Why not .30-30 semi-auto?
- Thread starter skinnygun
- Start date
Jack O'Conner
New member
Several decades ago, Remington built a semi auto big game rifle named the model 8. This Browning designed rifle was chambered for the 30 Remington which is a rimless 30-30 cartridge. Eventually, Remington upgraded a few items and renamed it the model 81. This rifle was chambered for the 300 Savage cartridge bringing nearly .308 ballistics in a semi auto platform. These rifles are not common but can be found occasionally at gun auction websites.
Jack
Jack
The Remington Model 8 was introduced in about 1906 and replaced by the model 81 in 1935. Production of the 81s ended in 1950 with over 100,000 produced counting both models.
They were chambered for the Remington cartridges in .25, .30, .32, and .35 calibers. The smaller bores were essentially rimless versions of the Winchester rounds, .23-35, .30-30, and .32 Special. Remington had the .35 Rem, and Winchester had no direct counterpart for that one.
The Reminton rounds used pointed bullets, and so had a bit of a ballistic edge over the Winchester line. The 8 and 81 used box magazines and the model 8 actually came with a pair of stripper clips. Their companion pump action rifles, the models 14 and 141 had tubular magazines, and Rem came up with a unique "spiral" magazine tube which allowed the safe use of pointed bullets.
Model 81s were also chambered in .300 Savage, and its rare to find one in anything but .300Savage or .35 Rem, but some were made in .30 Rem according to the books.
Old loading manuals use the same data for the .25,.30, and .32 rounds Winchester or Remington.
The closest thing you're going to find to a semi auto .30-30 is the old Remington Model 8 in .30 Remington. you won't be able to use .30-30 ammo, but you will get the same performance in the field from the .30 Rem that you get frm the .30-30 win, perhaps just a touch better at longer ranges.
The 7.62x39 can give you NEARLY .30-30 performance, but not quite. you can get .30-30 speeds but with a lighter bullet and with the 150gr bullet you can't quite get .30-30 speed from the smaller x39 case.
They were chambered for the Remington cartridges in .25, .30, .32, and .35 calibers. The smaller bores were essentially rimless versions of the Winchester rounds, .23-35, .30-30, and .32 Special. Remington had the .35 Rem, and Winchester had no direct counterpart for that one.
The Reminton rounds used pointed bullets, and so had a bit of a ballistic edge over the Winchester line. The 8 and 81 used box magazines and the model 8 actually came with a pair of stripper clips. Their companion pump action rifles, the models 14 and 141 had tubular magazines, and Rem came up with a unique "spiral" magazine tube which allowed the safe use of pointed bullets.
Model 81s were also chambered in .300 Savage, and its rare to find one in anything but .300Savage or .35 Rem, but some were made in .30 Rem according to the books.
Old loading manuals use the same data for the .25,.30, and .32 rounds Winchester or Remington.
The closest thing you're going to find to a semi auto .30-30 is the old Remington Model 8 in .30 Remington. you won't be able to use .30-30 ammo, but you will get the same performance in the field from the .30 Rem that you get frm the .30-30 win, perhaps just a touch better at longer ranges.
The 7.62x39 can give you NEARLY .30-30 performance, but not quite. you can get .30-30 speeds but with a lighter bullet and with the 150gr bullet you can't quite get .30-30 speed from the smaller x39 case.
My first car was a 1995 Toyota Camry with stick shift. I bought it new at a bargain price. The car had been on the lot for more than a year and nobody wanted it.
People who want a Camry don't want stick shift. People who want stick shift don't want a Camry.
I guess similar thing applies here. People who like .30-30 don't care about semi auto (they like lever action). People who like semi auto don't want to have .30-30. The product don't sell. Manufacturers will do something else.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
People who want a Camry don't want stick shift. People who want stick shift don't want a Camry.
I guess similar thing applies here. People who like .30-30 don't care about semi auto (they like lever action). People who like semi auto don't want to have .30-30. The product don't sell. Manufacturers will do something else.
-TL
Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Seedy Character
New member
Fat, rimmed cartridge is not conducive to feeding.
It COULD be made, but why?
So many equivalent and better rounds are available.
.30-30 is lever action round. Just the way it is.
It COULD be made, but why?
So many equivalent and better rounds are available.
.30-30 is lever action round. Just the way it is.
I'd say .30-30 is most popular as a lever action round. But there have been/are bolt actions and single shot .30-30s. I have had a couple.
The .30-30 Win is rimmed but I wouldn't call it a fat cartridge. You can make a semi auto (or even a full auto) work just fine with a rimmed cartridge. Even fat ones. But, its easier, cheaper and simpler to use a rimless case to fit an existing action than to create a new action (or significantly modify an existing one) to use a rimmed case.
Remington created their line of rimless rounds to duplicate Winchester performance, for two reasons. ONE being ease of design and manufacture of their semi auto an pump rifles, and the other being that, at that time, Remington would not chamber a gun for a Winchester cartridge, nor would Winchester put a Remington cartridge in one of their rifles.
Both companies were fiercely competitive about that until the commercial success of the .308 Win convinced Remington that it was better to sell a Remington rifle in a Winchester caliber than to not sell a Remington rifle. And Winchester decided the same thing a few years later with the 7mm Rem mag. Today, the whole "not putting the competition's name (cartridge) in our gun" thing has faded away.
Geezerbiker
New member
One of those has been on my wish list for a long time and likely one that will remain elusive...I had a semi auto 30-30, it was called a Model 8 Remington in 30 Remington.
So many regrets about trading this one off.
Tony
Jim Watson
New member
A friend has a .30 Remington (Some of the very early ones were indeed marked ".30-30 Remington.") A watcher was all aghast that he had rounded up ammo and components and was actually shooting it; "But it is a Collector's Item."
To which he replied: "Yes, but what you may not realize is that it has been Collected."
To which he replied: "Yes, but what you may not realize is that it has been Collected."
the reason have been mostly stated, rimmed cases do not not work well in semi auto guns generally.
if you want 30-30 performance in a semi auto, you might look at the 300 hammer from wilson combat. similar to a 300 blackout, its designed duplicate 30-30 performance.
https://www.wilsoncombat.com/300-hamr/
if you want 30-30 performance in a semi auto, you might look at the 300 hammer from wilson combat. similar to a 300 blackout, its designed duplicate 30-30 performance.
https://www.wilsoncombat.com/300-hamr/
I've been hearing this my entire life since I started listening to such things, and I've come to the conclusion, that, as stated, its simply not true, and most people are just repeating something they heard from the distant past.
Not picking on any one, I used to say it too, but over the years I've been studying such things, I've come to realize that while it is not as mechanically easy to make rimmed rounds work in semi and full auto weapons, when they are correctly designed for rimmed rounds, they work just fine.
Consider all the semi and full auto weapons firing rimmed rounds that were used in WWII. The Soviet SVT 40 rifles and all their 7.62x54R machine guns, The British Bren gun and Vickers machine guns in .303 British are major examples.
On a more modern note, the Desert Eagle pistols shoot rimmed rounds and they work just fine, also, or at least the 5 that I've had worked fine, with the correct ammunition. I also had an LAR Grizzly in .44 Magnum, and that one worked fine as well.
The point here is that the rimmed round, in and of itself is not a detriment, and does not prevent a properly designed semi or full auto action from working.
I think it likely that the origin of " rimmed cases do not not work well in semi auto guns" was probably something more like "rimmed cases are not as easy to make work in semi auto guns" and over time with countless repetitions that "not as easy" changed into "doesn't work well" and has been repeated without thought by a lot of people every since.
Think about this, as well, isn't the semi auto .22LR one of the most popular and prolific firearms on the planet? The .22LR is most certainly a rimmed round. And, then, there's also all those semi auto shotguns out there, every one of which is shooting a rimmed round....
I think the most likely reason you don't see a .30-30 semi auto or any of the other older rimmed rifle rounds is a combination of the age old rivalry between gun makers and the simple fact that rimless rounds that out perform the classic rimmed ones became available about the time the buying public was getting interested in semi autos.
Do note that until the later 50s-early 60s , Winchester would not chamber their guns for a Remington cartridge, and Remington wound not make a gun in a Winchester cartridge. Even Savage wouldn't put Winchester's name on their guns. Savage marked their .30-30s as ".30-30" and not .30 WCF or ,30-30 Win.
Remington "broke" the pattern when they decided not making .308 Win was costing them money, and Winchester held out until the popularity of the 7mm Rem Mag basically forced them to chamber it.
Its often talked about, the Remington line of rimless rounds created as direct competition for the Winchester rimmed rounds in .25..30, and .32 cals, and I've often heard it said Remington did that because it was "too difficult" to put a rimmed round in their model 8 semi auto, and I suppose that's possible, but I think its more likely that they didn't even consider trying that. They created their own line of rimless rounds to match the performance of the Winchester ones, so they didn't have to chamber their rival's cartridges in their rifles.
And I think that the "too difficult" is just a made up thing, especially when you look at the contemporary Remington pumps and the engineering that went into creating a tubular magazine that could safely manage spitzer bullets. I think that level of engineering talent could have created a semi auto for rimmed rounds, had they been interested in doing that. They weren't...
Jim Watson
New member
Early days, the .30 Remington was known as the .30-30 Remington and so listed in Remington advertising. The designation was so well known that they could not pass it up. Doesn't say "Winchester" or "WCF" any more than a Marlin does, though.
See old ad at
http://thegreatmodel8.remingtonsociety.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/1ddmod8.jpg
Note that the plug is for .35 Remington.
While the .25, .30-30, and .32 Remingtons were rimless versions of the WCFs, the .35 was apparently all new. It is as close as they could get to .35 WCF and fit in the Model 8; 200 gr at 2250 fps vs 250 gr at 2200 fps for the Winchester.
The model was made by FN for European sales, too. I have only seen it mentioned in "9mm", surely .35 Remington.
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mikejonestkd
New member
I have been watching this tread for a while, silently waiting for someone to mention the Remington model 8 in 30 Remington.....So, thank you for finally bringing it up!!
I picked up one this summer and its a hoot of a rifle. Ballistics are identical to the 30-30 Winchester, in fact all of my brass is converted 30-30 win brass.
I picked up one this summer and its a hoot of a rifle. Ballistics are identical to the 30-30 Winchester, in fact all of my brass is converted 30-30 win brass.
Jim Watson
New member
A friend has one with a Stith scope mount, a neat period outfit.
mikejonestkd
New member
Jim, here's a pic of mine, with a Williams peep sight. I can get 4" 100 yard groups with it, which is more than minute of deer at that range.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/185306272@N05/51692066747/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/185306272@N05/51692066747/in/dateposted-public/
One thing you could just about count on, back in the 60s and early 70s when I was haunting the small gunshops in the northeast, you could nearly always find a Remington model 8 or 81 in the used rifle rack. And they often stayed there a long time.
Not because they weren't good guns, or because their cartridges weren't good (in .300Savage and .35 Rem they were great) but because of the combination of factors including the rifle buying public in those days.
Compared to other deer rifles, the Reminton semi autos were expensive, complicated, and heavy. Working class seasonal deer hunters often passed them by, because they didn't have much money, and a Winchester, Marlin, Savage or even the Remington pump would do the job equally well and be cheaper and lighter to carry.
And carry mattered more then than it does today. Few people who didn't live through those times realize that very few people had slings on their rifles. Though they are a a standard and expected feature today, back then, sling swivels were not a common factory item. And many people never added them or had a gunsmith install them, so the rifle was always in one's hands, when not set on the ground.
Well heeled hunters seldom chose the Reminton semi auto, though they could afford it, they often were interested in other guns without the semi's limitations. (bolt actions, primarily).
Remington's semis sold well enough stay in production and even be reintroduced back into production after the suspension of civilian rifle production during the WWII years, for a few years until superceeded by the improved design of the Rem 740 series semis.
Another interesting thing relating to why there are no semi auto .30-30s, is perhaps, Winchester itself. Unlike Remington who built a semi auto for full size full power "deer rifle" rounds from the early years of the 20th century, Winchester's semi auto designs were blow back designs (the 1905, 07 and 09/1910) which used lower powered rounds such as the .351 WSL and .401 WSL (Winchester Self Loading).
Other than a few prototypes intended to compete against the Garand, Winchester didn't do a locking action full power rifle cartridge semi auto until the Model 100 about 1961. Apparently because they just weren't interested in that segment of the market. During the same years, when Winchester concentrated on their lever guns and the bolt action model 54 and then Model 70, Remington produced semis, pumps and bolt actions in a wide range of calibers and types. (and none of them in Winchester cartridges).
The .30-30 became America's deer gun, because of its performance when it came out, compared to other available rounds, AND because of the relatively light and very handy lever actions that most people chose. The available semi auto designs could have been made in .30-30 but doing that offered no advantages to the hunting public and several drawbacks.
And as time went on, and newer better performing rounds became available some of those got put into semi autos, further increasing the "pointlessness" of a semi auto .30-30 Winchester.
Not because they weren't good guns, or because their cartridges weren't good (in .300Savage and .35 Rem they were great) but because of the combination of factors including the rifle buying public in those days.
Compared to other deer rifles, the Reminton semi autos were expensive, complicated, and heavy. Working class seasonal deer hunters often passed them by, because they didn't have much money, and a Winchester, Marlin, Savage or even the Remington pump would do the job equally well and be cheaper and lighter to carry.
And carry mattered more then than it does today. Few people who didn't live through those times realize that very few people had slings on their rifles. Though they are a a standard and expected feature today, back then, sling swivels were not a common factory item. And many people never added them or had a gunsmith install them, so the rifle was always in one's hands, when not set on the ground.
Well heeled hunters seldom chose the Reminton semi auto, though they could afford it, they often were interested in other guns without the semi's limitations. (bolt actions, primarily).
Remington's semis sold well enough stay in production and even be reintroduced back into production after the suspension of civilian rifle production during the WWII years, for a few years until superceeded by the improved design of the Rem 740 series semis.
Another interesting thing relating to why there are no semi auto .30-30s, is perhaps, Winchester itself. Unlike Remington who built a semi auto for full size full power "deer rifle" rounds from the early years of the 20th century, Winchester's semi auto designs were blow back designs (the 1905, 07 and 09/1910) which used lower powered rounds such as the .351 WSL and .401 WSL (Winchester Self Loading).
Other than a few prototypes intended to compete against the Garand, Winchester didn't do a locking action full power rifle cartridge semi auto until the Model 100 about 1961. Apparently because they just weren't interested in that segment of the market. During the same years, when Winchester concentrated on their lever guns and the bolt action model 54 and then Model 70, Remington produced semis, pumps and bolt actions in a wide range of calibers and types. (and none of them in Winchester cartridges).
The .30-30 became America's deer gun, because of its performance when it came out, compared to other available rounds, AND because of the relatively light and very handy lever actions that most people chose. The available semi auto designs could have been made in .30-30 but doing that offered no advantages to the hunting public and several drawbacks.
And as time went on, and newer better performing rounds became available some of those got put into semi autos, further increasing the "pointlessness" of a semi auto .30-30 Winchester.
Its no joke, but I think you would be even worse off if you had bought the .351SL.
The guns (and the ammo) have been obsolete and out of production for over a half century. Its possible the cowboy action shooting enthusiasm led to a reintroduction of the .351, in small amounts, I don't know. As a mainstream factory produced round its been gone a long time.
.45 Colt has been in constant production since 1873. (with the exception of the WWII war years) Its popularity has risen, fallen and risen again but its always stayed in production and there are NEW guns being made in .45 Colt every day.
Not so the .351SL . Everything is scarce and expensive these days. Obsolete and niche rounds even more than popular ones.
The guns (and the ammo) have been obsolete and out of production for over a half century. Its possible the cowboy action shooting enthusiasm led to a reintroduction of the .351, in small amounts, I don't know. As a mainstream factory produced round its been gone a long time.
.45 Colt has been in constant production since 1873. (with the exception of the WWII war years) Its popularity has risen, fallen and risen again but its always stayed in production and there are NEW guns being made in .45 Colt every day.
Not so the .351SL . Everything is scarce and expensive these days. Obsolete and niche rounds even more than popular ones.
mikejonestkd
New member
I agree completely, its a long and lonely path to go down when attempting to load for an obsolete cartridge. I got my Rem model 8 strictly as a wall hanger because ammo was almost non existent. I lucked into a few boxes of loaded ammo, and learned to turn down 30-30 win just to be able to feed my .30 Remington rifle.
I'd take a 45 colt in heartbeat over a .351SL.