neck size or full length size ?

[hounddawg]

you guys really make this out to be more difficult than it needs to be. I was doing a batch of .260 Rems today and decided to set the die from scratch just to see how long it took.

1. loosen the lock ring and raise it up a bit
2. bring ram to the top of the stroke
3. screw die in till base hits shell holder
4. lower ram, screw die in another 1/8 turn.
5. measure a case with a comparator or gage of choice, size the case and
check shoulder bump
6. If you have .002 - .003 shoulder bump then it is good, if not lower the die
another 1/8th turn. When happy with the bump, tighten the lock ring

Took me all of two minutes and forty five seconds to get a shoulder bump of .003

 

[Bart B.]

hounddawg, it's just not fair to mention simple, easy to do solutions.

In spite of one eighth turn is worth about .009 inch die change.

 

[F. Guffey]

hounddawg, it's just not fair to mention simple, easy to do solutions.

In spite of one eighth turn is worth about .009 inch die change.

If the die has 14 threads per inch one turn is equal to .071+" 1/8 turn is close to .008". 1/4 turn is equal to about .0177". The Additional 1/4 turn after die contact with the shell holder was supposed to increase the presses ability to overcome the cases ability to resist sizing.

Now if hew is able to keep up and starts with the die adjusted to the shell holder there is no way he can increase the ability of the die to size the case. The die is designed to sized the case to minimum length/full length size. I understand that is a difficult one for the to keep up with.

When I choose to sized a case and avoid reducing the length of the case from the shoulder to the case head I back the die off; I know it must be a mind boggling thing but when I want to size a case to go-gage length I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage .005".

I an the only reloaders with long chambers from the shoulder/datum to the bolt face. One of my rifles has a chamber that is .002" longer than a field reject length gage. Now before all you reloaders jump out into the fast lane and start adjusting the die up and or down .002" longer than a field reject length gage that is .016" worth of feeler gage with a 30/06 chamber. .

For those that can keep up if I was using minimum length/full length sized cases I would have .016" clearance. If I was using cases sized to go-gage length I would have .011" clearance.

When I want to size a case to go-gage length I adjust the die off the shell holder with a feeler gage .005".

Time and time again I have asked why does a reloaders adjust the die in fractional turns of the die and of fractional turns on the die based on 380 degree?

I have always skipped the fractional turns and wild guesstimates, I go straight for it; I use the feeler gage.

F. Guffey

 

[hounddawg]

In spite of one eighth turn is worth about .009 inch die change.

7/8th 14 TPI so it would be 1/8 turn would be 7.14285714 so maybe do 1/16. I sure as heck don't need a set of $50 or $75 shell holders to get er done and it ain't rocket surgery

To me the simplest solution is the best solution

 

[pwc]

Hounddawg - I don't understand....I've been following this thread for a long time but I don't understand something.

If wyou are starting with an un known case not matched to your rifle, and if the ram with the shell holder is raised to the top of its travel and the die is screwed down to contact the shell holder, that is the deepest the case will go into the die.

To lower the die an eighth of a turn will only cause the shell holder to contact .009" before the rams max height. The only way to get the case any deeper onto the die is to eliminate the gap between the bottom of the shell holder and the ram. As pointed out in earlier posts that can be measured with a feeler gauge. If a shim is used, THEN, the case can be pushed only that much deeper into the die to set back the shoulder. If the die fully supports the case in length and circumference, the neck should 'grow' longer by some amount.

I don't understand how lowering the die by itself will push the case further into the die past it's max adjustment, other than maybe press 'spring back'. Am I missing something?

 

[BBarn]

Yes, most presses have a bit of slop or stretch/flex. It's easily observed by noting the difference in clearance between shellholder and die with no case in the press versus a case in the press.

 

[hounddawg]

I don't understand how lowering the die by itself will push the case further into the die past it's max adjustment, other than maybe press 'spring back'. Am I missing something?
pwc is offline

do it however you want. Every sizing die I have ever bought had instructions with it. I do it the way they say to do it, it works. I suggest you dig out the instructions that came with your die and do it the way they tell you to do it.

For me I quote Rule 17: if it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[pwc]

BBarn- Yes, that is the case with my Pacific C press. But I don't think anyone wants to depend on maybe measurable 'spring back' of the press to set the shoulder.

Whether you call it head clearance or headspace, the desired outcome is to get a cartridge that fits or is formed to the chamber of the gun in which it is to be fired, with no movement of the brass except that which is needed to shrink for extraxtion.

 

[BBarn]

There is going to be a bit of trial and error regardless due to variations in brass springback (memory).

 

[pwc]

Hounddawg - As you suggested, I did reread my RCBS instructions; they say after adjusting the die to contact the shell holder, "Be sure all play is removed from the press leverage system. To do this, adjust the die as above, lower the shell holder and set the die 1/8 to 1/4" turn further down so the press will cam over center."

So, that adjustment is to remove the play in the press, not to move the case further into the die to set back / bump the shoulder. That can only happen if the "play" between the ram and the shell holder is removed.

Now, all that said, I am not trying to start a pissing contest. I do set my press up as RCBS states, and have used it many years that way. But, the thread question was to F/L or neck size. Along the way we have meandered into how to get the least headspace or head clearance for a given firearm.

I don't think the RCBS instructions will give that, but they do make perfectly shootable ammunition. I believe there is information in this thread that will help me get cartridges that are sized to my rifle with little or no headspace or head clearance.

 

[Bart B.]

pwc,

I take your comments to mean you want your resized cases to have a head to shoulder dimension that's the same as, or .001" less than, the dimension from the closed bolt face to the chamber shoulder.

Is that correct?

 

[Don Fischer]

Hounddawg - As you suggested, I did reread my RCBS instructions; they say after adjusting the die to contact the shell holder, "Be sure all play is removed from the press leverage system. To do this, adjust the die as above, lower the shell holder and set the die 1/8 to 1/4" turn further down so the press will cam over center."

So, that adjustment is to remove the play in the press, not to move the case further into the die to set back / bump the shoulder. That can only happen if the "play" between the ram and the shell holder is removed.

Now, all that said, I am not trying to start a pissing contest. I do set my press up as RCBS states, and have used it many years that way. But, the thread question was to F/L or neck size. Along the way we have meandered into how to get the least headspace or head clearance for a given firearm.

I don't think the RCBS instructions will give that, but they do make perfectly shootable ammunition. I believe there is information in this thread that will help me get cartridges that are sized to my rifle with little or no headspace or head clearance.

Yep, that's the way the instructions say to do it. I adjust the die to size the case to the chamber. I don't have the tools to measure it, probably couldn't do it if I had them! Second firing of a new case get's neck size only, so does the third. At that point the bolt will generally not close on the fired case anymore or as you chamber that case you'll feel resistance in the bolt, it's the case shoulder rubbing on the chamber. When I reach that point I screw the die down 1/4 turn at a time and resize the case. Then try it again. I do that until I can no longer feel the shoulder rub in the chamber. Lock down the sizing die and that die is dedicated to that rifle forever more. Works for me as I have only one time in my life had two rifles chamber in the same cartridge at the same time. That time is right now. I have two 243's and both have their own set of dies. Now I tried chamber rounds from both set's in both rifles. One rifle would chamber both and one rifle wouldn't. Difference in the size of the chamber's. I think if you want to believe your getting the best of your reloads, this is the way to go. But setting the die to the direction's I suspect will also give you good ammo. What started me n this was a 7mm mag many years ago, kept separating the head's withing 4 or 5 rounds. Got it explained that rimmed cartridges sometime's have a sloppy chamber just because of the headspacing on the rim. So the solution was to learn partial sizing, aka bump the shoulder! I suspect it also works on rimmed case's. On regular case's, ie 30-06. The partial sizing method is used by some to overcome excessive headspace is what I understand. Never did it myself but makes perfect sense to me. Make the case fit the chamber of the rifle. Or make the case meet SAMMI min spec's!

 

[F. Guffey]

/8th 14 TPI so it would be 1/8 turn would be 7.14285714 so maybe do 1/16. I sure as heck don't need a set of $50 or $75 shell holders to get er done and it ain't rocket surgery

I have one set of Redding Competition shell holders, I paid $5.00 for the set. The set is only for Belted cases, it sets very expensive for a reloader that limits their knowledge. Anything a reloader can do with a Redding competition shell holder set I can do with a feeler gage, the same with Skip, shims.

I do not find it necessary to get vapor lock when adjusting a die, I can adjust a die with a height gage, all of my dial calipers are height gages. The bottom of the die is connected (very solidly) to the bottom of the die; if the bottom of the die is raised the top has no choice but to move 'right along' with it.

I know, there are paper degree wheels, attempts have been made to manufacturer an addon/attachment wheel; again, if the reloaders goes straight to lower and or raising the die there is only one way fast way to get there and that would be the way of the thousandths.

Back to adjusting the die: If after making the adjustments the press, die and shell holder still fails to reduce the length of the case from thee shoulder to the case head the reloaders has no choice but to lower the die. No ideal what you guys choose to call it but I doubt the press has more slack to be removed, at sometime or the other the reloaders has to consider the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome.

I do not have fewer than 15 presses, in an effort to give some of the presses the benefit of doubt I tried different case lubes. For the toughest to size/form cases I use a non case lube. I do not use the libe for all sizing procedures but when I need it to overcome case sizing resistance the lube makes the press look good.

And I have one press I can not find, it looks like a juicer/scissor thing. I purchased it from a restaurant equipment dealer in the wine country of California, I tried to convince him it was a reloading press, he insisted I was wrong was wrong and finally I agreed. I wanted the juicer but there were parts that were missing so he had to lower the price because he could not find the parts and or listing.

The scissor press had the worst review of all presses, I do not believe the manufacturer sold one. The point? My no name lube could do nothing to help the press overcome the cases resistance to sizing.

And then there is cam over forget rocket science, there are thoughts the mind can not conceive. One of those thoughts is 'leaver lock' leaver lock was invented in the mid 30s by Channel Lock the plyer company. the leaver lock does away with the bump at the top of the press. All of my cam over presses bump at the top, it bumps once on the way up and once on the way down.

F. Guffey

 

[cw308]

pwc
I started out neck sizing because I only shoot benchrest , after reading and experimenting I found full sizing much more accurate all around . With neck sizing all your cases do not stretch at the same rate , with full sizing all cases are sized the same length . With adjusting the press with full contact , just remember we're dealing in thousands , by lowering your die slightly lower will remove any slack in die linkage and die and press threads . That may give you that extra .002 . When setting with only contact as your sizing the case the case resistance is removing the slack , when the ram is at the top you may see light between shellholder and die. My cases get shorter when fired from expansion , when I use the standard shellholder with full contact my cases oversize , instead of backing out the die I went with the Redding Competition Shellholders , deck heights are lower then the standard shellholder . So I guess I made my answer to your question much longer then just saying , I find full sizing more accurate than neck for me . Hope I Helped in some way .

Chris

 

[F. Guffey]

I find full sizing more accurate than neck for me . Hope I Helped in some way .

When a reloader introduces himself as being a 'bench rester' I groan and or moan. We have a member that started out recommending reloaders 'do like the bench rester'. He was under the impression bench resters full length sized every time.

I had to say something like the bench rester's rifle is nothing like the 50+ rifles I shoot, I had to suggest there had to be as much as $1,500++ difference in the price of the common ordinary ever day reloader.s rifle.

And then he claimed he got 45 firings our of one case with heavy full loads. I had to ask him if he measured before and after, I asked because when I fore maximum loads the case goes through some serious shock. But to him and the way he explained it the event was nothing more than handling a doll buggy.

And then he changed his claim and backed off of the maximum loads.

I have fired heavy loads, again, I purchased 4 rifles with the understanding the rifles were suspect. Try to understand the receivers had already worn out two barrels. I loaded up some test ammo, I fired the test ammo. Opening the bolt was most difficult, I could not find the primer.

The case: One firing and that was it, the case head expanded .010", the primer pocket was most generous, the case head was crushed and the flash hole increased in diameter to a point my flash hole gage would only south one side at a time.

It was about that time I had to wonder what qualified the receivers as being suspect; the receivers were Mausers, they were a little different than all the rest. The receivers had been modified, they knew something was different, they just did not know what caused them to be different.

I turned one of the rifles in to a 30 Gibbs. I was not happy with the short necks, the neck of the chamber is .217" long, There are those that believe the 300 Win mag has a short neck at somewhere about .270" long.

F. Guffey

 

[pwc]

BartB - yes, that is what I want. My wooden warriors are not capable of extreme accuracy and when you add in 75 year old eyes the variable increases. But I do enjoy reloading, and I want to do the best I can with the tools I have witbout adding $.

I have 06 brass with 15+ reloadings. What I see here is that we are violently agreeing, but explaining our own F/L or neck size differently.

 

[F. Guffey]

agreeing, but explaining our own F/L or neck size differently.

I have neck sizer dies, I also have full length sizing dies I neck size with. And then there is the degree of sizing, it is possible to partially neck size with a neck sizer die and it is possible to partially neck size with a bull length sizing die.

And at one time a reloader could purchase Lee Target model reloading sets. The die was a neck sizer with a neck reamer and neck support.

F. Guffey

 

[F. Guffey]

I take your comments to mean you want your resized cases to have a head to shoulder dimension that's the same as, or .001" less than, the dimension from the closed bolt face to the chamber shoulder.

And then there is the illusive magic .002" clearance, again I ask where did that come from?

F. Guffey

 

[Bart B.]

And then there is the illusive magic .002" clearance, again I ask where did that come from?

Subtracting case headspace dimension from chamber headspace dimension. A dimension that promotes excellent accuracy and long case life. Been popular with well informed BAAA people since the 1950's

 

[cw308]

Mr.G
Just to clarify , when I post that I'm a benchrest shooter it's because I don't want them to think I hunt or I compete in shooting matches , I only benchrest shoot and reload only for target shooting . Why do you jump on every word that someone posts and make it a talking point . Just stick to the question the OP posted . Maybe you should post a open discussion on safe and accurate reloading .
No don't it would go on forever with a ton of confusion .