people don't recognize is that this is really a post WW II phenom. The 1911 hasn't always been "universally" viewed as the greatest thing since, well, itself. The gun press bears a lot of responsibility for driving this, as does the availability of cheap 1911s as military surplus after WW II.
But, as I said before, this is the first time I've ever heard the trigger being touted as the primary justification for the 1911's popularity.
Well, there's a huge passel of myth/mysticism in there, as we've seen in this thread. The .45 has the aura of being a "MAN'S GUN!", as in only true hemen can shoot it well because it's so ungodly powerful. As the old saying goes, if you hit someone in the pinky with one of those big slugs, it will take his entire arm off. I'd feel safe in wagering that more unmitigated BS has been ejected about the 1911 and its cartridge than any other gun/cartridge combination.
There's also the theory that if John Browning created it, it must be the greatest
Then there undoubtedly the "hey, if the US gov't used it for 60 odd years, then I guess I should to." The same sort of aura exists around the .30-06 cartridge, as well. Not to mention other weapons used by the US military.
That in turn undoubtedly helped create the BOPOS market for these guns.
There's undoubtedly the flexibility of the gun to modifications, the fact that it can be tuned to high degrees of accuract, etc.
If I had to put a finger on the one thing, though, that made the 1911, I'd have to say it's the myth/aura that grew up around it.
What most people don't recognize is that this is really a post WW II phenom. The 1911 hasn't always been "universally" viewed as the greatest thing since, well, itself. The gun press bears a lot of responsibility for driving this, as does the availability of cheap 1911s as military surplus after WW II.
But, as I said before, this is the first time I've ever heard the trigger being touted as the primary justification for the 1911's popularity.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"So you would attribute the popularity solely to hype, rather than a rational decision based on performance, BTF?"
He never attributed it solely to hype.
But I have to say that he's correct in saying that hype has a LOT to do with it.
But, when you get right down to it, hype has a lot to do with the popularity of just about EVERYTHING.
It's not necessarily a good thing, it's not necessarily a bad thing, it just is, and it can create versions of reality all its own.
He never attributed it solely to hype.
But I have to say that he's correct in saying that hype has a LOT to do with it.
But, when you get right down to it, hype has a lot to do with the popularity of just about EVERYTHING.
It's not necessarily a good thing, it's not necessarily a bad thing, it just is, and it can create versions of reality all its own.
The 945 is out of current production - but is coming back.
Here's one:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976402367.htm
It copies all the 1911's external features, but uses proven 3rd gen S&W internals for reliability. The down side (aside from cost) is that it doesn't perform any differently than a correctly tuned 1911, since no attempt was made to lower the bore or relocate any of the harder to reach controls (though the slide release is better).
Here's one:
http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976402367.htm
It copies all the 1911's external features, but uses proven 3rd gen S&W internals for reliability. The down side (aside from cost) is that it doesn't perform any differently than a correctly tuned 1911, since no attempt was made to lower the bore or relocate any of the harder to reach controls (though the slide release is better).
too many choices!?
New member
History, Magic bullets, and Style of course.......
Make the 1911 the Corvette of hand cannons. It (like the corvette) is American made, is fast and powerful, and can be customized for buttload of money to the owner's hearts content. I never shot a 1911 but for me, as an outside observer (outside the 1911 cult
) ,the gun has a certain sexyness associated with its stylings. My next handgun will probably be a 1911 styled double/single action. It just looks like a no fluff firearm(just a little hefty). Add in all the custom options available and the great reputation it has and one Superb Firearm is all it could be. If you worry about missing the safety under stress, then get a GLock and a Fobus holster carry one in the chamber and call it good!!!!!!!
PS If you miss all 8 shots with your 1911(whatever the reason)
You still have a 6lbs hammer .
Make the 1911 the Corvette of hand cannons. It (like the corvette) is American made, is fast and powerful, and can be customized for buttload of money to the owner's hearts content. I never shot a 1911 but for me, as an outside observer (outside the 1911 cult
) ,the gun has a certain sexyness associated with its stylings. My next handgun will probably be a 1911 styled double/single action. It just looks like a no fluff firearm(just a little hefty). Add in all the custom options available and the great reputation it has and one Superb Firearm is all it could be. If you worry about missing the safety under stress, then get a GLock and a Fobus holster carry one in the chamber and call it good!!!!!!!PS If you miss all 8 shots with your 1911(whatever the reason)
You still have a 6lbs hammer
.warhammer357
Moderator
You guessed wrong Pardner.
the patent ran out over a decade ago, which is why AMT, Smith, Kimber, Etc. have been making them for years.
A good witness or CZ -z5 in .40 or .45 caliber have a lot going for them, and one could argue that they are the next step up. Of course they are not as durable according to IPCS types who find the slide stops break in heavy usage.
You could also argue the p-35 in .40 caliber is the next step up.
>>guessing that Browning has a good number of patents on his design. History should of shown him to do that. So no one can make anything 1911 like for a good 17 years or so. It's either a 1911 or nothing.
<<<
the patent ran out over a decade ago, which is why AMT, Smith, Kimber, Etc. have been making them for years.
A good witness or CZ -z5 in .40 or .45 caliber have a lot going for them, and one could argue that they are the next step up. Of course they are not as durable according to IPCS types who find the slide stops break in heavy usage.
You could also argue the p-35 in .40 caliber is the next step up.
>>guessing that Browning has a good number of patents on his design. History should of shown him to do that. So no one can make anything 1911 like for a good 17 years or so. It's either a 1911 or nothing.
<<<
warhammer357
Moderator
Ramp down on the medication Mr. Hand. Just because you are incapable of understanding simple replies doesn't mean that a straight answer is not a straight answer. The tune is a good one, even if you don't want to hear it....
Like I said, the 1911 offers 8 shots fast, an instantaneious reload, cocks itself and is flatter and more compact (hence easier to carry) than the Glunk or the even Chunkier HK and Ruger .45 acps, and is better balanced than the Smith DA .45s. Its also more rugged than the majority of guns on the market as well as easier to customize to the end users specific wants, and it has been chopped, channeled and modified in every way imaginable by custom smiths to wring every type of imaginable performance out of it.
Thats why its the benchmark, doooooooooooood!!!!
Add to that the fact that it has been tried and proven in wars and police actions from here to Singapore.
Thos are all valid and logical reasons for my statement. Yeah, the Ruger and HK .45s are nice, but they are fat through the slide. The CZ clones are nice in .45, but arent they a tad heavy?
The 1911 has it all except a DA first shot and decocking lever, and you can get the one from Para if you want.....
The Sig .45 DA is accurate and light, but it is not as durable as a 1911.
The Ruger and HKs are accurate but wide slides.
The 1911 offers the mostest and it offered it the firstest as my five year old nephew would say.
>>Dude, you're the one that called it a benchmark (which has nothing to do with history), and then you say that a Sig can't be a benchmark because it is only 30 years old?
"bench·mark (bnchmärk) NOUN: A standard by which something can be measured or judged."
You just seem to be confused. Before, you listed physical attributes that weren't at all specific to the 1911. When pressed, you changed your tune to an inaccurate history lesson.
It would appear that you have no idea why the gun is a "benchmark". You even list features, like the mag release, that were found on earlier guns as evidence.
The 1911 certainly is a reference point or standard for handgunning, but clearly you don't even know why, or are even able to answer a direct question.
<<<
Like I said, the 1911 offers 8 shots fast, an instantaneious reload, cocks itself and is flatter and more compact (hence easier to carry) than the Glunk or the even Chunkier HK and Ruger .45 acps, and is better balanced than the Smith DA .45s. Its also more rugged than the majority of guns on the market as well as easier to customize to the end users specific wants, and it has been chopped, channeled and modified in every way imaginable by custom smiths to wring every type of imaginable performance out of it.
Thats why its the benchmark, doooooooooooood!!!!
Add to that the fact that it has been tried and proven in wars and police actions from here to Singapore.
Thos are all valid and logical reasons for my statement. Yeah, the Ruger and HK .45s are nice, but they are fat through the slide. The CZ clones are nice in .45, but arent they a tad heavy?
The 1911 has it all except a DA first shot and decocking lever, and you can get the one from Para if you want.....
The Sig .45 DA is accurate and light, but it is not as durable as a 1911.
The Ruger and HKs are accurate but wide slides.
The 1911 offers the mostest and it offered it the firstest as my five year old nephew would say.
>>Dude, you're the one that called it a benchmark (which has nothing to do with history), and then you say that a Sig can't be a benchmark because it is only 30 years old?
"bench·mark (bnchmärk) NOUN: A standard by which something can be measured or judged."
You just seem to be confused. Before, you listed physical attributes that weren't at all specific to the 1911. When pressed, you changed your tune to an inaccurate history lesson.
It would appear that you have no idea why the gun is a "benchmark". You even list features, like the mag release, that were found on earlier guns as evidence.
The 1911 certainly is a reference point or standard for handgunning, but clearly you don't even know why, or are even able to answer a direct question.
<<<
Blind Tree Frog
New member
picking nits here, but since reading is fundamental:
When did I say that the patents had not run out? I stated that most likely he had patents (Colt should of taught him that) and that they should of run out by now.
Actually, you didn't say. This is your first post where you've even addressed most of the competition. Who's on medication?
Of course, you haven't really covered why a 220ST (which lacks any potential durability problems of the 220) isn't "the benchmark", since it is neither chunky, wide, heavier or less durable. Plus:
So the Sig 220ST, by your statements, must be the benchmark, since it has the DA trigger and decocking lever the 1911 lacks.
too many choices!?
New member
Sorry I'm not a "Bike Guy" and if I was.........
it would be a Honda or Suzuki ( Now a quote from the Fantastic Four, "Flame on!!".
What happend when you stepped on the gas pedal of that "bath tub with an engine"? If it went zoooom!, then my analogy is correct.
PS That sig220 sounds sweet as honey Have to give it a look as I was already leaning to the sig side...
it would be a Honda or Suzuki
( Now a quote from the Fantastic Four, "Flame on!!". What happend when you stepped on the gas pedal of that "bath tub with an engine"? If it went zoooom!, then my analogy is correct.
PS That sig220 sounds sweet as honey
Have to give it a look as I was already leaning to the sig side...
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warhammer357
Moderator
Mr. Hand, in the event you ever get mugged or visited by federal ninjas, I sincerely hope your defensive shooting skills are better than your reading comprehension ability, or you might want to hire Michael Moore's bodyguard who is probably looking for work today, LOL....
Like I said, if you would bother to go look -eight hard hitting shots fast, near instantaneous reload, rugged and durable. AND reliable.
Up till say the mid 1970s, nothing else on the market offered that. Most other autos were nines and many of them had heel clip mag releases.
Even then, the new guns that came along Sig, Ruger, Smith etc. in .45 caliber were generally wider through the slide, chunkier, and less concealable, not to mention that none of them had the rep for durability as ol slabsides.
Some were lighter, though and had DA triggers. But none could compare to the Government model in terms of having the most useful features, such as ergonomics, flatness, durability etc....
Thats why its the benchmark.
Track record dating back to WWI of satisfied users to boot.
Are you going to honestly try and tell everybody that the Sig is not wider through the slide than the 1911, or for that matter the bore doesn't sit considerable higher in the hand? Have you handled one that has had 60,000 rounds through it yet without a parts breakage?
Its reality, Mr. Hand. Grasp it.
>>Actually, you didn't say. This is your first post where you've even addressed most of the competition. Who's on medication?
Of course, you haven't really covered why a 220ST (which lacks any potential durability problems of the 220) isn't "the benchmark", since it is neither chunky, wide, heavier or less durable. Plus:
Quote:
The 1911 has it all except a DA first shot and decocking lever
So the Sig 220ST, by your statements, must be the benchmark, since it has the DA trigger and decocking lever the 1911 lacks.
<<<
Like I said, if you would bother to go look -eight hard hitting shots fast, near instantaneous reload, rugged and durable. AND reliable.
Up till say the mid 1970s, nothing else on the market offered that. Most other autos were nines and many of them had heel clip mag releases.
Even then, the new guns that came along Sig, Ruger, Smith etc. in .45 caliber were generally wider through the slide, chunkier, and less concealable, not to mention that none of them had the rep for durability as ol slabsides.
Some were lighter, though and had DA triggers. But none could compare to the Government model in terms of having the most useful features, such as ergonomics, flatness, durability etc....
Thats why its the benchmark.
Track record dating back to WWI of satisfied users to boot.
Are you going to honestly try and tell everybody that the Sig is not wider through the slide than the 1911, or for that matter the bore doesn't sit considerable higher in the hand? Have you handled one that has had 60,000 rounds through it yet without a parts breakage?
Its reality, Mr. Hand. Grasp it.
>>Actually, you didn't say. This is your first post where you've even addressed most of the competition. Who's on medication?
Of course, you haven't really covered why a 220ST (which lacks any potential durability problems of the 220) isn't "the benchmark", since it is neither chunky, wide, heavier or less durable. Plus:
Quote:
The 1911 has it all except a DA first shot and decocking lever
So the Sig 220ST, by your statements, must be the benchmark, since it has the DA trigger and decocking lever the 1911 lacks.
<<<
Reading comprehension.
The first time you mentioned the Sig you said it was too new.
The second time you mentioned the Sig you said it wasn't durable.
This time you're saying it is wider in the slide and has a higher bore.
Everytime you post on this topic you add something new and act like that's what you were saying all along, which you weren't.
One thing I have physically measured is bore height - there really isn't a difference between a 220 and a standard 1911A1 from bore to grip safety, but we can pretend if you want.
I didn't say, neither did you:
The first time you mentioned the Sig you said it was too new.
The second time you mentioned the Sig you said it wasn't durable.
This time you're saying it is wider in the slide and has a higher bore.
Everytime you post on this topic you add something new and act like that's what you were saying all along, which you weren't.
One thing I have physically measured is bore height - there really isn't a difference between a 220 and a standard 1911A1 from bore to grip safety, but we can pretend if you want.
ojibweindian
New member
I agree with Mike's post a few pages back.
Make mine a S&W 586.
Make mine a S&W 586.
Blind Tree Frog
New member
To modify the topic slightly,
Is there any reason why a modern,"combat" handgun shouldn't be DA/SA with a manual saftey and a decocker? Let people who really want to carry it in SA mode, but for whatever reason people might want, give it an DA trigger as well? Say for the first shot if they don't want to carry it c&l or incase a misfire and they want to try again rather then eject the cartridge?
Is there any reason why a modern,"combat" handgun shouldn't be DA/SA with a manual saftey and a decocker? Let people who really want to carry it in SA mode, but for whatever reason people might want, give it an DA trigger as well? Say for the first shot if they don't want to carry it c&l or incase a misfire and they want to try again rather then eject the cartridge?
You're right - it is ridiculous!
I like my Colt 45 Autos, have since I got my first in oh 1969. The only guns I have the same affinity for are the S&W revos, both they and the Colt 45 Auto are timeless classics, good at what they do and look the part as well.
The 45 Auto was really a dog until about 1989 or so, you could pick them up for a song, then people realized that the auto pistol was here to stay (once all the police depts had switched over) but the wondernines didn't have quite enough oomph to definitively stop agression. Suddenly John Q. Public rediscovered the 45 Auto. I prefer the Colt but others have their druthers also.
I like my Colt 45 Autos, have since I got my first in oh 1969. The only guns I have the same affinity for are the S&W revos, both they and the Colt 45 Auto are timeless classics, good at what they do and look the part as well.
The 45 Auto was really a dog until about 1989 or so, you could pick them up for a song, then people realized that the auto pistol was here to stay (once all the police depts had switched over) but the wondernines didn't have quite enough oomph to definitively stop agression. Suddenly John Q. Public rediscovered the 45 Auto. I prefer the Colt but others have their druthers also.
BTF,
The main problem with DA/SA triggers is that the SA trigger suffers because of the need for it to also work in DA. It's a compromise. Usually, this creates less than optimal trigger reach and maybe sloppy trigger bar connection. CZ wouldn't offer SA only versions if this wasn't a factor.
But it certainly is possible to make a better SA on a DA/SA trigger. My P9S trigger is great - but the DA pull is a bit long. Also, the Llama Omega pistols had two complete trigger mechanisms for each mode.
But this is why HK engineers created that P7, which is DA in every important way and SA in every important way.
The main problem with DA/SA triggers is that the SA trigger suffers because of the need for it to also work in DA. It's a compromise. Usually, this creates less than optimal trigger reach and maybe sloppy trigger bar connection. CZ wouldn't offer SA only versions if this wasn't a factor.
But it certainly is possible to make a better SA on a DA/SA trigger. My P9S trigger is great - but the DA pull is a bit long. Also, the Llama Omega pistols had two complete trigger mechanisms for each mode.
But this is why HK engineers created that P7, which is DA in every important way and SA in every important way.
Browning did an awful lot of development work using .38 ACP - I don't know if saying the gun and round "were designed for each other" is really correct.
Certainly the first generation of 10mms, like the G20 and Bren fall into that category. The FN FiveSeven is a great example since that gun couldn't even be made to function in standard calibers. Specialty calibers like .45 Magnum, .50 AE and .50 GI, Gyrojet, Trounds, etc also make the list. But really the caliber boom for handguns came and went in the period before WWII where the multitude of 9mms, .30s and such came into being with new guns to match. Today we're left with what served with the most successful armies of WWI and II.
Certainly the first generation of 10mms, like the G20 and Bren fall into that category. The FN FiveSeven is a great example since that gun couldn't even be made to function in standard calibers. Specialty calibers like .45 Magnum, .50 AE and .50 GI, Gyrojet, Trounds, etc also make the list. But really the caliber boom for handguns came and went in the period before WWII where the multitude of 9mms, .30s and such came into being with new guns to match. Today we're left with what served with the most successful armies of WWI and II.
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