Incident with a dog & pulling out a gun

[X_shooter]

Wow! This thread is still open?

I think people are more important than dogs.

Strangers don't know your dog, or if it will bite.

People that don't know dogs also don't know dog behaviors and can't be expected to act or react the way you would.

Why should someone wait until they get mauled until they feel justified to defend themselves?

Pehaps someone can provide a guideline of how much of a mauling one should endure and by which breed of dog to not be judged by many of you.

Don't blame the dog, blame the owner. Unfortunately it isn't the owner that will inflict needless injuries that will at best require a few stitches at the emergency room, or maybe rabie shots, or serous and lasting injuries to a child. None should cause the victim to bear the brunt of medical costs when they were just out for a walk.

I don't think he should have drawn either.

AHHhhh. I feel better now.

 

[CMichael]

How did I overreact? I didn't do anything?

 

[ZeroJunk]

OOPS, wrong thread. edit

 

[troy_mclure]

from mleake:

I'll just reserve pulling a gun for those occasions when it really seems necessary.

and this is the crux of the whole situation. and the reason for the op's post.

as he isnt as familiar with dogs as many, and should not reasonably expect to encounter them regularly, i find no fault with his action.

 

[Edward429451]

Besides, pulling your gun should give you the edge (in demeanor) to show that you are the Alpha, and you will fight.

This is correct. It doesn't mean you have to shoot the dog, or want to. I doubt anyone on this board wants to shoot a dog, but to be willing to is not a bad thing. Possibly some ex-Marines want to go hand to paw with a dog, and that is both impressive and admirable, but we aren't all ex-Marines or dog whisperers that can easily discern that the charge is a friendly one in the few seconds that they are in motion.

Pepper spray a dog so he can jump on you and return the OC to you? I'll pass. Interesting thread but so far no one has made a compelling point in why we should not deal with aggressive dogs with guns. That what guns are for, protection. Even if in some parts of the world the women take on dogs hand to hand lol...

 

[gaseousclay]

So you don't see that it's sensible to do what you feel is right at the time? I don't get that line of reasoning.

i'm saying that brandishing a firearm toward a dog should be an absolute last resort. I already mentioned this but the only way I would feel justified in shooting a dog is if it were a breed known to bite people, like Pitbulls or Rotweilers, and even then I would hesitate unless I knew my life was being threatened. the vast majority of dogs are harmless and it would be pretty sad to see someone's dog get shot because you felt threatened by them rushing you or barking at you. I think plenty of people here have already mentioned other non-lethal alternatives like pepper spray or even a good healthy kicking. you're not in the woods defending yourself against wild animals and this isn't the wild west. and the truth is, I would be far more suspicious of someone carrying a concealed weapon than I would of someone's big bad dog.

 

[CMichael]

Once again, what actions? I didn't do anything.

Howevever, when I saw that dog flying at me, it did make me very nervous. I could not tell what kind of dog or it's intentions at that time.

I also got nervous when it sat in front of me and growled.

I had a lot of unknows. I don't think I should have necessarily drawn at that point, but i should have had my hand on my gun.

 

[noelf2]

I already mentioned this but the only way I would feel justified in shooting a dog is if it were a breed known to bite people, like Pitbulls or Rotweilers, and even then I would hesitate unless I knew my life was being threatened.

How do you know when you are being threatened? When, in the 5 or so seconds that a dog us rushing you, do you get the hint? Remember, the op isn't talking about shooting the dog, just when should he draw down on it (or put his hand on his gun) and be ready to shoot it. Why not draw and be ready?? See, I just can't disagree with you more. Do what you think is right at the time, and so will I. I refuse to give an animal (and a dog is an animal) a chance to bite me. I don't trust dogs I don't know. I don't trust people I don't know either.

 

[Edward429451]

you're not in the woods defending yourself against wild animals and this isn't the wild west. and the truth is, I would be far more suspicious of someone carrying a concealed weapon than I would of someone's big bad dog.

Not the wild west? Surely you jest. Then what is it? Beaver Cleaver and a white picket fence land? There's dogs everywhere because people are so scared of everything nowadays. There's gangbaners who've killed more people than Billy the Kid, I'm not sure what Kool-Aid you been drinkin but this is a dangerous planet! Do the Rottweilers in your neighbrohood not bite anymore? These are the newer dogs that do not bite and have more rights than we do to walk around...I needed a good laugh today, thanks for that!

 

[Hook686]

MLeak

...But anyway, I also recommended that it would be worthwhile to gain some familiarity with dogs. Ways to do this would be having friends with dogs introduce you to their animals; going to off-leash parks with dog-knowledgeable people; volunteering at animal shelters (they ALWAYS need dog feeders and walkers); the list goes on.

I do have some familiarity. This disabled old veteran has a service dog. One thing I have learned in my time training with service dogs is to never think I know what the dog is thinking, or going to do. Maybe I'm just not very wise to the way of animals.

Wilfully remaining ignorant about dogs is your conscious choice. If you really think there are a lot of dogs in your area, and you are scared of them, and you choose to remain ignorant of how they behave - well, I'd say that's stubborn foolishness, but that's just my opinion.

Maybe I am just foolish, as I do not think I know what any animal might, or might not do, under any circumstances. Timothy Treadwell thought he knew.

Note: among other things, I SCUBA dive, though it's been a while. I don't play with sharks, but I have encountered them. You'd best believe I study up on their behaviors. Based on those studies, I avoid the water at dusk; I avoid channels that get cut off with tidal action; I don't keep bloody, speared fish tethered to my person; I don't dive in poor visibility; I don't wear flashy jewelry; I don't wear wetsuits the color of the local mammals or gamefish; I don't dive alone; etc. A bit of knowledge can reduce personal risk by a lot.

I too was a SCUBA diver back in the day. I did not dive alone either. I always thought if a shark shows up, there was a 50-50 chance the shark would hit my buddy instead of me. I also believed even with flares going, if a shark chose to attack, it was going to.

Going back to your ifs, ands, or buts, I gave a couple examples - injury to the dog owner during a walk, and a house fire - that I'd think even you would have trouble pooh-poohing. Seems more like you just want to justify use of a gun. In your world, there are never circumstances when any responsible dog owner could possibly let his dog loose.

I really do not care what lead an aggressive dog to be present and approaching me. The issue at hand is the aggressive dog and avoiding serious injury, or death. I would certainly hope the dog owner understands that I did not set out to attack his dog, and that it is unfortunate that his dog was aggressively approaching me.

Makes me wonder if you've ever had a traffic accident, seeing as you must be a perfect driver, and those never get hit by less-than perfect drivers...

Yup, in 66 years I have had two. In both those I had no warning of the impact. I suppose if I had no warning of the dog bite, then so be it ... such is life. However if I see the dog approaching, growling, teeth exposed, then I think I'd be pretty foolish to not take any defensive posturing ... and no I am in no condition, or shape to kick, box, out run, beatdown, or otherwise out muscle a dog, even a JRT.

Question for you might be, is the dog owner as willing to risk criminal charges as you seem to be? For what it's worth, I've seen worse fights at the dog park between owners than between dogs. Had to break up one or two of those, too...

I reckon that is a question for all who carry a concealed weapon, because if ever it is used by you, under any condition where you fear serious injury, or death, crimial charges are a distinct possibility ... right ?

 

[MLeake]

Hook686...

... I suspect your definition of an "aggressive dog" would probably be closer to my own, than it would to those of a lot of other posters' in this thread. Even if you don't know what a dog is thinking - and yes, they can be unpredictable as can any living thing - you probably can do a decent job of discerning actual aggression from curiousity or territorial assertion.

Would you really feel threatened by a Border Collie that ran up, then sat and growled?

Best two defenses against a Border Collie: 1) Frisbee; 2) Tennis ball. Throw either, and odds are you'll make a friend.

CMichael, I don't think you overreacted by thinking about putting your hand on or near your gun. I don't think you would have overreacted if you'd surreptitiously put your hand on the gun butt. I do think, in the situation you described, that drawing would have been an overreaction.

troy_mcclure, I understand what you are saying, but I also feel that if people honestly think that dogs in their area are an actual threat, it should behoove them to get more familiar with dogs and their behaviors, and especially with physical cues we DO NOT WANT to present to dogs. (IE, some things we could do are almost guaranteed to make a neutral encounter turn bad.)

Edward and Noelf, go ahead and draw a gun every time something makes you remotely nervous, especially in a city or a suburb, and see how long you go without losing your permit, at best.

All, consider the relative threat to yourself and others if you pull a gun and fire at a moving dog, in a residential area, compared to using a walking stick or pepper spray or something similar. For most instances, a gun is not the ideal tool vs a dog. A walking stick doesn't carry down-range.

Roy Reali, if you were out with the granddaughter, and she were to be attacked, would you feel safer shooting at a dog that was attached to her leg, or would you feel safer hitting it with a big stick, or would you feel safer blasting it in the nose with OC spray? Which would be likelier to result in accidental injury to the child? Which would put her at the least amount of risk?

Against a BG armed with knife or firearm, a gun is the better tool. Against a dog, especially when you don't even know if it actually intends to attack, a gun is at best a high-risk proposition.

Too many members of this forum seem to always be looking for a justifiable shoot.

CMichael, again not referring to you.

 

[roy reali]

re:Mleake

Roy Reali, if you were out with the granddaughter, and she were to be attacked, would you feel safer shooting at a dog that was attached to her leg, or would you feel safer hitting it with a big stick, or would you feel safer blasting it in the nose with OC spray? Which would be likelier to result in accidental injury to the child? Which would put her at the least amount of risk?

I would feel better if i shot the dog before it attached itself to her leg. I would feel awful if I could have prevented the attack and i didn't. Too bad you don't have the same passion to attack the knuckleheads that allow their dogs to roam free.

 

[MLeake]

Roy Reali...

... I've known my fair share of knuckleheads who let their dogs roam free. No argument.

Then again, in the town where I grew up, it was fairly common for people to let their dogs run loose. This assumed the dogs were well-socialized, I guess. Biggest problem I recall was when a friend's Husky killed a neighbor's rabbits. Dog had to be given away, or else it would have been seized, and the friend's family paid for the cost of the rabbits.

Note: Dog broke a cable run; it was not one of the dogs that was allowed to roam. Cable runs and stake ties were pretty commonplace, then. There were very, very few pens, and very few indoor dogs.

But that was when I was a kid.

For my adult life, most places have had leash laws; some have had bans on cable runs, and have required fencing and minimum enclosure spaces. My dogs are all primarily indoor dogs, anyway; they may spend a few hours playing outside, in a fenced area, by day, but they are indoors by night. No complaints from neighbors about dogs barking, etc.

However, I've had a dog that had Houdini skills. We're talking the ability to figure out a lever action gate closure, plus a pretty good leap, plus on at least one occasion the discovery of "chimneying." Dog put his back against a tree, and walked up and over the fence.

By the way, he escaped once while I was out of town and friends were watching him; once when my parents were watching him; and once while I was mowing the lawn (he tunneled out while I wasn't watching; I solved that by running some wire mesh a few inches into the ground along the fence line; tore up my hand a bit when I climbed over the fence in an attempt to grab him when I saw him squirming through his new tunnel, and still have that scar fourteen years later...).

Luckily, he was a very friendly dog. He also had a tag with my phone number, plus he was microchipped. Had he done any damage during one of his forays, I would have fully expected to pay for it. But he didn't, and on the occasions when my friends, family, or I did not catch him, he was returned when dog friendly people found him and called the number on the tag.

So, I had a 6' privacy fence; I entrusted my dog to competent, responsible adults; and every so often he still managed to get loose. On the bright side, he was trained from a very young age to be child-friendly; he was trained to not be food aggressive; he was trained to respond to "sit," "stay," and "down;" and he had a good disposition.

Guess I was lucky he didn't run into anybody with more trigger-happiness than dog-sense.

I think if you surveyed most of the dog owners on the forum, you'd find that at some point or another they've had a dog pull a Houdini. I also think if you asked them what they'd think about a pre-emptive shooting of their animals, you'd get a very negative response.

Not to pick on your grandkid, but down the road I'd be more nervous of her driving a car than I would be about most stray dogs. Statistically speaking, a teen driver is much more likely to kill me than is a dog.

 

[MLeake]

Roy Reali...

... prevention may not be in the cards.

I've seen very few cases, and read of very few cases, where dogs made a slow, obvious approach, and then attacked.

Most attacks are sudden, and often as not come from a blind side.

Rabid animals fall in a separate category; they might do anything. Healthy dogs usually either attack in one of two ways - they get scared or threatened, and immediately turn and snap; or they come at you at a run and don't slow.

Maybe you've seen some other variants, but those two are the types I've seen, and also read about in the news.

So, if you perceived the threat in time, you might be able to draw and place an accurate shot or two. Of course, if that were the case, you could have as easily drawn and employed a spray, or swung the stick that was already in your hand. (Sticks are great for 4-legged and no-legged critters)

But there are pretty good odds that if a dog were going to attack a child, it would be on that child before you'd have a real chance at "prevention."

So humor me, if you would. Which of the three options (gun, stick, spray) would you want to use if the dog were already on the child?

My bet is it would not be the gun.

 

[roy reali]

re:Mleake

From Shakespeare's Hamlet, 1602:

LORD POLONIUS
This business is well ended.
My liege, and madam, to expostulate
What majesty should be, what duty is,
Why day is day, night night, and time is time,
Were nothing but to waste night, day and time.
Therefore, since brevity is the soul of wit,And tediousness the limbs and outward flourishes,
I will be brief: your noble son is mad:
Mad call I it; for, to define true madness,
What is't but to be nothing else but mad?
But let that go.

I guess some folks think that the longer their replies the more right they are.

 

[troy_mclure]

Healthy dogs usually either attack in one of two ways -... or they come at you at a run and don't slow.

and this is a reason to be at least ready to draw, dogs are fast, and sometimes its not easy to tell a playful dash from an attack run.

 

[ZeroJunk]

We think he was hiding from us and was waiting to see a dog fight. He probably wanted to see his dog attack other dogs. When he saw that the odds were stacked against his dog, he made the right move.

LOL. Last time it was hunters going to start a gun fight with you since they didn't unload their shotguns when you approached.

 

[noelf2]

Edward and Noelf, go ahead and draw a gun every time something makes you remotely nervous, especially in a city or a suburb, and see how long you go without losing your permit, at best.

Remotely nervous?? LOL Consider that what makes one person remotely nervous makes others extremely agitated. Snakes for example. There's no justification to be afraid of them since so few can actually hurt you. But some people are frighted by them whatever their color, size, or whatever. One person might see a garter snake and want to climb a tree. Another might pick it up and say "how cute". Don't try to assert what makes you only "remotely nervous" is the standard we should all follow. Obviously, a dog approaching you quickly is first perceived by you to be a cuddly fur ball wanting attention. Not me. I'm not that trusting. I just have a different standard. I don't mind if you want to take the chance of getting bit by a dog, so you shouldn't mind if i don't want to.

I don't think I'd be in any trouble for drawing if a dog is approaching me aggressively, or if a man is approaching me aggressively. That's kinda what i got the permit for. You will never lose your permit if you draw on an aggressive dog that is not under control and/or is running free. To not be prepared as you feel is necessary for the instance, is foolish.

 

[WANT A LCR 22LR]

EDIT OOps, it was post 10 not post 1

Does anyone remember that the OP had a small child on his shoulders and another walking at his side? This alone puts the OP at a disadvantage in mobility / distribution of attention. In this situation pulling a gun would be warranted.

And no, this isn't because I like kids ( I don't ) ,it is more of a practical response.

 

[noelf2]

Does anyone remember that the OP had a small child

I think you are mistaken. The op didn't say he had a child with him. Believe that was someone else.