Is it Time for Israel to Drive out the Palestinians?

[DAVID NANCARROW]

I spent some time in Saudi last year, and the rules they play by are not Hoyle. Talked to some of the Egyptians, Syrians, and Paki's I worked with about the Jewish state, and the common thread is they were taught it is not only okay to kill Jews, but it is encouraged and it brings them status. They can take their arguments and put them in their 4th point of contact. The Muslim faith has been so twisted as to not even being recogizable in their hatred of Yahoudi's, as they call them. The only reason I see which makes any kind of sense as to why the Arabs haven't overrun Israel is that they can't, and have had their butts whipped every time they try. So, the cowards that they are, try to get the Palestinians all stirred up while the countries around Israel point fingers and distort facts.The western press whines and cries about the fact that Israel won't stop their retaliation-I think the Jews learned their lesson from Nazi Germany pretty well. You can die by the millions and the rest of the world might worry, but the only reason the death camps were liberated was as an adjunct of destroying the Nazi's, not as a clear mission articulated by any government I ever discovered. Had an uncle who spent WWII in the airborne, and they were never told about the atrocities they later saw. There is ample evidence FDR and the press knew what was happening, but no concerted condemnation ever came from our government or the rest of the allies. Wonder why the Israelis get a little ginchy? Not me. If the Saudi's are our supposed friends, what gives them the right to try and humiliate our female soldiers/sailors/airmen by trying to make them wear burkas and such? I say, kit them out in fatigues and a basic load and let the religous police try to hit them with a stick! Bottom line-the Arab governments around Israel simply cannot be trusted and should be viewed with a very wary eye. They are not truthful nor can they be depended upon.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Skorzeny ... "root cause", eh?

"A barren superfluity of words. " ... Sir Samuel Garth

Your words reflect the same logic some people use in this country to condone assault, rape, robbery.

We'll agree to disagree.

Regards from AZ

 

[nswgru1]

Where do I start

Malone Quote:

For instance, I found this account of the Deir Yassin incident. It seems more balanced to me than the one you posted.

Well I read the whole thing and was begining to think that maybe it was as unbiased or even moreso until I got to the point where the actual "massacre" occured and then I was begining to have my doubts. To be nitpicky here I did notice that the article in question is filled with emotionaly charged statements intermingled with some documentation which makes me wonder what the intent of the writer was. In closing lets just say that neither you nor I was present that day so we will never REALLY know what happened but suffice it to say that using this as irefuteable evidence of Israeli attrocities is weak at best and I hope I was succesfull at pointing this out. That was at least my intent.

David Quote:

Just heard one of the talking heads with Ariel Sharon-Big A said they should have killed Arafat 20 years ago.

Amen brother Sharon. Wish you had also. If you need any volunteers count me in.

Coronach Quote:

The militant wing of the palestinians doesn't want peace. The militant wing wants the destruction of Israel. They will not stop if Israel gives back land, creates a Palestinian state (which, incidentally, never existed in the past), or even gives up all claims on Jerusalem. So long as there is an Israeli presence in the region, they will be at war with it.

I agree why is this so hard for people to understand? All one has to do is #1 read ANY of the political writings of the people involved (including the moderates) and this is painfully clear. or #2 Travel to the Middle East and see for yourself.

Skorzeny Quote:

I recognize the realpolitik nature of international affairs.

That is debatable infact isn't that what we are currently doing?


Skorzeny Quote:

I personally consider the suicidal attacks to be immoral.

Do you now? If so quit trying to justify them.

Skozeny Quote:

However, I also recognize the fact that they are actions of desperate, disillusioned and suffering people, whose land has been occupied unjustly for over 50 years. Unless the root cause of such desperation is dealt with neither military nor diplomatic solution will solve the problem. Quite the contrary to what you stated, Israeli survival is not at risk here (though the sense of security of its people, perhaps, is).

First, unjustly occupied for over 50 years? So, what you are telling us is that this thing really goes back further than the 67 war? Is what you are telling us is that the land occupied before 48 is unjustly occupied? If so then the statement: (Quite the contrary to what you stated, Israeli survival is not at risk here) seems to be somewhat out of place. Please be specific Mr Skorzeny what is it you are really after? Are you after a peaceful solution or is this slippery slope you wish to see the Israelis get themselves into?

Skozeny Quote:

The entity that is fighting for survival at this point is the Palestinian Authority, whose future survival is very much in doubt.

And rightfully so it has not fullfilled its obligations under the Oslo accords and not to some peoples surprise it has recently been found not only ineffective in fighting terrorism and radicalism but actually promoting and providing means for such.

Skozeny Quote:

The documented you cited plays a cute trick with dates and figures. The document is subtitled “A list of 261 Arab settlements in the West Bank since 1950 The majority settled by Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi settlers.” Here is what the document ignores – during and in the aftermath of the 1948 war (the time frame that the document conveniently bypasses), a HUGE number of Palestinians fled what is now Israel proper (pre-1967 border) through Israeli military action.

First of all WHAT? What are you trying to say here it doesn't make sense. The reason that the document "conviently bypasses" is it specifically wanted to EXCLUDE the people displaced by the 48 war. Don't try to play tricks here Mr Skorzeny.

Quote:

. Why are there still these crowded refugee camps in the occupied territories? Did the Jordanians, Syrians and Iraqi immigrants flood toward Israeli border from 1950 and on to settle in refugee camps in the aftermath of Israeli military victories?

Why yes they did this is exactly what the document points out see my above statement.

Quote:

No, that is both logically and historically incorrect

The logic of it is that arabs imigrated TOWARD Israel because of the finacial opprotunities available in and around Israel. Come now Mr Skorzeny surely I don't have to give you a history lesson of the conditions in the Middle East durring the 50's and 60's now do I? Why do you completly ignore the fact that a large percentage of the Israeli work force is infact palestinian?

Quote:

The notion that most Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza are “guests from other Arab states who overstayed their visas” is a propaganda that pro-settler parties and religious extremists in Israel concocted to de-legitimatize Palestinians claims on their own land. It is an idea that has been rejected as both incorrect and illogical by most of Israelis, but one that gets a lot of credit among hawkish Israel supporters in the US.

Thats right if you don't like it, if it puts a 6" shell right in the stern of your dingy well heck just call it "propoganda"

I should have thought of that earlier.


Skorzeny Quote:

“Legitimate preventative measures”? You mean ones like routine destruction of Palestinian homes to make room for Israeli military bases, subsidized settler homes and special highways for use by the Israeli settlers only? Like abduction, detention and interrogation (with “moderate physical pressure” in Israeli government words – i.e. torture) of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians, the vast majority of whom are never charged, let alone convicted, of any crime?


YES!

Quote:

Like use of both rubber and live ammunition against stone throwing civilians including women and children (most of who would get a tear gas or a water cannon in most “civilized” countries).

Now this is just ridiculous Skorzeny. Who has been listining to propoganda. Have you really been to Israel? Have you really seen the size of those stones? They aint throwing pea gravel there Mr Skorzeny and if you don't think it is deadly I'll pull up some links to prove my point. The ba$tards better be glad the Israelis haven't decided to use Sarin instead of CN to disperse crowds.

To be continued

 

[Coronach]

Bottom line (IMNSHO):

Israel needs to figure out where she wants to draw her borders, withdraw all of her settlers back into that region, eject anyone they wish to eject from their 'homeland,' batten down the hatches and tell anyone who is pissed off about it to shut up or come take what they desire in war.

Note my statement about settlers- the actions of the Israelis in this matter proves that they are not exactly pure as the driven snow. If they want the moral high ground to go with the Golan, they need to contain themselves to their 'home territory.'

Objections over Gaza, West Bank and Golan require a certain amount of doublethink that is actually amusing if you consider it. Most forces in the region consider Israel to be an illegal entity, and any land that it occupies rightfully belongs to the Palestinians. As such, they went to war and ended up losing to the Israelis some more land...and this land is, presumably, even more illegal for the Israelis to occupy. Hmmm...I though Israeli was an illegal entity to begin with, to them. Hmmm...could this be incrementalism? First we get back the occupied territories (we have a case for that), then we try to take back the rest of it, too.

Israel needs to rid itself of this problem. Decide what parts of the occupied territories it doesn't need (as differentiated from want), push the people it doesn't want into those parts, declare them free to set up a state or do what they want, and be done with it.

Mike

 

[CMichael]

Senior Member

Registered: 11-12-2001
Location:
Posts: 247
I'm going to respond to several points rather than to quotes since I am a little behind.

First, I really don't care about the root causes. That is the same thing as someone previously mentioned of not punishing rapists and serial murderes because of their messed up childhoods.

The fact is Arafat and his "band" intentionally target civilians. They even have attacked school buses. What is lower than that?

There is no justification for this and it shows the character of them.

Arafat has never been elected. The Palestinians are run by a dictatorship. The terrorist organization Hamas controls the schools in the West Bank and students are taughted twisted realities and to martyr themselves for this psycho stuff.

I do not feel at all sorry for the palestinians. Five countries invaded Israel on the day of its indepndence simply because it exists. They purpose was to wipe out all the Jews in that country.

They were not provoked. However, it shows their mindset.

These countries lost some territory. Too bad!!! They shouldn't have invaded in the first place. They took the risk and they lost. If they succeeded in destroying Israel, they wouldn't be giving any land back.

The terrorists have had retiliation against them. Good. That's how you deal with terrorists. You hunt them down and kill them.

I think Israel has been too restrained in dealing with the terrorists.

Arafat is directly responsible for ordering the murder of two American diplomats in Sudan. Arafat, Hamas, and the other terrorist organizations are as much the enemies of the US as they are of Israel.

I think Israel has a made a mistake of not right away annexing the land and sending the residents back to their home country of Jordan. Jordan lost that land. The arabs who live there don't get to start a whole new country within Israel.

The arabs ultimate goal is the destruction of Israel. The day of the independence of Israel is known as "The Holocaust" to them.

Israel would be extremely foolish to give them any land that helps them accomplish their goal.

Israel is a democracy. It has arabs who vote and even members of Parliament who vote. Do you think any arab country would do that for Jews?

Israel has been very open with Jerusalem. It has allowed arabs to freely worship there as well as anybody else who wishes to worship there. Do you think the arabs would do that for anyone else.

Israel has been a constant friend and ally of the US. North in his book credits Israel with helping find the hijacked Achille Lauro.

Israeli intelligence warned the US about the possible Sept. 11 attack. What other country did this for the US? Saudi Arabia? Jordan? Those countries probably have a lot closer ties to the terrorists than anyone else.

Giving away land to Arafat is like giving land to bin Laden. They will take the land and use it to launch new attacks.

If Arafat really wanted peace with Israel he would have taken the 95% of the west bank that was offered to him that he refused to take. He had a reason not to accept this land. He doesn't want to have peace with Israel he wants to destroy it.

Michael

 

[AmericaFirst]

The "Israel warned US of 9-11" canard

In mid December, Fox News Channel ran a blockbuster series on Israeli spying in the US contending that Israeli intelligence had advanced information about the Sept. 11 attacks before the fact.

After significant pressure, Fox pulled the reports from their Website and went about deleting all references to the series of their's and other Websites. Fox has never given any explanation for this action.

Part 3: December 13, 2001
HUME: Last time we reported on an Israeli-based company called Amdocs that generates the computerized records and billing data for nearly every phone call made in America. As Carl Cameron reported,

U.S. investigators digging into the 9-11 terrorist attacks fear that suspects may have been tipped off to what they were doing by information leaking out of Amdocs.

::snip::
But investigators within the DEA, INS and FBI have all told Fox News that to pursue or even suggest Israeli spying through Comverse is considered career suicide.

And sources say that while various F.B.I. inquiries into Comverse have been conducted over the years,they've been halted before the actual equipment has ever been thoroughly tested for leaks.

A 1999 F.C.C. document indicates several government agencies expressed deep concernsthat too many unauthorized non-law enforcement personnel can access the wiretap system.

And the FBI's own nondescript office in Chantilly, Virginia that actually oversees the CALEA wiretapping program, is among the most agitated about the threat.
::Snip::
And what troubles investigators most, particularly in New York, in the counterterrorism investigation of the World Trade Center attack, is that on a number of cases,suspects that they had sought to wiretap and surveil immediately changed their telecommunications processes.

They started acting much differently as soon as those supposedly secret wiretaps went into place – Brit.

for educational and information purposes only, for discussion

 

[CMichael]

Big Deal. I'm sure that America spies on Israel as well. What else is knew?

Welcome to the real world.

Michael

 

[nswgru1]

Part Two:

Skorzeny Quote:

“Legitimate preventative measures”? You mean ones like routine destruction of Palestinian homes to make room for Israeli military bases, subsidized settler homes and special highways for use by the Israeli settlers only?

Skorzeny you know as well as I that the Israeli govenment is not destroying homes one day and then building Kibbutz on top of the rubble the next. Your attempt to make people think so by stating home destruction in the same sentence with settler housing and bases just simply doesn't make it so. Try again. Israel has destroyed houses and they did so about two weeks ago in Gaza but I have also been reading about shooting attacks that came from that same area. Seems to tell me that they got tired of people sniping at them from behind cover.


Skorzeny Quote:

Or how about the Israeli military curfew and siege of Palestinian towns, villages and hamlets that hamper any kind of economic life?

Sounds just like the curfews we are implementing in Afganistan. Pretty much par for the course. That is usually one of the first things implemented for security purposes.

Skorzeny Quote:

Or the fact that Palestinians must purchase their water at grossly inflated prices (tightly controlled by the military occupation authorities) while subsidized Israeli settlements enjoy swimming pools and fountains (a surreal sight if you’ve ever seen one)?

To my knowlege the distribution of the water supply in Israel is a
SOCIALIZED public sevice. Of course, I don't have to explain to you what socialism is but for the sake of information lets spell it out that means that the average Israeli citizen pays in his taxes and the government takes care of the cost of supplying water. The palestinians don't pay taxes into the Israeli govenment so why should they drink from the water they have done nothing to help provide? Let them drink sand for all I care.

Skorzeny Quote:

I can go on and on. These are not “emotionally charged ambiguities” – these are things even most Israelis recognize as factual and unjust. If you read Israeli newspapers enough, you will know that even Israeli newspapers have reported on these for years while our media have generally ignored them while emphasizing Palestinian terror attacks on Israel.

Yes you could go on and on and so can I. You continue to spout off about how many Israelis agree with you but and you every once in a while post some obscure article from Ha'aretz and you try to pass it off as some kind of middle of the road moderate article when anybody that knows anything about it knows that reading Ha'aretz about the politics of Israel is like reading the HCI monthly newsletter regarding "common sense gun legislation" some of us like to get a better "balanced" view.

Skozeny Quote:

You can’t play it both ways – on the one hand recognizing the Israeli occupation as legitimate while at the same time saying that since Israelis didn’t officially annex the land, the occupied population does not deserve self-determination. What Israel should’ve done was to either annex the land and grant the people on the land citizenship rights OR give the control of the land back to the Palestinians.

Well does Oslo ring any bells or sound familiar to you? The palestinians have had eight years of self rule to get their act together and things are worse now than they have ever been. I hate being right about these things but I was in Israel in 94 and knew then that Oslo was going to fail. It isn't in the palestinian people to peacefuly coexist. Why don't you wake up and come back to the real world.

Skorzeny Quote:

To be technical about it, there have been far more Palestinian civilian victims of the conflict than Israeli ones.

It is interesting that you should bring this up. I find this highly questionable and here is why: A couple of months ago I read an article on FOX news website nontheless, that stated the Israeli civilian casualties compaired to the palestiniancivilian casulaties the numbers were pretty dang close until one notices that they include in the palestinian casualty report the suicide bombers themselves hmmmmm doesn't sound like unbiased reporting to me and to be honest I expected more out of FOX.

Skorzeny Quote:

Nonetheless, to soothe the sensitivities of some people who are offended by the choice of my handle, I have been considering changing it to something else. I may do so in the future.

Please don't it helps me keep in perspective just exactly who I am dealing with here.

To be continued
Stay Tuned

 

[CMichael]

Haaretz is a left wing publication. Unlike the arab world, Israel has a free press. The US has the Nation and The Villiage Voice. Does that mean they voice the opinion of mainstream USA? I don't think so.

The houses that Israel destroys are those of terrorists. I shed no tears for them. They should pay a price for targeting civilians.

If they would stop targeting civilians for terrorist acts they wouldn't have big bad Israel coming after them.

It's incredible that these terrorists attack school buses, and then act as if they are the victims when Israel retiliates. If they didn't attack the school buses in the first place this didn't happen.

It's like Jeff Dahmer playing victim that he is in prison. Forget that he killed and ate about a dozen people.

There probably are civilians that are killed by Israel. However, they are not targeted. There are civilians who were killed by the US in Afghanistan. However, they are not targeted.

Arafat and his band of thugs specifically target civilians and children.

Michael

 

[DaveK]

Again, Otto, do you or do you not live on Indian land?

 

[Art Eatman]

One of the few times I appreciated both television and the United Nations on the same day:

Right after the 1967 War, there was a meeting of the General Assembly of the UN. The losers were harumphing around as though somehow they had been wronged.

After several rounds of this nattering, Israel's ambassador to the UN, Abba Eban, stood and drew himself up to his full 5'-4" and stated,

"There are three million Jews. There are 200 million Arabs. Is the distinguished delegate from Egypt trying to say we surrounded them?"

Making the rounds, back in 1967:

Q: "How do you identify an Arab tank?"
A: "The transmission has one speed forward, and three for reverse."

The UN gave the Jews a tiny patch of dirt smaller than the King Ranch. The Arabs have been whining about it and lying like dogs, ever since. There has not been one bit of Arabic action, one bit of rhetoric, or one bit of "negotiation" which wasn't considered toward the genocide of Israel. None.

I gotta go along with the Sabras' attitude of "Masada shall not fall, again!"

I always figure that if I didn't control my son's behavior, the cops would. The Palestinians are in the same exact position. If they won't control their own Bad Guys, the Israelis have no choice but to do it for them.

Art

 

[KP95DAO]

Kudos to the Mods.

The only thing I have to say is I'm glad this hasn't been locked down as it has been very good reading material. Thanks Mods.

 

[Fred Hansen]

AmericaFirst,

And what troubles investigators most, particularly in New York, in the counterterrorism investigation of the World Trade Center attack, is that on a number of cases,suspects that they had sought to wiretap and surveil immediately changed their telecommunications processes.

WOW! You have given me a whole new appreciation for the attendees of Unkle Ossama's Sleep-away Camp. To think that people who have exploited every liberal immigration, anti-profiling, afirmative action (both in the public and private sector, with a heavy emphasis on our University system) policies. Who have come here and spent years secretly despising us, all while working feverishly to bring our total destruction to fruition. Counting each and every day on people like Skorzeny to apologize for them and make rationalizations for their unspeakably evil behavior. To think that they were and are capable of all of that, and they remembered to change their modes of communication, right after commiting the worst crime in all of U.S. history. Who da thunk it?:barf: :barf: :barf: :barf:

 

[Skorzeny]

Jmbg29:

You write "Counting each and every day on people like Skorzeny to apologize for them and make rationalizations for their unspeakably evil behavior."

Please show me where I apologize for terrorism or make rationalizations? I unhesitatingly condemn terrorism, PERIOD! I am ANGERED that those I know personally have been targeted by terror at the WTC, at the Pentagon and in Israel.

But, at a "strategic" level, to think that there is a long-term unilateral military solution for such is foolish in the extreme. If you understand the history of insurgency, civil wars, terrorism and organized crime, you would understand that the root causes must be dealt with. Militarily knocking people off left and right may seem emotionally satisfying to armchair commandos, but they only bring a short-term peace at best. Such actions tend to make martyrs and breed a subsequent generation of followers.

That means, yes, you punish the perpetrators. AT THE SAME TIME, you must alter the conditions so that the ordinary people in the "target" area no longer have the reasons to support the perpetrators. In the particular case of West Bank and Gaza, that means ending humiliations of the occupation.

During the last century (20th Century), there was only one true successful case of a "big country" winning a "small war," an insurgency - that was the largely communist (and ethnic Chinese) insurgency in Malaya that the British successfully put down. How did they do it? First of all, the condition was much more favorable (most Malays did not support the ethnic Chinese communists). Secondly, the British promised to leave after the insurgency was over. There is a lesson in that for Israel.

To All:

There is an interesting development in Israel, by the way. A group of reserve officers have launched a movement of refusal to serve the occupation duty, calling the occupation "dominating, expelling, starving and humiliating an entire people."

One of the over 100 signers of the petition, Lt. (Res.) Yaniv Itzkovitch who served in both Lebanon and the Occupied Territories states that "You can't be both an occupier and moral. Zionism is not occupation."

Another signer, Lt. (Res.) David Zonshein says that in an area where he served, houses and orchards were bulldozed in response to Palestinian gunfire and states "We all have limits. You can be the best officer and suddenly you're required to do things that you can't be asked to do: to shoot at people, stop ambulances, destroy houses when no one knows who lives in them."

Ariel Shatil, who served in Gaza last year states that "The gunfire penetrates thin walls and windows, and that kills people, and you don't know who you're killing."

For the whole article, see:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/02/i...E.html?ex=1013636735&ei=1&en=54a1d97837287561

The declaration today in Haaretz by the dissenting reservists said: "The price of occupation is the loss of the Israel Defense Forces' semblance of humanity and the corruption of all of Israeli society."

It continued: "We will no longer fight beyond the Green Line with the aim of dominating, expelling, starving and humiliating an entire people." The Green Line is the pre-1967 boundary between Israel and the West Bank and Gaza Strip.

I suppose that those who disagree with my views will immediately cry "The New York Times and Ha'aretz! They are left-wing." That may be, but to simply ignore them without addressing the content would be an ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy.

Commenting on the situation the former head of Shin Beth expressed his empathy for the officers.

Former Shin Bet chief Ami Ayalon, who is also a former admiral in the Israel Navy, said last night that he had "a lot of empathy for the reserve officers."

In an interview with Channel One TV, Ayalon said: "A reserve officer at a checkpoint finds himself in an impossible situation, but he can not choose the easy way, which says that if it's so complicated the solution is not to enlist."

However, Ayalon went on to say that soldiers should not obey orders that were "blatantly illegal."

"As far as I'm concerned," he said, "too few soldiers are refusing such orders. For example, [an order] to shoot an unarmed youth is a blatantly illegal order. I am very worried by the number of Palestinian children shot in the past year." - from Ha'aretz

I guess this is a made-up lie, too, from a "left-wing" newspaper that "spews vomit." Oh, wait, the interview was on Channel One and people actually saw it.

Skorzeny

 

[Fred Hansen]

I suppose that those who disagree with my views will immediately cry "The New York Times and Ha'aretz! They are left-wing." That may be, but to simply ignore them without addressing the content would be an ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy.

No need to attack those left-wing rags. Military officers are not immune from turning on their own countries. Nor are they immune from being liars. We have our own John McCain. A decorated hero that cannot be trusted. He calls himself a Republican for God's sake. What exactly is republican about him?

Please show me where I apologize for terrorism or make rationalizations? I unhesitatingly condemn terrorism, PERIOD! I am ANGERED that those I know personally have been targeted by terror at the WTC, at the Pentagon and in Israel.

You do it by suggesting that completely irrational theologically driven behavior can be resolved by addressing "root causes". Unless of course the "fix" that you are suggesting is for everyone in the world to convert to the Wahabi form of Islam. The suicide bomber factions have all not only stated their position, they have demonstrated it. They have pledged not to stop until all non-Muslims (infidels) are dead! What part of that is unclear?

Skorzeny Quote: However, I also recognize the fact that they are actions of desperate, disillusioned and suffering people, whose land has been occupied unjustly for over 50 years . Unless the root cause of such desperation is dealt with neither military nor diplomatic solution will solve the problem. Quite the contrary to what you stated, Israeli survival is not at risk here (though the sense of security of its people, perhaps, is).

(emphasis added)I'd say that this particular quote sums up your position better than anything that I could ever say.

Militarily knocking people off left and right may seem emotionally satisfying to armchair commandos, but they only bring a short-term peace at best.

Please point out an example of long term peace (more than 100 years) anywhere in the known Universe. BTW I'll put my military knowledge and experience up against yours any day. Which branch did you serve in again?

 

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Skozeny-you should practice what you preach. One person called your views "vomit" and you got a bit indignant, turned around and and accused those of us suggesting a military reaction to the situation as "armchair commandos" is similarly distasteful, especially to those of us who served.

If a country or group of armed people who have sworn to do what it takes to drive you away or to kill you, have undermined every attempt at peaceful existance or negotiation, you shouldn't expect to be welcomed and not watched or have rights restricted. I'm not going to give a terrorist or terrorist sympathizer run of the town when the probability exists that they are going to bomb/kill/kidnap and torture the people I am trying to protect. If they don't like it-prove to me by example that you are trustworthy.

General Sherman was a complete @$$ to the south during the Civil War, but he knew that in order to win, it was important to not only defeat the soldiers, but to deny them the support of the people who backed them. Was it fair? I don't think so. Was it effective? Yes, but there was and in some cases, still is a very deep resentment and distrust aginst our government, passed down through the generations.

I do see some light in your posts, such as a "unilateral military solution" not being the final remedy, and I would normally tend to agree, but then I look at Yugoslavia under Tito as compared to what has taken place since his death, and the government was most certainly in better control of events for a long period of time, even if it took a dictatorship to do it-something I am very much against personally, but the lesson stands. Is it the only way? I hope not, but the future is not looking very good at this point.

The original question starting this thread was, "is it time for Israel to drive out the Palestinians?"
For me, the Israelis have two options:

1. The Israeli military and/or police forces are going to have to occupy all of their territory including lands the Palestinians live on.
No more joint control or portions given to Palestinian control.
The U.N. does not have the will to sit on those people in such a way that will minimize the killing. If the Israelis do not do it, I would like to hear some alternatives. I do not see a mult-nation arab force fulfilling this role, but I might be convinced differently if someone could point me to any country who might do it effectively.
Once the brutality is subdued, the Palestinans should demonstrate an ability to come up with a government of their own which is responsive to the needs of their people and not advocating the violence Arafat and his ilk does-never mind what he mouths, he has 40 years of lies to explain-the latest being 50+ tons of weapons and ammo.

2. The Israelis drive all the Palistinians out of their territory, including the occupied lands, and if necessary, push their permanent boundaries out to defensible positions and prepare to fight any contestants to their re-defined borders.

 

[Skorzeny]

jmbg29:

No need to attack those left-wing rags. Military officers are not immune from turning on their own countries. Nor are they immune from being liars. We have our own John McCain. A decorated hero that cannot be trusted. He calls himself a Republican for God's sake. What exactly is republican about him?

"Liars," eh? Most of the 100 or so who signed the petition were combat officers, not REMFs. What does John McCain have anything to do with it? I also see that you conveniently ignored the remarks by the former chief of Shin Beth. That ought to tell you something - even he stated that not enough officers are refusing illegal orders (if you know anything about our system of military justice - I think you may - you know that you are obligated to disobey an illegal order such as shooting unarmed civilians).

You do it by suggesting that completely irrational theologically driven behavior can be resolved by addressing "root causes".

No, I never suggested that (you must really learn to read a bit more carefully). As I stated before, the perpetrators of these horrifc suicide attacks must be punished. IN ADDITION, the root causes must be dealt with SO THAT THE CIVILIAN POPULATION THAT IS SYMPATHETIC TO THE TERRORISTS NO LONGER HAVE ANY REASON TO SUPPORT THEM! Deprive the "fish" of any "ocean," the fish doesn't last very long - a simple enough understanding for anyone who understands the nature of "national liberation" movements (or have read Mao Tse-Tung's On Guerilla Warfare).

In addition, the Palestinian attacks on the Israelis are NOT theologically driven. It is "nationally" driven. To address one of your previous comments, Christian Palestinians are more than well-represented in the Palestinian Authority. For them, it's not about religion, it's about "national liberation."

Unless of course the "fix" that you are suggesting is for everyone in the world to convert to the Wahabi form of Islam.

Palestinian Muslims are not Wahabis. Of course, you are correct about Saudis, but I thought we were addressing the Palestinians specifically.

They have pledged not to stop until all non-Muslims (infidels) are dead! What part of that is unclear?

If that is the case, why haven't the Palestinian Muslims attacked their own Christian population (which is solidly behind the Palestinian authority)? Because for them the struggle isn't really about religion, but of national liberation.

I'd say that this particular quote sums up your position better than anything that I could ever say.

Yes, I think that history bears out the fact that Palestinians have been unjustly occupied for over 50 years (since 1948, in fact). However, I mentioned repeatedly before that the establishment of the State of Israel is a fait accompli and, as such, we cannot obviously expect the Israelis to "pack up and leave" nor do I advocate that they do (I understand too well the circumstances of why many Jews fled to Palestine). West Bank and Gaza are different, however, and can be bargained for peace.

Please point out an example of long term peace (more than 100 years) anywhere in the known Universe.

I don't know about 100 years, but I already gave you the example of British Malaya where the British promise to de-colonize after the insurgency was won was critical to gaining the native popular support necessary to actually win the conflict. Also, "land-for-peace" isn't new - the last time I checked, Israelis have had a peace treaty with Egypt (for returning Sinai). Israel hasn't had trouble with Egypt since the treaty, particularly compared to the Palestinians.

BTW I'll put my military knowledge and experience up against yours any day. Which branch did you serve in again?

I don't have a desire to enter into a pissing contest with you online, which is why I've ignored all your insults and barbs. I don't really care to discuss my military or policy experiences online as I value the relative unanimity of the forum like this one (makes it possible for me to express things a little more freely). But I have enough experiences in both areas to have been consulted by the US government and enough to given briefings at the White House by a deputy national security advisor and at the Pentagon by general officers. That's all I am ever going to say about "the real me" no matter how much you bait me. Take it as you will and let us return to the argument-at-hand as this argument is not about me, but about the issue of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

[Skorzeny]

DAVID NANCARROW:

Skozeny-you should practice what you preach. One person called your views "vomit" and you got a bit indignant, turned around and and accused those of us suggesting a military reaction to the situation as "armchair commandos" is similarly distasteful, especially to those of us who served.

I addressed this point to you by PM already. My remark was not addressed to a specific person, but was meant as a general comment on those who boast about "being in line" to kill someone (even if that's Arafat) while comfortably sitting behind their computers.

I'd like to know where your vigilance about "distasteful" things was when someone called my remarks "vomit," called me a "BarcoLounger commando" and made numerous specifically-directed personal attacks.

While my remark may have sounded testy, I think that I've been inordinately patient with those who continue to hurl personal insults at me.

No matter. I'll refrain from discussing this kind of a controversial topic in the future. There is really no reason for me to subject myself to this kind of abuse. This forum is a hobby for me and I've been spending too much time on it as it were (it's pretty addicting though, isn't it?).

 

[Don Gwinn]

Jmbg29, you should have a message from me on the PM system about this. Yes, your comments referring to Skorzeny's thoughts as spewed vomit are over the line. It's also generally considered bad manners to use "so-called marks" (quotation marks) when referring to another member's intellect. I sent you a message asking that you edit those comments.

I've been through this Israel argument enough times. I'm really not interested in getting back into it. Whether your argument is right or not isn't the issue here, only the personal attacks. Once you edit the offending remarks you should feel free to continue the debate. Your point of view is welcome, you just have to be fair about how you present it.

Generally speaking, I prefer to do this sort of thing in private, but I'm not sure you got my message with the board maintenance going on and you seemed willing to discuss it here.

 

[Don Gwinn]

Nwsgru1, I'm not sure what you said, but either it wasn't bad or I missed it. Everyone, rest assured, I won't just throw vague demands for civility around if I can help it. If you've done something distasteful enough that I'm required to insist on changing it, I'll contact you somehow. Even then, it's generally just going to be a reminder about a specific policy and a request to change the offending remarks. Because you're all members at TFL, I know that 99.9% of the time you mean no harm and will be perfectly willing to fix any misunderstanding yourselves with no interference on my part if I keep my nose out of it.

No big deal; it's just a bulletin board. Well, the best damn board on the net, but still . . . .