neck size or full length size ?

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Bart B.

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That link says sizing part of the case neck better centers it in the chamber neck. That's true when there's no external force (except gravity) on the cartridge and it lays in the bottom of the chamber.

That changes when an external force pushes the case forward centering its shoulder in the chamber shoulder raising the case neck and bullet centering both in the chamber neck with virtual equal clearance all around both before the round fires. If the case neck is well centered on the case shoulder to start with.

One external force is the ejector in the bolt face, if used. The other is the few ounce firing pin hitting the primer at over 15 fps pushed by a 20+ pound spring.
 

hounddawg

New member
well Bart maybe you and Guffy both need to call up Forster and set them straight since it is obvious that both of you think the Forster people know nothing about firearms.

or maybe both of you should just order this book from them


https://www.forsterproducts.com/pro...smithing-student-handbook-series-fred-zeglin/

according to the writeup

The subject is written in a way that any professional or hobbyist gunsmith can understand.

who knows maybe even a couple of old dogs could learn a new trick or two
 
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F. Guffey

New member
As soon as someone resorts to ad homs in a debate you know

Debate? I learned more about people by training dogs than I have learned from trying to live with people. My son left a dog for my wife to raise, train feed etc. It was not long before my friends would call to ask if I still had 'the dog', they quit coming, the same went for my relatives.

I put a sign on the front door, it was in Latin and went something like "Love me, Love my dog". The sign worked for St. Bernard, problem, my friends and relatives could not read Latin.

A friend suggested I contact "ALABAMA BLUEPIT", they suggested I contact Alabama Sally. They seem to think my wife's dog was an Alabama Leg Dog. And I wondered how it got to Texas.

I contacted her, she understood my dilemma, to save money she gave me instructions on the phone. She said Alabama Leg dogs are like a lot of people we know, she said the remedy is 100% fool proof. She said the Alabama Leg Dog was like a lot of people we know, they can dish that stuff out but they can not take it.

I have no ideal what is so difficult for you to understand, my cases do not have head space and the difference in length between the chamber and case is called clearance. And I ask over and over and over; "Where did the .002 clearance from". I am the one with the long 30/06 chamber, this stuff does not drive me to the curb. to off set the length of the chamber I add .014" to the length of the case between the shoulder of the case and case head by placing a .014" feeler gage between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die when adjusting the die and shell holder. Why .014"??? Because the chamber is field reject length + .002".

I have dealt with angry people for most of my like. And now you want me to call Forester? I have called die manufacturers, I called one because of reloaders on reloading forums taking what I thought were liberties. The question had to do with moving the shoulder back and bumping. My question: "How do they do that?" and then I blamed them for the confusion because the reloaders were confused by the name of the die'.

He explained to me they do not have a die that matches the reloaders description of the die, he said he understood what they are describing is impossible to do, 'BUMP DIE' designed to move the shoulder back, it is impossible to move the shoulder back with a die that has case body support. A die that does not have case body support will cause the case to bulge like a seating die when applying to much crimp whole the bullet is moving down when seating.
 

Bart B.

New member
Hounddawg, you misinterpreted what I said about Forster's comments. I think they know a lot about firearms. They didn't explain the rest of what happens before the round fires and where rimless bottleneck case necks and bullets are when the round fires.

Do you disagree with me on that issue?
 
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hounddawg

New member
Hounddawg, you misinterpreted what I said about Forster's comments. I think they know a lot about firearms. They didn't tell the rest of what happens when the round fires and where case necks and bullets are when the round fires.

Do you disagree with me on that issue?

I have no idea where the case is sitting when it fires. Don't really care. All I know is I like the POI's on the paper to be as close together as I can possibly get them. I'll let you and others worry about the angels dancing on the head of the pin issues
 

Bart B.

New member
I have no idea where the case is sitting when it fires. Don't really care.
Thanks for admitting your knowledge level about the issue.

Redding has virtually identical misinformation on their web site about what happens before then when the round fires. As does so many printed pages across all mediums.
 
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pwc

New member
Hounddog - now I wish your wife had whacked you with the spoon. Just when things were winding down......

It's like the little Irishman in the bar who starts a fight, then goes around drinking everyones beer while they are fighting.
 

F. Guffey

New member
PWC, please forgive.

Redding has virtually identical misinformation on their web site about what happens when the round fires. As does so many printed pages across all mediums.

A friend built 4 magnificent rifles chambered to a 7MM Wildcat with a reamer he made. He took the first one to the range, he had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 rounds he fired. He called, I told him he could have tested the rifle for that problem before he left the shop, I told him I could have met him at the rang and fixed the problem long enough for him to fire form his cases.

Years later one of the rifles cam back, he took the rifle to smiths that had to tell him they did not have a clue, one of them informed him he needed a bore scope. SO? He took the rifle to a smith with a bore scope expert. Nothing, no clue.

The next place he visits? Not a problem but he asked me where would I start. I told him, he then went to the Internet and got advise:eek: He wanted to show me what he learned on the Internet; he had to admit he had no ideal what they were talking about but it sounded like they knew what they were doing.

I explained to him when the bolt closes the chamber becomes a dark place, I explained to him that drives most reloaders to the curb. I explained to him I could determine where the case was located in the chamber before and after the firing pin hit the primer, I explained to him I could determine if there was a chance the case would suffer case head separation when the round fired. And I informed him I could measure free bore as in how far the bullet has to travel before it contacts the rifling.

Anyhow; when he left he knew what he had to do to repair the rifle. When he got home he jumped onto the Internet to locate the tools we used. No luck, he called asking where the tools came from. I explained to him if he wanted the tools we would have to make them.

On another day he called and wanted to know what was wrong with Remington Ammo. I told him their phone number was on the box; call them. And then he shows up with 15 fired 30/06 cases and 5 that failed to fire. Before he arrived they had managed to hit the primers 6 times with firing pins in three different rifles. The first rifle was new.

I measured, pulled the failed to fire rounds apart and weighed and measured them and compared the fired cases with the failed to fire cases and I was impressed with Remington ammo.

I removed the primers, I installed the primers back into the case they were removed from and then dug out one of my M1917s with a killer firing pin.

Like magic, ever primer busted off with one pull of the trigger. I knew where the case was in the chamber, I demonstrated the technique/method. When he got home he called back wanting to know where the tools and gages were available from. Same answer, we got to make them. And then there are tools that are available, finding someone that knows how to use the tools could be difficult.

And I said: Now we need to call the owner of the new rifle that purchased the Remington ammo, and that was not going to happen, no one got the phone number:)

F. Guffey
 

cw308

New member
dawg
Isn't it amazing how all the know it alls appear at the same time. Adding double talk to make them sound correct . I find it amusing . Hang in there d

Chris
 

hounddawg

New member
Thanks for admitting your knowledge level about the issue.

well no xray vision here bart, I just have to close the bolt and hope I am reading the elements right and that my hold is consistent.

Redding has virtually identical misinformation on their web site about what happens before then when the round fires. As does so many printed pages across all mediums.

so now not only Forster does not know what they are talking about but neither does Redding ? I guess you and Guffy need to go yank a knot in those guys butts and get em straight

pwc Hounddog - now I wish your wife had whacked you with the spoon. Just when things were winding down......

been on this forum for ten years now, not a lot has changed. Same players making the same arguments two or three times a month. Pretty sure it was going on before I got here. It's free entertainment, what can I say

It's like the little Irishman in the bar who starts a fight, then goes around drinking everyones beer while they are fighting.

Welsh and don't forget about picking up a fifth while the bartender is distracted and slipping off with the prettiest girl
 

Metal god

New member
I guess you and Guffy need to go yank a knot in those guys butts and get em straight

LOL , never heard that one before , Wait can't we just do that with one of the members here . That may solve a lot of unneeded back and forth .

I have no idea where the case is sitting when it fires.

All I know is most of my rifle ejectors are pushing really hard on the head when chambered . To me this means my shoulders are fully forward pressed up against the chambers shoulder before firing . What the firing pin does in that case when it contacts the primer I have no idea .

My thinking is if my ejector is pushing the case forward in the chamber . Depending on how much clearance I have between my case body and my chamber walls . By pushing hard on only one side of the case head . I'd think my case is likely sitting off center a bit to the bore axis before firing . Does the firing pin straighten that out when fired ? That I will never know because I can't fit in the chamber to see what happens when the rifle fires .
 

Bart B.

New member
All I know is most of my rifle ejectors are pushing really hard on the head when chambered . To me this means my shoulders are fully forward pressed up against the chambers shoulder before firing . What the firing pin does in that case when it contacts the primer I have no idea .
That's correct. Pin fires the primer and drives the case harder against the chamber shoulder. Sometimes setting the shoulder back a thousandth or more.

My thinking is if my ejector is pushing the case forward in the chamber . Depending on how much clearance I have between my case body and my chamber walls . By pushing hard on only one side of the case head . I'd think my case is likely sitting off center a bit to the bore axis before firing . Does the firing pin straighten that out when fired ? That I will never know because I can't fit in the chamber to see what happens when the rifle fires .
That may cause the case head to go off center but the extractor pushing sideways on the case will definitely push the case head off center. The case body pressure ring then touches the chamber. The case may jump off that point from firing pin impact straightening the case bit in the chamber. Whatever off center the case is, the bullet tip will be about half that much off center in the opposite direction with a perfectly straight cartridge.

As long as all this is repeatable from shot to shot, all's well.

Cut the barrel off at the chamber mouth then chamber a primed case and watch its mouth move around the chamber front as all the rifle parts function and move things around.
 
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Metal god

New member
but the extractor pushing sideways on the case will definitely push the case head off center.

It's interesting you say that . I've always assumed the extractor was cut/milled in a way that they fit into the extractor grove and once they snapped over the rim they no longer put any pressure/force on the case . They only made contact when they were pulling the case out or if you had major head clearance and they stopped the case from moving fully forward when fired or chambering . Kinda like shooting a 40 S&W in a 10mm chamber ?

Here we go again way off topic and I'm helping :eek:
 

Bart B.

New member
Remove the bolt, then put a primed case in its head. Lower the firing pin. Note where all the forces on bolt parts move the primed case.

Compare your findings to what Tom Spotti says. He's ignoring what bolt face in-line ejector force does to chambered rounds. It's much less than firing pin forces. Both happen before primers fire. He doesn't have, in my opinion, the wherewithal to understand why bolts must close freely on cases without any resistance for best accuracy
 
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hounddawg

New member
I don't shoot my rifles with the bolt open. If you ever figure out how to climb inside the chamber with a properly sized round with the bolt open let me know what happens, or not. I really do not care to be concerned over that which I have no control over.
 
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Bart B.

New member
The bolt is out of the rifle in my above test. I never said to put it back in the rifle.

You have total control of how your cartridges fit the chamber. You can alter or replace any rifle or cartridge part to change it.
 
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hounddawg

New member
so you don't know how a cartridge sits inside the chamber with the bolt closed ? So what can I do to a cartridge other than size it, and seat the bullet and primer correctly and check for concentricity. I already do all that, I was hoping you could tell me what more I could do since you claim to know more than Redding and Forster about these things.
 

Bart B.

New member
Yes, I know how cartridges fit chambers, before, during and after firing. Furthermore, this is not about reloading. It applies equally to new, unfired cartridges, too.

Easy to learn after one knows how external and internal forces act on them. And what the forces are to start with.

I've tried to explain this. Have you tried what I suggested with the bolt and a primed case?

You can push a case into a stripped bullet seating die then watch its mouth center on the bullet chamber. Functionality the same as the barrel chamber.
 
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