Mixed-Load Magazines

[Head-Space]

"Non-lethal" -- If you're justified in shooting the threat, you're justified in killing the threat. If you're not intent upon killing the threat, you'd better hold your fire. If you're going to shoot, shoot to stop the threat. That means use "lethal force" because it's justified.

If it comes up in testimony or cross-examination that you had the gun loaded with "non lethal" ammo, you're setting yourself up to hand counsel the argument that you were intending to justify "less than lethal force." You don't shoot if lethal force is not lawfully justified. And if it's lawfully justified, you need to ensure that you have it at your disposal.

As regards 6 and 7 above. When you draw your firearm, you provide the other party with legal justification to shoot you in self-defense. If you're moving to six, you're mandated to seven.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

"Non-lethal" -- If you're justified in shooting the threat, you're justified in killing the threat. If you're not intent upon killing the threat, you'd better hold your fire. If you're going to shoot, shoot to stop the threat. That means use "lethal force" because it's justified.

You seem confused. You most definitely can shoot to stop without the intent to kill and have be 100% justified by law.

You don't shoot if lethal force is not lawfully justified. And if it's lawfully justified, you need to ensure that you have it at your disposal.

Yes, but when lethal force is justified, you don't have to use lethal force. You can use less lethal ammo and be 100% justified. Not only that, even if you use full power lethal force, you don't have to apply it in a way that you feel will be lethal.

When you draw your firearm, you provide the other party with legal justification to shoot you in self-defense

This is absolutely untrue. You break into my house and are attacking my daughter and I come in the room and draw down on you, you have no legal justification for self defense. My draw was in self defense (defense of another) against you to stop you from being a threat. You are not then covered under self defense laws when you try to harm my daughter or me.

 

[Hook686]

I thought the idea was to stop the threat of pending death, or serious injury, not killing the threat. I also wonder at the idea on 'Non-lethal' rounds from a firearm. I figure all discharges have the potential to kill. Is that not why one of the rules is, 'Do not point the gun at anything you do not wish to destroy.' ?

I think if you have tested the ammunition, load what you think will stop a threat you are defending against. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Yes, but when lethal force is justified, you don't have to use lethal force. You can use less lethal ammo and be 100% justified. Not only that, even if you use full power lethal force, you don't have to apply it in a way that you feel will be lethal.

True; but since you can only use lethal force (and less lethal ammo is still lethal force) when you have a reasonable and immediate fear of death or serious injury, you are taking a big risk (that of death or serious injury) when you use less lethal means.

This is absolutely untrue. You break into my house and are attacking my daughter and I come in the room and draw down on you, you have no legal justification for self defense. My draw was in self defense (defense of another) against you to stop you from being a threat. You are not then covered under self defense laws when you try to harm my daughter or me.

It depends on the scenario and context. If he breaks into your house, the fact that he tries to use a lesser means of force than lethal force will not stop you from using lethal force to repel him in most states.

However, if we look at the post he is responding to, that poster seemed to be advocating shooting kids at the skatepark with snakeshot if they give you trouble under the mistaken belief that this is not deadly force. If it turns out one of those kids was a 21yr old with a CCW and you pull out your snakeshot and threaten him with it, he would be perfectly justified in considering you a reasonable and immediate threat of death or serious bodily injury and would be free to act accordingly.

I thought the idea was to stop the threat of pending death, or serious injury, not killing the threat.

Yes - and the most effective means of stopping a threat is a shot that penetrates a large, blood bearing organ or the central nervous system. This is most effective because it doesn't rely on the attacker's mental state to stop him. Instead, it physiologically shuts the body down. However, it also has a good probability of killing or seriously injuring him, which is why it is called lethal force. Killing isn't the goal; but it is a likely by-product. If the threat disappears though, so does your rationale for using this level of force.

 

[shafter]

I'll stick with one type of ammo. Anything else is overthinking the situation and borders on mall ninja syndrome.

Different ammo types may be useful in a wilderness excursion though

 

[Dave R]

Perhaps. Trooper Mark Coats might have had more success had he had a couple of 158, or 170 grain, hard cast, or Jacketed Soft Points in his .357 magnum instead of only 145 grain silver tips. The 145 grain hollow points did not reach the vitals of the very overweight assailant. Six hits, but not one reached a vital organ. The silver tip is a nice round, but ....

...And this is why I DO carry a mixed magazine in my .380acp. Alternating Gold Dots and JHP. If, God forbid, I ever have to shoot someone with a .380acp. I do not plan to shoot only once. I believe it was our own dear Tamara who said that good tactics for a mouse gun are "empty, run, reload." If I have to shoot someone, I want both big holes and penetration. One round won't do both in a .380acp.

The two rounds I use are reliable in my gun.

I don't want to carry something bigger.

 

[howwie]

I'm a 25 year old that still tries to skateboard at the local park and I am carrying. I've been to some parks around where noone skates, everyone is just itching for a fight or doing drugs. But there are a few decent skateboarders out there

 

[threegun]

IMHO, mixing (or alternating) rounds is a clear sign of either a) indecision or b) lack of faith in your choice of caliber.

Sorry but this is incorrect.

There is a clear advantage to mixing loads especially when you are expecting a specific threat. Some here have mentioned snakes. Obviously a snake shot would greatly enhance your ability to deal with that threat.

I had a situation come up several years ago and mixing my mag allowed me to prepare for this threat with a more effective ammunition. Police detectives warned us that some robberies had occurred and that the bad guys were using bullet proof vests. I loaded 6 magsafe super swat loads (capable of defeating IIa vests) mixed with my corbon 135 grain JHP's in my 10mm Glock 20. Numbers 2,4,6,8,10, and 12. Once the threats were arrested I returned my mag to normal (for me).

I know some will say just shoot them in the head and to them I say easier said than done especially under duress and on a small potentially moving target.

 

[shafter]

Howwie, You hang out a skateboard parks where everyone is hanging around doing drugs and looking for fights? You do this while carrying?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

True; but since you can only use lethal force (and less lethal ammo is still lethal force) when you have a reasonable and immediate fear of death or serious injury, you are taking a big risk (that of death or serious injury) when you use less lethal means.

Maybe, as you said, it depends on scenario and context.

It depends on the scenario and context. If he breaks into your house, the fact that he tries to use a lesser means of force than lethal force will not stop you from using lethal force to repel him in most states.

The statement was...

When you draw your firearm, you provide the other party with legal justification to shoot you in self-defense.

So he isn't using a lesser force but trying to shoot me for defending my daughter from him.

Whether it be citizens or the cops, when we draw our guns against a person or persons who are committing such as crime as to warrant the threat of lethal force (the draw) or lethal force, they then don't have legal justification for shooting the citizens or cops in self defense.

 

[howwie]

haha Nooo I avoid such places. But in my youth I did and never realized how STUPID it was

 

[TXGunNut]

If you're moving to six, you're mandated to seven

Head-Space: can we expound upon this? The idea of a continuum of force is that we, as reasonable people, STOP escalating as soon as we obtain the desired result. If six works, seven isn't necessary. There's no need for step seven if step six, or five, or...you get the idea...works, and it does every day. Yes, if we commit to six, we must also commit to seven, but a favorable action by our adversary negates the necessity for seven. Step six has caused me some sleepless nights, step seven is a whole 'nuther matter. I don't want to go there, do you?

 

[XR750]

I load (6) Six Rnds 110 Gr Hollow Points 357 mag.

 

[chrisbarcelo]

I used to alternate the rounds in my magazines. But Im not at ease with the arrangement JHP followed by ball ammo, etc. Now, I just load my trusty 1911 with ball ammo, Ive been practicing with ball on the range with no jams. At least Im confident that my gun wont have any feeding issues when I need it most.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How do folks who alternate fmj, hardball with HP analyzed the risk of needing such to 'penetrate' likely opponents as compared to the risk over overpenetrating and shooting an innocent.

The latter does happen by the way. Is that a greater risk than the crime not stopping if you put a round in someone.

Or are you fussing about extreme cases, like giant fasto absorbs rounds in stomach and then kills you with an extremely lucky shot with a 22 mag. That's pretty rare.

Except for initial snake shot rounds for outdoor carry and snakes - I really don't buy into the "I have to penetrate a car or crazed meth body armored zombie" as compared to the overpenetration risk.

 

[threegun]

Glenn, The body armored thugs I mentioned were a real threat. Rare to the point that we never even considered it a possibility until HCSO detectives warned us of the threat in our area by a single group. I still only prepare for this rare event with my failure to stop drills.

As for your question........

How do folks who alternate fmj, hardball with HP analyzed the risk of needing such to 'penetrate' likely opponents as compared to the risk over overpenetrating and shooting an innocent.

.........I can only answer by saying I will do all possible to avoid harm to innocents however my first and foremost duty is to survive the encounter. If I feel it necessary to load a round more prone to over penetration it will be for good reason (in my mind).

Heck many of the 1911 guys can't even consider hollow points for reliability reasons. Should they only engage vehicles or fat guys?

I'm gonna load what I feel will aid me in doing what needs to be done to win the fight. If mixing a mag to cover different threats is needed so be it.

 

[Dave R]

How do folks who alternate fmj, hardball with HP analyzed the risk of needing such to 'penetrate' likely opponents as compared to the risk over overpenetrating and shooting an innocent.

I alternate, and I don't think the risk of overpenetration with .380acp is very high.

As others have said, I don't think too many people with "major" handguns alternate. Just those of us with minor calibers.

 

[booker_t]

Except for initial snake shot rounds for outdoor carry and snakes - I really don't buy into the "I have to penetrate a car or crazed meth body armored zombie" as compared to the overpenetration risk.

Glenn, I tend to agree with you.

I feel that too many people only assess risk regarding the consequence aspect, and don't take into account the probability component. A particular event may have a catastrophic outcome but an extremely remote probability of occurance, in which case the risk of that event is medium or even low. On the other hand, a different event may have a negligable or marginal outcome but be extremely likely to occur, which would carry with it a higher level of risk.

How many people who "set up" their magazine loads really do any involved risk analysis? Do you come up with a list of potential events in your life, do the risk analysis, and then rack & stack them to determine your "combat load?"

Glenn, I've been reading your work and I'm interested in your take on the effect on a shooter's decision making if they have a mixed load magazine, in a self defense scenario where the potential for collatoral damage from over penetration is real. Would the armed citizen hesitate, or would their reaction be slowed as a result? What if the first few rounds out of the gun were less-than-lethal, how does that affect their reaction, and do you think they are more likely to draw on an assailant given that loading? It seems to me that it would tend to foster escalation rather than peaceful conflict resolution or flight/retreat.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Good question - kind of busy now - so I'll deal with it later. Thanks for thinking deeply about the issue.

 

[ClydeFrog]

mixed messages, mixed loads..

I say; "Mix drinks, not magazines!"

Really, I do not mix rounds in magazines or advise any LE officer, armed PI/security guard or licensed citizen to do it.
It makes much more sense to use one type of load then switch with a fully loaded spare mag or 2 with a different round.
Like Glaser Safety Slugs in the pistol and CorBon PowRBall in a spare magazine. Or a .45acp 200gr JHP +P Gold Dot in the pistol with a spare mag loaded with 230gr milspec FMJ.

I knew a MP SGT in the military who would carry a Glaser Blue Safety Slug 9mm round in the chamber but 15 rounds of 9mmNATO FMJ in his own S&W 5906. That was many years ago when Glasers Magsafe etc were $2/3.00 per round and not that popular with the US shooting public.

CF
ps: In one of his non fiction books about his military service in SE Asia, CDR Richard "Demo Dick" Marcinko, US SEAL(retired), www.dickmarcinko.com , wrote that he'd load his CAR-15/M-16 5.56mm mags with red tracer rounds first then the FMJ/NATO rounds. That way in combat he would quickly know his rifle was going dry, .