Mixed-Load Magazines

UpandAtIt

Moderator
When I carry in the city, I load in the magazine with what my local police use. When I am in the outback, I carry three magazines when I have an auto, each magazine is loaded with a specific use round and have practiced in what mag and when, just depends on the situation.

I never mix within the same magazine, one, if you need to change your ammo thoughts immediately, unloading, finding the right rounds and reloading the mag can be costly. Two, the chances for jams, stove pipes and FTE are greater, not probable, but possible.

When I carry a revolver, I can easily mix the cylinder up as long as I make sure the first round is timed right for fire. Changing out a cylinder is much easier than a magazine unloading and reloading.
 

wayneinFL

New member
Mixing rounds makes no sense, get a good modern HP and go with it. Snak shot is downright dangerous to use. It is not even a good wounding round on smakes. Unless the perp is wearing a t-shirt you probably won't even draw blood.

I agree. There was a burglary up in Orlando a few years back in which a homeowner went to investigate a noise in his garage. He opened a cabinet, found the burglar hiding, and emptied a revolver full of snakeshot into his face. Made the burglar madder than hell. The burglar went outside, got a gun he had stolen in a previous burglary and shot up the old man's car. Fortunately, the burglar didn't shoot the old man.

To the wishy-washy who want to put snake shot in a defensive sidearm:

If you want a less lethal weapon, get OC spray. If you want an all the way lethal weapon, get a firearm. Don't get a firearm and try to "set it to stun."
 

BeerSleeper

New member
WayneinFL said:
Don't get a firearm and try to "set it to stun."
Excellent point. If one really wants a "phasers on stun" type of defensive, I'd suggest one of those tasers that shoots the probes out of it would be a better choice.
 
I agree. There was a burglary up in Orlando a few years back in which a homeowner went to investigate a noise in his garage. He opened a cabinet, found the burglar hiding, and emptied a revolver full of snakeshot into his face. Made the burglar madder than hell. The burglar went outside, got a gun he had stolen in a previous burglary and shot up the old man's car. Fortunately, the burglar didn't shoot the old man.

That is a great story. Do you actually have a source for it? It would be nice to be able to point folks considering using snakeshot to a link for the story.
 

usmcgundog

New member
It's my opinion that, with modern ammunition, it's silly to mix loads in the same handgun magazine.

Non-lethal rounds as #1 and #2 in a handgun? Man, if a threat is bad enough for me to draw my weapon and fire it, it's danged sure bad enough that I want "something" that will greatly increase my chances of stopping said threat.
You hit the nail on the Head.
 

wayneinFL

New member
Hmmm. This sounds like the story, but the details aren't exactly as I remember them. Maybe I'm mixing it up with another story in Orlando? Hard to say- seems like burglars are always getting shot in Orlando.

From: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?ID=3430


Homeowner wounds burglars with Follow-Up (Forest Hills, Tennessee - May 20, 2002)

Homeowner wounds burglars

Originally ran here as:
Forest Hills homeowner wounds burglary suspects
by Brad Schrade, Staff Writer
The Tennessean
May 20, 2002

Forest Hills homeowner wounds burglary suspects

A Forest Hills man shot two armed burglars at his home early yesterday morning and, police say, the burglars were lucky that Roy Luckett grabbed his wife's gun.

When the burglar alarm went off at 2 a.m. in Luckett's two-story home at 939 Tyne Blvd., it woke him and his wife, Patsy. Luckett had the choice of two guns in their bedroom  his .45-caliber handgun and his wife's less powerful, .38-caliber pistol, loaded with "snake shot" pellets.

He grabbed the .38 and went downstairs.

After searching the first floor, Luckett, 67, went to the basement, where a door near the garage was cracked open, his attorney Clark Spoden said.

Luckett thought the wind had blown it open; he closed the door and was about to go back upstairs when Patsy called down to him.

"She said, 'Did you check all the rooms?' " Spoden said. "(Luckett) was in a storage room adjacent to the furnace room and heard this noise."

Luckett opened the furnace-room door to find two figures standing in the darkness, and he fired three times, emptying the gun, Spoden said.

Police say the two burglary suspects were masked and armed with rifles, Spoden said.

The pellets hit one suspect, Micah R. Ladd, 20, in the arm. The other suspect, a juvenile, 17, whose name police withheld, was hit in the face.

Luckett ran upstairs and grabbed the .45. The suspects struggled to get the garage door open and once they did, fled through the garage, police and Spoden said.

The pair fired 14 rounds from at least one of the rifles into Patsy Luckett's sport utility vehicle, piercing its body and shattering a window, Spoden and police said.

When police arrived in the neighborhood, where homes are appraised in the $1 million range, they followed a trail of blood from the Lucketts' furnace room, through the garage and into the woods, where they found a black mask and a flashlight.

Metro police say the two wounded suspects stopped near the Harding Place/Humber Drive intersection and phoned for medical help.

Ladd, who was treated and released from a hospital, admitted to the burglary, according to a police statement, and led detectives to the two rifles that he had stashed at his home at Hillview Heights near Franklin Pike before calling for medical help.

The juvenile is being treated at Vanderbilt University Medical Center and will be booked into juvenile detention upon release, the police statement said.

The Lucketts were not injured. Metro police spokesman Don Aaron was quoted in a television report saying that the two suspects were fortunate Roy Luckett chose the gun he did.

Luckett said he does not know why the suspects stayed in the house after the alarm went off.

"They were lucky I didn't take the .45," he said.

"No telling what would have happened. God just guided me through that night."

Break-in suspect is Chase's son

Originally ran here as:
Break-in suspect is Chase's son
by Sheila Burke, Staff Writer
The Tennessean
May 21, 2002

Break-in suspect is Chase's son

Longtime television talk show host Charlie Chase yesterday acknowledged that his teen-age son was one of two males accused by Metro police of breaking into an Oak Hill home to rob a 67-year-old man and his wife early Sunday.

The son, David Bernard, 17, was in stable condition last night at Vanderbilt University Medical Center after being shot in the face by the homeowner, Roy W. Luckett, of 939 Tyne Blvd. Charlie Chase is the professional name of Charles W. Bernard.

While not naming the teen, police said a 17-year-old and 20-year-old Micah Ladd broke into the home armed with a Bulgarian rifle similar to an AK-47 assault rifle and a .22-caliber pistol.

Chase, in a statement released to the media said his family was "in complete shock." Chase declined through a spokesman to give an interview.

"My family and I simply don't understand what has happened," the statement said. "We're in complete shock. We are just now beginning to learn details. The whole matter seems so unreal.

"Whatever did happen, we are thankful that David is alive. It was traumatic for everyone involved, including Mr. and Mrs. Luckett. Our thoughts are with them, as well."

The intruders had duct tape, police spokesman Don Aaron said, and "we believe that they intended to rob Mr. and Mrs. Luckett and in the process bind them while the robbery took place."

Still unknown, police said, is how the pair acquired the weapons and why the Luckett home was targeted.

Chase sold a home on Tyne Valley Boulevard, less than a mile from the Luckett home, in April, property records show. He bought the home in 1997.

In his statement, Chase said it was important for the family to support David, and he asked for "prayers and support and for the understanding that would allow David and us to deal with this as private individuals."

Chase and Lorianne Crook launched a television variety show, Crook & Chase, in 1986. It aired for a decade on TNN, then in syndication in 1996 for a year, before it returned to TNN. The network dropped the show in late 1999.

The duo are now hosts of Crook & Chase Country Countdown, a nationally syndicated radio show.

School officials said records show a Charles D. Bernard is a student at Overton High School, at 4820 Franklin Pike. Several Overton High students contacted last night declined to comment. Messages left for former Overton High Principal Michael Hammond and current Principal Monica Dillard were not returned.

When the injured teen is released from Vanderbilt, he will be charged as a juvenile with charges including aggravated criminal trespassing, aggravated robbery, unlawful weapon possession, felony vandalism, possession of burglary tools and criminal attempt to commit aggravated robbery, police said.

Ladd, who was shot in the arm by the homeowner and has since been released from the hospital, was in the Metro Jail last night in lieu of $100,000 bail. He was charged with aggravated burglary, police said. Police expect additional charges against Ladd, of 831 Hillview Heights.

Police said Ladd has admitted his role in the burglary and led police to the weapons at his house. "Unless they have been modified, (the weapons) are not on their face illegal," Aaron said.

At a press conference at his home yesterday, Luckett recounted the events of Sunday morning. He was awakened by his home alarm system shortly after 2 a.m.

Luckett grabbed his wife's .38-caliber pistol loaded with "snake shot," which is similar to BB pellets, and began checking the house. He went downstairs into the garage and opened the door to a utility closet. Inside, he saw two armed masked figures and shot them, police said. Luckett said he fired all the ammunition in the handgun and then ran upstairs.

Luckett "fired his weapon in self-defense because he feared for his safety," according to Ladd's arrest affidavit.

The two suspects fled but not before one of them sprayed Luckett's Lexus sport utility vehicle with gunfire, he said. There were 13 bullet holes on the side of the vehicle and one, Luckett said, came within a hair of hitting the gas tank.

After fleeing, the two men tried to get help for their gunshot wounds, police said. Police said they tried to drive to a hospital in south Nashville but stopped near the intersection of Harding Place and Humber Drive and called for help. They told responding officers that they were shot while downtown, but police suspected they had just come from the Luckett house.

Luckett said the incident has taken a heavy emotional toll on his wife, Patsy.

"It's a shame that you work hard all your life and then have something like this happen."
 

Glenn Dee

New member
Mr Johns

I have given it quite a bit of thought. My prior post describes my mix of ammo in my H/D revolver. Although I have little fear of skate boarders, and almost never go to bars... I restrict my "In fear for my life" time to more realistic situations.

I respect everyones opinions, and often learn something from them. My personal tactics, including ammo load out works for me. As a civilian I believe I can articulate my logic in a court if need be. My decision to mix ammo is based on my experience, and my location. As I said... it works for me.

I must admit that I do fear tripping over my son's skateboard when coming in after a late night call out.


Glenn D
 

Glenn E. Meyer

New member
Which is more likely:

1. You will have to shoot through a car door?
2. A FMJ overpenetrates and hits an innocent?

- This is for an average civilian DGU?

So many hypotheticals? :D
 

johns7022

Moderator
Assuming all the testing has been done for reliability and accuracy..

I don't see a big problem with carrying a gun that has 2 rounds of snake shot, then 2 rubber rounds, then two Glasiers(low power), then two high power Glasiers, then two lead rounds, then two FMJ ball, then two HPs.

If hypotheticaly everyday you walked dark alleys, and everyday you got into a conflight with someone...imagine how many times, the BGs would run away, with bruise to the leg, or cops were cuffing up a guy in pain due to a little snake shot...no one is dead, no lawsuits, no charges...you solved the problem without having to kill someone...

And if you are attacked by super ninja homie, you just keep pulling the trigger untill a round that works stops him...

Now I don't do this, but for purposes of this discuss, varying the type of rounds that one needs for the given situation is historicaly and tacticaly not only relevent, but a given fact for those cops dealing with riots, people with armour etc.

Simply put if you decide to KILL everyone that is in conflict with you...then you might as well let the kids at the skateboard park beat you up, because no jury in the world is letting you off for killing all of them because a bunch of 14 year olds pushed you around....
 

raimius

New member
no lawsuits, no charges
HAHA! Don't count on it. You SHOT them. By legal standards, you clearly used lethal force. You must be able to justify that, or you WILL likely spend time in prison.
It matters not that you used "slightly less lethal" lethal force.

So, I did a mixed mag test again. Remington UMC ball and Winchester PDX1 Bonded out of my .45 CBOB, using the factory mag. No malfunction this time.
Theory results: inconclusive.
 

rbohm

New member
i have thought about mixing round in the past, and i have come to one conclusion, i wont do it. a handgun to me is a defensive weapon, and if i have to pull it out, i will shoot until the threat is ended. personally i will load my magazines with something like eldorado starfire, or federal hydrashock rounds. i want something to stop the badguys with reliably. i can deal with the legal aspects later. better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
 
i have thought about mixing round in the past, and i have come to one conclusion, i wont do it. a handgun to me is a defensive weapon, and if i have to pull it out, i will shoot until the threat is ended.

Okay, I don't think anyone here is discussing loads for assaulting a castle in Liechtenstein. We are discussing self defense. The notion of mixed loadings is that you will have ammo that would ideally cover more circumstances than might be fully covered by only one type of ammo. The goal is to stop the threat regardless of the loading.

personally i will load my magazines with something like eldorado starfire, or federal hydrashock rounds. i want something to stop the badguys with reliably.

Yeah, I don't think you will get reliable stopping of bad guys from those rounds, given that they are pistol ammo.
 

johns7022

Moderator
This is all moot...half the posters in here, carrying exploding nuclear fision hollow point bullets, will run away leaving wifes and children to deal with an active shooter scenario...
 

orionengnr

New member
I don't see a big problem with carrying a gun that has 2 rounds of snake shot, then 2 rubber rounds, then two Glasiers (sic) (low power), then two high power Glasiers (sic), then two lead rounds, then two FMJ ball, then two HPs.

Well, I only see about 512 problems with your scenario...however, for the sake of brevity, I will only point out the first two.

Using your above example, you have expended fourteen rounds on the first assailant before taking him out of the fight. For some of us, that is tweo magazines' worth of ammo on the initial assailant. :rolleyes:

1. Assuming he is not returning fire (and this is not a trivial assumption) will you still be alive 12-14 rounds from now?

2. If you take the time to pump 14 rounds into the first assailant, what are the second, third, fouth assailants doing during this period of time? Standing around idly watching American Idol on their i-Pod and waiting for their turn? And then waiting for you to reload so you can put 14 more into each of them? :rolleyes:

In real life it doesn't work that way. If you need to employ deadly force, you need to neutralize a threat right now.
 
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johns7022

Moderator
For the majority of peeps in here that obviously will run or go to guns, as being their only self defense option, I think the kids at the skatepark should get some snake shot..not dropped....

If your of the ilk that multiple attackers, armed are going to take you down...big deal...opening up a mixed bag of snake shot, glasier safety slugs, hollow points, ball ammo, etc is still going to stop them..

I think most peeps believe the law states they have to KILL the bad guy, not so, you just need to apply appropriate force to neutralize the threat and if the threat is a punch in the nose...then pulling out a 44 mag might be just a tad overkill...
 

TXGunNut

New member
Real life example here. One night I was night fishing and dozed off to find a water moccasin at my feet. I repelled it with LTL force. Somehow I dozed off again and the snake was back. Again LTL force was deployed. My M60 S&W was loaded with Silvertips and the rocky bank would have almost guaranteed a ricochet or fragmentation.
Next trip I had snake shot in the first two cylinders for the rude snake. I prefer a sharp hoe or shovel for snakes but was trying to minimize equipment carried. Snake was a no-show, fishing was productive but I was blocked on my way back to my truck by three guys who seemed reluctant to let me pass. I calmly put down my fishing gear, drew my trusty M60 and opened the cylinder to index past the snake shot. I had a speedloader in my pocket but decided indexing was quicker. My new friends were more than happy to let me pass. Mixing ammo worked for me and those guys that night, but I damn sure didn't plan it that way!
Back on topic, mixing ammo would work if you knew the exact scenario in which you were likely to use deadly force. Sorry, doesn't work that way. Pick a good ammo. Another magazine (pistol or rifle) may give you more versatilty but the rounds in the weapon are very important. Choose thoughtfully but just choose one.
 

kkb

New member
The only gun I load different rounds in is the bedside shotgun. The last out shell is a 3 incher, all the others are 2 3/4 inch.

I have trouble counting to six sometimes and the extra umph from that last shell is going to tell me it's time to transition to another weapon.

Seems to work at the range. :rolleyes:
 
For the majority of peeps in here that obviously will run or go to guns, as being their only self defense option, I think the kids at the skatepark should get some snake shot..not dropped....

I think most peeps believe the law states they have to KILL the bad guy, not so, you just need to apply appropriate force to neutralize the threat and if the threat is a punch in the nose...then pulling out a 44 mag might be just a tad overkill...

I'm not sure what your point is here. From a legal perspective, shooting anyone with snakeshot is the same as shooting them with a .44 magnum hollowpoint. In both cases, you will only be justified in doing so if you can show a jury that you had a reasonable and immediate fear of death or serious bodily injury.

If you can pull the .44 mag at all, then you are fighting for your life and snakeshot isn't going to maximize your odds in that fight. If you can't legally pull the .44 mag, then you can't legally empty snakeshot into them either.

You seem to be under the impression that shooting someone with snakeshot when there isn't an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury is legally OK; but that is not the case. Or did I just read your statement wrong?
 

ScottRiqui

New member
I'm not sure what your point is here. From a legal perspective, shooting anyone with snakeshot is the same as shooting them with a .44 magnum hollowpoint. In both cases, you will only be justified in doing so if you can show a jury that you had a reasonable and immediate fear of death or serious bodily injury.

+1

By mixing a variety of different loads in the same magazine, it really sounds like you're trying to implement a "continuum of force" doctrine using a handgun as your only tool, which simply isn't possible.

Here's a fairly-standard continuum of force model that police use:

1. Physical Presence
2. Soft Hands
3. Mace or Pepper Spray
(A K-9 unit would fall here)
4. Hard Hands
5. Police Baton, etc.
6. Threat of Deadly Force
7. Deadly Force

The only steps that a handgun is suitable for are 6 & 7. As soon as you expose/draw your pistol, you're already legally at step 6, and the instant you fire, you're at step 7, regardless of what kind of load is in the chamber.
 

dinsmore83

New member
The only steps that a handgun is suitable for are 6 & 7. As soon as you expose/draw your pistol, you're already legally at step 6, and the instant you fire, you're at step 7, regardless of what kind of load is in the chamber.

exactly true,

and, Johns 7022, at least where I am, you are not legally required to use other means before employing deadly force, IF you feel your life is in danger, yes the goal is to stop the threat, but using maximum force at your disposal is the fastest way to neutralize said threat, it might SEEM like overkill, but if you do not neutralize the threat quickly, you risk further threats to your life.
 
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