Is it Time for Israel to Drive out the Palestinians?
- Thread starter Jeff Thomas
- Start date
My link above has been fixed sorry about that.
Don: If you are reffering to my post I must admit I don't think I am personally attacking Skorzeny but I am most definatly attacking his arguments. If you feel I have been out of line or taken the low ground please feel free to contact me.
Don: If you are reffering to my post I must admit I don't think I am personally attacking Skorzeny but I am most definatly attacking his arguments. If you feel I have been out of line or taken the low ground please feel free to contact me.
I have to say it is time that the Palestinians are driven out. The Palestinians elected Arafat and the buck should stop with him. His has sponsored terrorism for decades. That he has not been removed by his own people tells me that the majority of Palestinians support terrorism. After all, silence is consent.
Granted, neither side has clean hands, but it is clear that Arafat's hands have the most innocent blood on them.
Granted, neither side has clean hands, but it is clear that Arafat's hands have the most innocent blood on them.
From Google
A Story of Otto Skorzeny and Adolf Hitler
... Otto Skorzeny. SS-Sturmbannführer Otto Skorzeny was the most colourful and the most
famous Waffen SS commander during WWII. His daring rescue of Mussolini from ...
Description: Brief biography of the wartime and post-war life of SS-Sturmbannführer Otto Skorzeny, a commander...
Category: Society > History > ... > Wars and Conflicts > World War II > Personalities
Probably get another message from the moderators for this one.
But we are discussing history. Interesting name choice.
I can get banned - it's ok.
A Story of Otto Skorzeny and Adolf Hitler
... Otto Skorzeny. SS-Sturmbannführer Otto Skorzeny was the most colourful and the most
famous Waffen SS commander during WWII. His daring rescue of Mussolini from ...
Description: Brief biography of the wartime and post-war life of SS-Sturmbannführer Otto Skorzeny, a commander...
Category: Society > History > ... > Wars and Conflicts > World War II > Personalities
Probably get another message from the moderators for this one.
But we are discussing history. Interesting name choice.
I can get banned - it's ok.
AmericaFirst
New member
Israeli Government no ally of USA
Photographs released by the Pentagon of two Chinese jets that had shadowed the EP-3E Aries II on April 1, 2001 showed they were armed with Israeli-made Python air-to-air missiles. Israel is a supplier of sophisticated modern weaponry to the Chinese military. They were supplying OUR AWACs tech to Chi-Coms also only US got some backbone and stopped it, temporarily it seems.
Then Jonathan Pollard, whom Netanyahu recently visited in prison.
He never revealed the other moles in our intelligence services in Washington D.C., they are still there. The secrets he gave Israel they then sold to the Soviet Union who murdered our assets.
USS LIBERTY Memorial
Photographs released by the Pentagon of two Chinese jets that had shadowed the EP-3E Aries II on April 1, 2001 showed they were armed with Israeli-made Python air-to-air missiles. Israel is a supplier of sophisticated modern weaponry to the Chinese military. They were supplying OUR AWACs tech to Chi-Coms also only US got some backbone and stopped it, temporarily it seems.
Then Jonathan Pollard, whom Netanyahu recently visited in prison.
He never revealed the other moles in our intelligence services in Washington D.C., they are still there. The secrets he gave Israel they then sold to the Soviet Union who murdered our assets.
THEN THIS:
USS LIBERTY Memorial
Fred Hansen
New member
Don,
If you were refering to me, I will post an e-mail that I sent to Oleg as my answer. Hope this helps.
If you feel that what I said about the current fascination within the Arab world to adopt the death cult version of Islam is incorrect in some way, please cite me some examples of why I am wrong. Try weaving in some of the former smoking holes in the ground (N.Y.C., PA, D.C.) for effect. If a follower of Islam uses their faith to grow closer to God and they harbor me no ill will, I bid them peace. If, even for a moment, they adhere to their faith for the purposes of justifying suicide attacks on women and children, they can be assured to be not only the objects of my contumeley, but also of my wrath, i.e. I will plant them were they stand.
America First,
This is going to break RAE's heart, but you are now the winner of the gold in the non sequitor Olympics.
If you were refering to me, I will post an e-mail that I sent to Oleg as my answer. Hope this helps.
If you feel that what I said about the current fascination within the Arab world to adopt the death cult version of Islam is incorrect in some way, please cite me some examples of why I am wrong. Try weaving in some of the former smoking holes in the ground (N.Y.C., PA, D.C.) for effect. If a follower of Islam uses their faith to grow closer to God and they harbor me no ill will, I bid them peace. If, even for a moment, they adhere to their faith for the purposes of justifying suicide attacks on women and children, they can be assured to be not only the objects of my contumeley, but also of my wrath, i.e. I will plant them were they stand.
America First,
This is going to break RAE's heart, but you are now the winner of the gold in the non sequitor Olympics.
Shoot! I composed a huge message replying to most of you and when I pressed "submit reply," the board went into maintenance!
Unlucky I guess.
I will try to re-compose later (I'm going to have to learn to use Word or some other program to type out my message first).
Skorzeny
Unlucky I guess.
I will try to re-compose later (I'm going to have to learn to use Word or some other program to type out my message first).
Skorzeny
Malone LaVeigh
New member
nswgru1:
I checked out your link. There isn't enough info there for me to tell if it's a good source or not. It's interesting to read that there are a lot of Arab settlers on the West Bank. Does the (maybe) fact that they've only been there for 50 years or so make evicting them to bring in Israelis more just?
I'm not sure what the point is. Are you saying ALL of the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank are immigrants? Are you denying that residents (however long they've been there) have been run off of their land to make way for Israeli immigrants? Are you denying that Palistinians were driven out of Israel in 1949? Have you ever heard of Deir Yassan? (sp?)
I know the Romans weren't 100% effective when they threw the Jews out in 70AD. There must have been Jews there for 1000s of years. The place is a lot more complicated than most realize. Thanks for providing some more perspective.
I checked out your link. There isn't enough info there for me to tell if it's a good source or not. It's interesting to read that there are a lot of Arab settlers on the West Bank. Does the (maybe) fact that they've only been there for 50 years or so make evicting them to bring in Israelis more just?
I'm not sure what the point is. Are you saying ALL of the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank are immigrants? Are you denying that residents (however long they've been there) have been run off of their land to make way for Israeli immigrants? Are you denying that Palistinians were driven out of Israel in 1949? Have you ever heard of Deir Yassan? (sp?)
I know the Romans weren't 100% effective when they threw the Jews out in 70AD. There must have been Jews there for 1000s of years. The place is a lot more complicated than most realize. Thanks for providing some more perspective.
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
I wonder where the Israelis got all their patience over this conflict? If someone was killing my family from across the fence and would not negotiate a cease fire and would not honor peace committments made and agreed to, I would take a great personal interest in driving them into the ocean until they got it in their heads that the killing of civilians is detrimental to their lives.
David:
I also wonder how the Israelis have found it within themselves to be so benevolent with the palestinians. (of couse Skorzeny will balk at that statement)
Malone Quote:
I'm not sure what the point is. Are you saying ALL of the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank are immigrants? Are you denying that residents (however long they've been there) have been run off of their land to make way for Israeli immigrants?
No. I am not saying that ALL of the residents of WB are immigrants. I am saying that a significant portion of the ARAB residents of the WB are infact immigrants. (by the way ALL of the Jewish residents of the WB are immigrants)
My point was this:
Malone Quote:
Sounds like the apartheid-era myth in S.Africa that the blacks must have come from somewhere else.
You made an off the cuff statement like that and I provided evidence contary to your remark. If you would like some more evidence the try THIS link it comes complete with a bibliography. The information is of an earlier time period but is even more relevant to the overall beginings than the first link I provided.
Malone Quote:
Are you denying that Palistinians were driven out of Israel in 1949? Have you ever heard of Deir Yassan? (sp?)
The correct spelling is Deir Yassin and yes I have heard of that why don't you read THIS link and tell us what you think then.
AmericaFirst Quote:
THEN THIS:
USS LIBERTY Memorial
Follow the links provided up above to the section dealing with the USS Liberty.
Now this is a touchy subject because American servicemen lost their lives, but for you to say that Israel is no friend of ours because of Pollard and the Liberty is to dictate a set of standards to one country that you would not dictate to your own nor any other country. Let me inform you of some facts. You claim that the Israelis are not our friends because of these two incidents well let me turn the table for you for just a second. The US hasn't been that great of a friend to Israel either. Here are some examples: before the 67 war when Egypt closed the canal to Israeli shipping the US sat by and did nothing. Then actually durring the war the US provided photo inteligence to both Israel AND EGYPT then at the end of the war when Israel had total victory within her grasp the US told Israel in no uncertain terms not to achieve total victory. Then we did the same thing durring the Yom Kippur war. Then the US sat by and did NOTHING when it became painfully apparent that after the Israeli olympic athelets had been killed in 73 the German government and the terrorist had made a deal in exchange for their safe passage to a "friendly" country. Also, the US for the last eight years have been excerting tremendous pressure on the Israeli government to capitulate to a known TERRORIST. Sometimes I wish somebody would excert pressure on us the US to capitulate to Osama it might help some people to see with a little more clarity the bull**** that Israel deals with from the international community.
So about all I have to say now is I remember I heard somewhere something about not gettting splinters out of my eye until dealing with logs in your own. HMMMMM wish I could remember where that came from.
By the way that isn't meant as a personal attack against AmericaFirst it is simply a figure of speach. Please don't take it personal.
I also wonder how the Israelis have found it within themselves to be so benevolent with the palestinians. (of couse Skorzeny will balk at that statement)
Malone Quote:
I'm not sure what the point is. Are you saying ALL of the non-Israeli residents of the West Bank are immigrants? Are you denying that residents (however long they've been there) have been run off of their land to make way for Israeli immigrants?
No. I am not saying that ALL of the residents of WB are immigrants. I am saying that a significant portion of the ARAB residents of the WB are infact immigrants. (by the way ALL of the Jewish residents of the WB are immigrants)
My point was this:
Malone Quote:
Sounds like the apartheid-era myth in S.Africa that the blacks must have come from somewhere else.
You made an off the cuff statement like that and I provided evidence contary to your remark. If you would like some more evidence the try THIS link it comes complete with a bibliography. The information is of an earlier time period but is even more relevant to the overall beginings than the first link I provided.
Malone Quote:
Are you denying that Palistinians were driven out of Israel in 1949? Have you ever heard of Deir Yassan? (sp?)
The correct spelling is Deir Yassin and yes I have heard of that why don't you read THIS link and tell us what you think then.
AmericaFirst Quote:
THEN THIS:
USS LIBERTY Memorial
Follow the links provided up above to the section dealing with the USS Liberty.
Now this is a touchy subject because American servicemen lost their lives, but for you to say that Israel is no friend of ours because of Pollard and the Liberty is to dictate a set of standards to one country that you would not dictate to your own nor any other country. Let me inform you of some facts. You claim that the Israelis are not our friends because of these two incidents well let me turn the table for you for just a second. The US hasn't been that great of a friend to Israel either. Here are some examples: before the 67 war when Egypt closed the canal to Israeli shipping the US sat by and did nothing. Then actually durring the war the US provided photo inteligence to both Israel AND EGYPT then at the end of the war when Israel had total victory within her grasp the US told Israel in no uncertain terms not to achieve total victory. Then we did the same thing durring the Yom Kippur war. Then the US sat by and did NOTHING when it became painfully apparent that after the Israeli olympic athelets had been killed in 73 the German government and the terrorist had made a deal in exchange for their safe passage to a "friendly" country. Also, the US for the last eight years have been excerting tremendous pressure on the Israeli government to capitulate to a known TERRORIST. Sometimes I wish somebody would excert pressure on us the US to capitulate to Osama it might help some people to see with a little more clarity the bull**** that Israel deals with from the international community.
So about all I have to say now is I remember I heard somewhere something about not gettting splinters out of my eye until dealing with logs in your own. HMMMMM wish I could remember where that came from.
By the way that isn't meant as a personal attack against AmericaFirst it is simply a figure of speach. Please don't take it personal.
Last edited:
Malone LaVeigh
New member
Well the first link and the second link provided evidence that SOME West Bank Arabs were immigrants. Evidence that I take seriously, by the way. There are always two sides to a story, and I'm willing to listen to an argument that challenges popular ideas. I wish the folks who think all Arabs are terrorists and the Israelis have shown nothing but restraint would do the same.
History is is never neutral, of course, and we may never know the truth about a lot of those events. For instance, I found this account of the Deir Yassin incident. It seems more balanced to me than the one you posted. I'm learning a lot here, though it may be a while before I get all the way through that one.
I wish people would stop blowing themselfs up and killing others.
but I guess its not going to stop any time soon, I don't understand how a certain sect of religion tells people that instant
heaven if ya kill infidels? Israel is a little extreme in the way they
act towards the Palistianians, but what do you do with walking bombs? and the other Arab nations moan and do nothing to help
the Palistinians, just try to arm them, maybe arm them and lets see who wins, all out war , I'm SURE the USA will get involved and Arab nations will really be POed,and then what happens?
but I guess its not going to stop any time soon, I don't understand how a certain sect of religion tells people that instant
heaven if ya kill infidels? Israel is a little extreme in the way they
act towards the Palistianians, but what do you do with walking bombs? and the other Arab nations moan and do nothing to help
the Palistinians, just try to arm them, maybe arm them and lets see who wins, all out war , I'm SURE the USA will get involved and Arab nations will really be POed,and then what happens?
DAVID NANCARROW
New member
Just heard one of the talking heads with Ariel Sharon-Big A said they should have killed Arafat 20 years ago. Yeow!! Time to take out the trash!
Well, I've said this before, and I'll say it again.
Compromise/negotiaion is a non-option in this case. Israel is a nation-state, and as such she can negotiate as one. Palestine, for better or for worse, Israel's fault or not, is not a nation, and Arafat has little or no control over the militant fringe of his own people (unlike Israel). So, even if Israel and the Palestinian Authority negotiate a compromise solution (and lets really fire up the reefer and assume that Arafat negotiates in good faith) all it will take is a handful of nut jobs with bombs to undo it.
The militant wing of the palestinians doesn't want peace. The militant wing wants the destruction of Israel. They will not stop if Israel gives back land, creates a Palestinian state (which, incidentally, never existed in the past), or even gives up all claims on Jerusalem. So long as there is an Israeli presence in the region, they will be at war with it.
That is what Israel is fighting. Negotiating with a moderate group is not helpful. Its not the moderate groups that are in the driver's seat.
Mike
Compromise/negotiaion is a non-option in this case. Israel is a nation-state, and as such she can negotiate as one. Palestine, for better or for worse, Israel's fault or not, is not a nation, and Arafat has little or no control over the militant fringe of his own people (unlike Israel). So, even if Israel and the Palestinian Authority negotiate a compromise solution (and lets really fire up the reefer and assume that Arafat negotiates in good faith) all it will take is a handful of nut jobs with bombs to undo it.
The militant wing of the palestinians doesn't want peace. The militant wing wants the destruction of Israel. They will not stop if Israel gives back land, creates a Palestinian state (which, incidentally, never existed in the past), or even gives up all claims on Jerusalem. So long as there is an Israeli presence in the region, they will be at war with it.
That is what Israel is fighting. Negotiating with a moderate group is not helpful. Its not the moderate groups that are in the driver's seat.
Mike
My Response - Part 1
Okay. Now that I have some free time, here is my response. It may not cover everything, but I will attempt to respond to everyone in due time.
jmbg29:
Jeff Thomas:
nswgru1:
To continue…
Okay. Now that I have some free time, here is my response. It may not cover everything, but I will attempt to respond to everyone in due time.
jmbg29:
First of all, thanks for calling my statements “vomit.” That’s really classy and mature. Secondly, I recognize the realpolitik nature of international affairs. Nonetheless, in the post-WWII era, annexation of land by military conquest is deemed illegal by international treaties and conventions. To say that Israeli military occupation of others is “okay” because others have done the same in past human history fails to recognize the progress we’ve made as a species. Should we allow people burnings too since that was fairly common in earlier human history? The fact that evil things were done in the past does not justify injustice today.
Jeff Thomas:
You are absolutely right that the situation has deteriorated greatly. However, the Israelis are not dealing with just suicidal animals. I personally consider the suicidal attacks to be immoral. However, I also recognize the fact that they are actions of desperate, disillusioned and suffering people, whose land has been occupied unjustly for over 50 years. Unless the root cause of such desperation is dealt with neither military nor diplomatic solution will solve the problem. Quite the contrary to what you stated, Israeli survival is not at risk here (though the sense of security of its people, perhaps, is). The entity that is fighting for survival at this point is the Palestinian Authority, whose future survival is very much in doubt.
nswgru1:
The documented you cited plays a cute trick with dates and figures. The document is subtitled “A list of 261 Arab settlements in the West Bank since 1950 The majority settled by Jordanian, Syrian and Iraqi settlers.” Here is what the document ignores – during and in the aftermath of the 1948 war (the time frame that the document conveniently bypasses), a HUGE number of Palestinians fled what is now Israel proper (pre-1967 border) through Israeli military action. They and their children are the ones who fled to West Bank and Gaza (then under Jordanians and Egyptian control, respectively) and populated the refugee camps “across the border” so to speak. Why are there still these crowded refugee camps in the occupied territories? Did the Jordanians, Syrians and Iraqi immigrants flood toward Israeli border from 1950 and on to settle in refugee camps in the aftermath of Israeli military victories? No, that is both logically and historically incorrect (that is not to say that there was no such population movement, rather it is that the direction of movement was overwhelmingly away from Israel – that of Arabs fleeing). The notion that most Palestinians in West Bank and Gaza are “guests from other Arab states who overstayed their visas” is a propaganda that pro-settler parties and religious extremists in Israel concocted to de-legitimatize Palestinians claims on their own land. It is an idea that has been rejected as both incorrect and illogical by most of Israelis, but one that gets a lot of credit among hawkish Israel supporters in the US.
“Legitimate preventative measures”? You mean ones like routine destruction of Palestinian homes to make room for Israeli military bases, subsidized settler homes and special highways for use by the Israeli settlers only? Like abduction, detention and interrogation (with “moderate physical pressure” in Israeli government words – i.e. torture) of tens of thousands of Palestinian civilians, the vast majority of whom are never charged, let alone convicted, of any crime? Like use of both rubber and live ammunition against stone throwing civilians including women and children (most of who would get a tear gas or a water cannon in most “civilized” countries). Or how about the Israeli military curfew and siege of Palestinian towns, villages and hamlets that hamper any kind of economic life? Or the fact that Palestinians must purchase their water at grossly inflated prices (tightly controlled by the military occupation authorities) while subsidized Israeli settlements enjoy swimming pools and fountains (a surreal sight if you’ve ever seen one)? Or how about the fact that if you are a Palestinian, you cannot even build anything on your own land (for want of an unobtainable permit) without the IDF bulldozing your house while Israeli government continues to subsidize building of new settlements from seized land. I can go on and on. These are not “emotionally charged ambiguities” – these are things even most Israelis recognize as factual and unjust. If you read Israeli newspapers enough, you will know that even Israeli newspapers have reported on these for years while our media have generally ignored them while emphasizing Palestinian terror attacks on Israel.
Your analogy is an excellent one. Israel indeed has not annexed West Bank or Gaza. If we follow the implication of your analogy though, shouldn’t Israel grant West Bank and Gaza independence like US granted the Philippine Islands? I mean, we are not continuing to occupy the Philippines, are we? You can’t play it both ways – on the one hand recognizing the Israeli occupation as legitimate while at the same time saying that since Israelis didn’t officially annex the land, the occupied population does not deserve self-determination. What Israel should’ve done was to either annex the land and grant the people on the land citizenship rights OR give the control of the land back to the Palestinians.
To continue…
Fred Hansen
New member
You are quite welcome. Spew away.
Never said it was okay. BTW save the preaching about how far we have come as a species until after the animals that you so heartily defend stop sending suicide bombers in to kill innocent people. Progress? Hah!
My Response - Part 2
JimDiver:
EnochGale:
If your post about Otto Skorzeny is an effort to imply that somehow I must support Nazism. You are solely mistaken. I abhor Nazism as I do any form of tyranny, racism and centralization of power. My choice of the handle was indeed based on Otto Skorzeny as a commando. It came from an absurd episode in my life involving a VIP and a plane ride as well as from my education and training in German and Russian military doctrine and operations of ‘30s and ‘40s. I have or had used in the past handles like Guderian, Tukhachevsky and Zhukov (as well as several other military-historical figures). Does that mean I support, respectively, German militarism, Russian militarism or Soviet communism? I think not.
Nonetheless, to soothe the sensitivities of some people who are offended by the choice of my handle, I have been considering changing it to something else. I may do so in the future.
To All:
At this point, perhaps I should clarify my position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Contrary to what some of you may think, I do not necessarily “support” the Palestinians, even in an intellectual fashion. I have personal friends and acquaintances in Israel. I do not know any Palestinian in person. My personal and emotional ties are more in-tune with Israelis, not Palestinians, if anything.
That, however, does not affect my view that a historical injustice has been done on the Palestinians who have been made refugees twice – once from what is now Israel proper and then from West Bank and Gaza. Yet, even that is NOT the main reason why I advocate a reasoned compromise between Israelis and Palestinians. The main reason why I advocate the return of West Bank and Gaza (including Arab East Jerusalem) to Palestinians in return for their renouncing the so-called the Right of Return and their explicit and meaningful security cooperation with Israelis is practical.
What is that practical reason? The reason is this – in the aftermath of WWII and the subsequent rise of national liberation movements, de-colonization and consciousness of nationalism, it is no longer possible to occupy land of others and subject the population to oppression. The moral and practical costs for the occupier is simply too ENORMOUS as even Israelis learned so painfully in southern Lebanon. Such an occupation corrodes the real fighting spirit of the occupying military force and, in the long run, de-humanizes the society of the occupying power. Both of these have been painfully recognizes by Israeli military commanders, analysts and civilians. There is an outstanding commentary by Martin van Creveld, a noted Israeli military historian, to the effect that war is a mutually-learning activity, which, if continues for too long, tends to have opponents who emulate one another in rationale, methods and actions. He states to the effect that if one fights a terrorist long enough, one tends to become one himself and cites Israel as an example.
That is the reason why Israelis themselves (over 2/3 of them at last check) recognize the need for, and supports, the notion of a free Palestinian state – because they recognize that the present condition cannot continue and the alternatives are that either Israel finds a way to live in peace with an independent Palestine or it becomes a monster that engages in ethnic cleansing to “liquidate” (to borrow Sharon’s term) the occupied area of its native population.
That is why I advocate what the majority of Israelis themselves support. Unfortunately, the present situation is explosive and inflammatory. I agree with others on this board who say that the present situation is not conducive for a meaningful compromise. However, I disagree with them that this is because of Palestinian terror exclusively. While extreme Palestinians continue to blow themselves up in an attempt to kill and frighten Israelis, the Israeli military continues to lay a siege on numerous Palestinian towns and villages, assassinates their leaders, demolishes civilian homes and also continues to assist establishment of bitterly hated Israeli settlements.
In the current atmosphere, a compromise indeed is appears impossible. I think that such a compromise will require changes of leadership on both sides. This is easy enough on the Israeli side – they elect and discard their leaders as each fail to deliver the security and peace (except the one person who possibly had a real shot at it – Rabbin, who was assassinated by a Jewish extremist). On the Palestinian side, it is more difficult. The Arafat regime is highly corrupt and jealous and does not breed capable and charismatic leaders who can replace Arafat. Moreover, unfortunately, those who are in the fringes waiting to take power from Arafat (by force if necessary) are extremist and religionist in orientation. That does not bode well for peace.
I will try to respond to those I missed later…
JimDiver:
To be technical about it, there have been far more Palestinian civilian victims of the conflict than Israeli ones. Historically, the PLO has engaged in terrorism, to be sure. But Israeli military forces have conducted “operations” that have resulted in many civilian deaths, despite protestations from the IDF to the effect that it tries its best to avoid collateral damage. IDF has clearly undertaken operations to pressure Palestinian civilian population in both physical and economic ways, but couches its vocabulary in military terms by calling them “anti-terrorist” or “security” operations. A disturbing parallel can be found in WWII German military (not just Einsatzgrüppen, but actual German Army) operations archives which lists its brutal actions against Russian civilians as “security operations” or “anti-partisan operations” as if to suggest calling these actions in “professional military” terms would make them sound less brutal than they actually were.
EnochGale:
If your post about Otto Skorzeny is an effort to imply that somehow I must support Nazism. You are solely mistaken. I abhor Nazism as I do any form of tyranny, racism and centralization of power. My choice of the handle was indeed based on Otto Skorzeny as a commando. It came from an absurd episode in my life involving a VIP and a plane ride as well as from my education and training in German and Russian military doctrine and operations of ‘30s and ‘40s. I have or had used in the past handles like Guderian, Tukhachevsky and Zhukov (as well as several other military-historical figures). Does that mean I support, respectively, German militarism, Russian militarism or Soviet communism? I think not.
Nonetheless, to soothe the sensitivities of some people who are offended by the choice of my handle, I have been considering changing it to something else. I may do so in the future.
To All:
At this point, perhaps I should clarify my position on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Contrary to what some of you may think, I do not necessarily “support” the Palestinians, even in an intellectual fashion. I have personal friends and acquaintances in Israel. I do not know any Palestinian in person. My personal and emotional ties are more in-tune with Israelis, not Palestinians, if anything.
That, however, does not affect my view that a historical injustice has been done on the Palestinians who have been made refugees twice – once from what is now Israel proper and then from West Bank and Gaza. Yet, even that is NOT the main reason why I advocate a reasoned compromise between Israelis and Palestinians. The main reason why I advocate the return of West Bank and Gaza (including Arab East Jerusalem) to Palestinians in return for their renouncing the so-called the Right of Return and their explicit and meaningful security cooperation with Israelis is practical.
What is that practical reason? The reason is this – in the aftermath of WWII and the subsequent rise of national liberation movements, de-colonization and consciousness of nationalism, it is no longer possible to occupy land of others and subject the population to oppression. The moral and practical costs for the occupier is simply too ENORMOUS as even Israelis learned so painfully in southern Lebanon. Such an occupation corrodes the real fighting spirit of the occupying military force and, in the long run, de-humanizes the society of the occupying power. Both of these have been painfully recognizes by Israeli military commanders, analysts and civilians. There is an outstanding commentary by Martin van Creveld, a noted Israeli military historian, to the effect that war is a mutually-learning activity, which, if continues for too long, tends to have opponents who emulate one another in rationale, methods and actions. He states to the effect that if one fights a terrorist long enough, one tends to become one himself and cites Israel as an example.
That is the reason why Israelis themselves (over 2/3 of them at last check) recognize the need for, and supports, the notion of a free Palestinian state – because they recognize that the present condition cannot continue and the alternatives are that either Israel finds a way to live in peace with an independent Palestine or it becomes a monster that engages in ethnic cleansing to “liquidate” (to borrow Sharon’s term) the occupied area of its native population.
That is why I advocate what the majority of Israelis themselves support. Unfortunately, the present situation is explosive and inflammatory. I agree with others on this board who say that the present situation is not conducive for a meaningful compromise. However, I disagree with them that this is because of Palestinian terror exclusively. While extreme Palestinians continue to blow themselves up in an attempt to kill and frighten Israelis, the Israeli military continues to lay a siege on numerous Palestinian towns and villages, assassinates their leaders, demolishes civilian homes and also continues to assist establishment of bitterly hated Israeli settlements.
In the current atmosphere, a compromise indeed is appears impossible. I think that such a compromise will require changes of leadership on both sides. This is easy enough on the Israeli side – they elect and discard their leaders as each fail to deliver the security and peace (except the one person who possibly had a real shot at it – Rabbin, who was assassinated by a Jewish extremist). On the Palestinian side, it is more difficult. The Arafat regime is highly corrupt and jealous and does not breed capable and charismatic leaders who can replace Arafat. Moreover, unfortunately, those who are in the fringes waiting to take power from Arafat (by force if necessary) are extremist and religionist in orientation. That does not bode well for peace.
I will try to respond to those I missed later…
My Response - Part 3
AmericaFirst:
Israel is like any other country. It allies itself to country that supports it (the US and Turkey presently, for example, and South Africa in the past). That does not mean it places the interests of its allies above those of its own. That’s normal for any country. We cannot expect our interests to converge with those of Israel neatly on every single issue. Likewise, we need to treat Israel the same way (like an ally where the interests converge and not where they do not) rather than based on some ideological notion as a “Judeo-Christian” ally.
As for the proposed Phalcon sales and USS Liberty, yes they do bother me. However, I agree with others that these particular issues are of little relevance (a non sequitir if you will) in the present discussion on what the Israelis or Palestinians ought to do to resolve their present conflict.
jmbg29 (again):
BTW, for local Christian view of what they suffer under Israeli occupation, check out the following link:
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/december01/0112069.html
Many Americans have this notion that somehow Israelis are more like us because they belong to a “Judeo-Christian” tradition while Arabs are not like us because they are Muslims. This ignorance misses the mark as many Palestinians and Lebanese and some Syrians and Egyptians are Christians. If anything, the Israeli occupation of West Bank and Gaza is making the region less Christian in character, rather than aiding the (Judeo-) Christian cause as many Americans mistakenly think. The occupation has led to a diaspora of Palestinian population with a huge chunk of it being Christians, because the latter were often better educated and had portable skills that could be used in other societies.
Likewise, the civil war in Lebanon led to the diaspora of a largely Christian Lebanese population, because the latter were in general better educated and possessed portable skills. In fact, the largest Arab-American population group is Lebanese in origin and they are overwhelmingly Christian (most American Muslims are actually blacks).
On the other side of the coin, the reason why Israelis seem “Western” is because most of them were. Most Ashkenaji Jews who pioneered Zionism and dominated the Israeli society early on were Europeans in origin (including many refugees in the aftermath of World War II). There are, of course, significant Sephardic (so-called Oriental or Middle Eastern) Jews now in Israel. What’s interesting is that, prior to the development of the State of Israel, Sephardic Jews were far more like their Arab neighbors in their history, religious observation, tradition and culture than they were to Europeans Ashkenaji Jews.
Something to consider when discussing Israelis (they aren’t monolithic)…
AmericaFirst:
Israel is like any other country. It allies itself to country that supports it (the US and Turkey presently, for example, and South Africa in the past). That does not mean it places the interests of its allies above those of its own. That’s normal for any country. We cannot expect our interests to converge with those of Israel neatly on every single issue. Likewise, we need to treat Israel the same way (like an ally where the interests converge and not where they do not) rather than based on some ideological notion as a “Judeo-Christian” ally.
As for the proposed Phalcon sales and USS Liberty, yes they do bother me. However, I agree with others that these particular issues are of little relevance (a non sequitir if you will) in the present discussion on what the Israelis or Palestinians ought to do to resolve their present conflict.
jmbg29 (again):
I agree that both the attack on the US and Palestinian suicide attacks on Israeli civilians are terrorism, pure and simple. However, they have vastly different root causes. The Al-Qaida attack on us was indeed a “death cult version of Islam” as you put it. It also came from a latent anti-Americanism. The root cause of Palestinian attacks, however, is NOT necessarily religious in nature. It is largely nationalistic – that is to say, it is about what used to be called in the ‘60s “a movement of national liberation.” It is often ignored or unnoticed by many in the US that a significant portion of the Palestinian population is Christian in religion. Thus, it is incorrect to the lump this with an Islamic death-cultism.
BTW, for local Christian view of what they suffer under Israeli occupation, check out the following link:
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/december01/0112069.html
Many Americans have this notion that somehow Israelis are more like us because they belong to a “Judeo-Christian” tradition while Arabs are not like us because they are Muslims. This ignorance misses the mark as many Palestinians and Lebanese and some Syrians and Egyptians are Christians. If anything, the Israeli occupation of West Bank and Gaza is making the region less Christian in character, rather than aiding the (Judeo-) Christian cause as many Americans mistakenly think. The occupation has led to a diaspora of Palestinian population with a huge chunk of it being Christians, because the latter were often better educated and had portable skills that could be used in other societies.
Likewise, the civil war in Lebanon led to the diaspora of a largely Christian Lebanese population, because the latter were in general better educated and possessed portable skills. In fact, the largest Arab-American population group is Lebanese in origin and they are overwhelmingly Christian (most American Muslims are actually blacks).
On the other side of the coin, the reason why Israelis seem “Western” is because most of them were. Most Ashkenaji Jews who pioneered Zionism and dominated the Israeli society early on were Europeans in origin (including many refugees in the aftermath of World War II). There are, of course, significant Sephardic (so-called Oriental or Middle Eastern) Jews now in Israel. What’s interesting is that, prior to the development of the State of Israel, Sephardic Jews were far more like their Arab neighbors in their history, religious observation, tradition and culture than they were to Europeans Ashkenaji Jews.
Something to consider when discussing Israelis (they aren’t monolithic)…
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jmbg29:
On the other hand, according to your logic, I guess we ought to combat those who engage in terror and hurt non-combatants by doing likewise.
But if we do so, what makes us so different from these "animals"? Than it becomes a matter of might-makes-right. Is that the kind of world you advocate? Is that your version of truth and justice the American way?
BTW, we have made significant progress as a species. By and large, most civilized human societies today recognize that massacres, terrorism and others brutalities are evil. Not too long ago in our history, these were deemed "normal" and even encouraged features of war.
I condemn the suicide bombing attacks. I also condemn subjecting an occupied population to brutalities through force of arms. I don't see where I "so heartily defend" those "animals" as you put it. Obviously, you are infering that anyone who disagrees with Israeli military policy must be a supporter of terrorism. I find that illogical, ahistorical, simplistic and simply incorrect.
On the other hand, according to your logic, I guess we ought to combat those who engage in terror and hurt non-combatants by doing likewise.
But if we do so, what makes us so different from these "animals"? Than it becomes a matter of might-makes-right. Is that the kind of world you advocate? Is that your version of truth and justice the American way?
BTW, we have made significant progress as a species. By and large, most civilized human societies today recognize that massacres, terrorism and others brutalities are evil. Not too long ago in our history, these were deemed "normal" and even encouraged features of war.
Fred Hansen
New member
Oh Please! The Palestinian Christians are not the ones telling testosterone intoxicated teenagers (and now, as if in an attempt to be even more evil, young women!) that they will recieve "72 blackeyed virgins in paradise" for blowing up a pizza parlor full of children. Who is lumping who in with whom? Oh, before you even go there I know that the young woman isn't eligible for the virgins, save it for someone who is intimidated by your intellect.
To imply that I am unaware of the demographics concerning people who have been a threat to our country and it's people here and abroad for years now, is beneath you. Again you know better, but choose falsehood as your ally.
As you know, we as a nation do our level best to minimize civilian causualties. These particular enemies are so cowardly that they send their children out to die rather than fight like men, or surrender, the consequence of that is on them. We nuked the Japanese for exactly the same reasons. If the world thinks that we won't do it again, then they are delusional.
Which branch of the military did you serve in that you know so much of what we do? That's what I thought. A BarcoLounger Commando, come down out of your Ivory Tower Skor, that rarified air up there is causing hypoxia. You seem to refuse to accept the fact that people who have chosen suicide as their prefered method of attack,have gone completely beyond the pale.
If negotiation is a possibility, then why don't you go chat it up with Yasser? Keep him busy and distracted long enough for somebody to draw a bead on him. I personally know at least a dozen people that would delight in putting a Sierra BT through his brainpan. Put me right at the head of that line.
Had the Palestinians thrown themselves on the mercy of world opinion, they would have found themselves in a position similar to the post-holocaust Jews. They have had an opportunity for a homeland time and again. Each time they said "All or nothing!" Well guess what? All is permanently off the table. That leaves nothing and they are more than welcome to it.
They chose suicide bombing we did not choose it for them. Now they have virtually no allies left. If you think that redemption for the Palestinians is an option now, you are flat wrong. Some mistakes are irrepairable.
Edited at the request of Don Gwinn
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