why an ar-15? pls explain the allur

[tirod]

It's considered arguable by some, but there is a gas piston in the AR. The real problem is that a lot of civilian shooters don't go out and low crawl their op rod guns thru muck and fire them.

Any exposed bolt gun with operating rod outside the receiver is more prone to stoppage than the internally protected mechanisms designed since the 1940's. It's precisely the reason those new designs came into being - to reduce stoppages caused by exposed operating parts.

In fact, the Garand's introduction was hushed up for National Security reasons because the exposed operating handle to bolt junction lacked a roller bearing, and they jammed - which resulted in the death of the operator. It was a major controversy in command circles, but the climate of the times was to keep thinks like that classified. Don't forget - we even lost a troop ship with thousands on it, and it was punishable by courtmartial to speak of it into the '90s.

So, the jammomatic M16 really isn't all that new a problem, it happened to get more exposure - but it didn't necessarily result in more dead soldiers. It's never been compared, because the Garand's fielding was hushed up quite thoroughly.

Conspiracy theory? Nope, don't forget either that the reporter who leaked the news the Germans surrendered was detained and fired from his job - even tho it was widely reported in the German media. US Command wanted a 24 hour lid on it for their own reasons.

Basing an assumption about the reliability of certain types of weapons on popular history isn't understanding what really happened.

 

[Sinlessorrow]

Clearly Fext doesnt know much about the AR-15 system. there is no rifle currently being made that I would rather have in a wet and sandy environment than the M4A1. keep it lubed and it will perform just as good as any current Op rod system on the market.

the fact that Fext says it doesnt have a piston kinda shows it. Fext the AR-15 has a piston in it, its inline with the system.

see the bolt tail is the piston with the gas rings, the bolt carrier is the chamber. when you fire a round the gases push it down the bore, when the bullet passes the gas port a small portion of gas is siphoned off and sent down the gas tube, when it gets to the end of the gas tube it is sent into the carrier key which in turn leads it into the bolt carrier behind the bolt gas rings.

at this point the gas expand moving the bolt carrier back, while the BC is traveling backwards the cam pin follows the track and starts unlocking the bolt. once fully unlocked the gas inside the chamber is expelled out of the exhaust holes in the carrier, thus cycling the action.

so yes the AR-15 is a piston gun.

I wouldnt call the M16 a jammomatic.

it certainly had a horrible introduction though. despite what Stoner said the Army insisted on not chroming the chamber or bore, they insisted it was a self cleaning rifle that did not need lubrication or cleaning, they insisted on using crummy 7.62 ball powder instead of the extruded IMR powder Stoner called for.

all this combined led to a ****ty introduction of a rifle.

Hell even to this day some higher ups in the military insist on a white glove clean(does more harm than good) and using dry lubes to keep dust from sticking(yeah whoever thought of this is an idiot)

if you clean your rifle(takes 15 minutes for a good clean, 2 for a combat clean) and keep it lubed, and I mean with a good wet lube like SLIP2000 and use good mags your M4 will never let you down.

IF anyone doubts the M4's effectiveness look up the battle reports for COP Keating, the battle lasted 10+hrs, there is 1 documented report of a soldier expending 40 magazines alone in his M4, there is also no reported stoppages of any rifles that day(besides one M2 that took a direct RPG).

that alone shows just how effective the M4 is.

as to the 5.56 its a great round, the issue is M855. M855 was designed to penetrate soviet helmets and to be used in LMG's when tossed into a carbine its a crap round.

thankfully we have rounds like the MK318, MK262, brown tip optimized. those rounds are nasty and with good shot placement will quickly dispatch enemies.

lets also not forget alot of the guys we face overseas are hyped up on morphine and adrenaline giving them PCP like strength and the ability to endure far more than your average human can.

If you hunt you can take down pretty much any game using the 5.56 with the right bullet. for hunting use the Barnes 70gr TSX(1/7 twist only) or the black hills custom Barnes 50GR TSX. those suckers expand out to .50 cal

 

[UtopiaTexasG19]

"Sure I have precision rifles, as well as some nice .22's to shoot tomatoes off the fence post with."

No wonder this sport has become so expensive. Have you looked at the price of tomatoes these days?

 

[baddarryl]

For me it is simply the feel and the fact that if I need to put 10 rounds on a pie plate in a hurry I can do it every time. Seems like it would be very useful when the SHTF!

 

[Achilles11B]

The AR can make for a great go-fast gun in SBR form or a great long-distance shooter. But the best thing is that a person can go between those two configurations and more by simply pulling two pins and swapping uppers.

 

[BIG P]

THE AR is a great rifle,Like it or not.I can do anything a bolt gun can do most times faster & more hits.Ive filled my freezer a bunch of times with Deer,hogs with it . feed My family,It Protects our home & its fun & easy to shoot.


Its AMERICAN as apple pie or base ball. My AR didnt cost as much as your sks. I own both AR & AK,IMO The AR wins hands down.

If thats not allur enough One may wonder why not,its not a million bucks

 

[btmj]

we even lost a troop ship with thousands on it, and it was punishable by courtmartial to speak of it into the '90s.

Tirod: are you refering to the ship "Rhona" ?

 

[HKFan9]

"Sure I have precision rifles, as well as some nice .22's to shoot tomatoes off the fence post with."

No wonder this sport has become so expensive. Have you looked at the price of tomatoes these days?

If you grow your own, as well as other fruits and veggies, your grocery cost goes way down... and you can spend the saved money on ammo like I do! lol

Also when bugs and critters get to them before you do, you have baskets full of reactive targets.

 

[armoredman]

I am the only person, I think, who doesn't like AR-15/M-16 based rifles. I qualified with an M-16A1 in 1984, and hated it; that "SPROINNNNG!" in my ear about drove me nuts! When I reported aboard ship in 1987, I was quite happy to see the armory had M-14s, great rifles. They were still on board when I left years later, though I heard the Navy finally pulled them out, along with the 1911s we had.

I see lots and lots of people using AR-15s, and I think, from my outsider viewpoint, that it might be two things together, the first being patriotism, both aware and unaware. All the good guys in military TV/movies have an M-16/M-4 variant built, and it's very natural to identify with "the good guys". It's the same reason that old joke went around about AR/AK/Mosin, that AK shooters had copies of Red Dawn, (Wolverines!), and Mosin shooters had Enemy At The Gates. AR-15 shooters can pick any number of modern war movies and find good guys with a Stoner design based rifle.
The other reason has already been said - they are completely customizable. I think we would run out of bandwidth trying to list all the suppliers/manufacturers of custom, semi custom, or GI spare/replacement/upgrade parts and accessories. The owner of an AR reciever with all goodies inside can pick and choose a thousand different setups without blinking.
Having said all that...I still don't like 'em, nothing more than personal fit and feel, nothing else, no trashing of the gun, caliber, features, nada - I just don't like 'em.
If you like the AR style rifle, go for it, you will have a blast with it.

 

[scottd913]

texasg19.........shooting tomatos off a fence post....whats wrong with you lol.
send them to me and ill trade you empty beer cans or targets even!

 

[Sinlessorrow]

Armored, do ou know why you hear that sproing?

The spring is actually so quiet your not actually hearing it over the sound of the bullet.

What happens is because you rest your head on the stock, when the spring vibrates in the tune those vibrations travel to your bones and are then turned into a noise by our brain.

Thats why even with earpro on you hear it over everythin else, even when the earpro should completely get rid of the sound.

The good thin about the sproing is you can learn how your rifle is performing based off of it.

 

[armoredman]

That may be, but I find it extremely distracting, same as I hated the cars in the '80s that talked to me, too.
Don't get me wrong, the rifle wouldn't have survived this long if it didn't have a lot going for it, but it's just not for me.

 

[Cheapshooter]

why an ar-15? pls explain the allur

Because I can!!! Questioning it's usefulness is just the thing the anti's count on to get gun platforms banned. One, by one, by one, until they get everything!

 

[chadio]

- light recoil
- cheap ammo
- versatility / ability to configure / customize for your purpose

ymmv

 

[Ignition Override]

I've fired only a very limited number of rds. in a friend's AR-15. This Colt is all-original, bought in about '89 and has the bayo lug.
The condition is excellent (seldom used).
How do most shooters describe the trigger's feel?

Today it felt just a bit tight, and my guns are Enfield #4s, #5s, the SKS (fairly tight, but a long, smooth pull), FR8s (Spanish 8mm action) plus a nice S. Grade Garand.

 

[Schwerms]

Pat Rodgers Said it Best...

In his "Filthy 14" article, Pat Rodgers of EAG Tactical says the following of the platform:

"THE M16 WAS FIRST PROMOTED AS A GUN THAT NEEDED NO MAINTENANCE.
While that statement proved false, a number of factors, including propellant powder and a lack of cleaning supplies and training, led to failures on the battlefield that are still being ballyhooed by muckrakers and the unknowing. They ignore the fact that the M16 is the most accurate and efficient rifle ever used by the military.

However, it is no more a perfect weapon system than the Glock, 1911, M1 rifle or any other rifle, airframe, ship or person."

-Pat Rodgers, from an article first featured in S.W.A.T. Magazine ("Filthy 14", OCT 2010, page 55)

That's right- The most accurate and efficiecient rifle ever used in military service. The platform isn't perfect, but damn it can do its job well (pending quality parts and just a little "give a crap" maintenance). Mr. Rodgers (hehe...) goes on in the article to dispel many myths about the platform. Anyone interested in (or interested in knocking the platform) should definitely give it a read. To quote Pat's article once more, "Stoner knew what he was doing."

 

[iMagUdspEllr]

I'm sure anyone on this forum could go on and on about why an AR over another rifle. But, I'll just address some of things you mentioned.

Well he didn't have to build a $2k AR. I'm sure he did because he wanted the parts that he wanted in it. You can easily get a decent (recognize decent is a relative term, it might be inferior for some or way too much for others) AR for $1k.

As far as "tacking out" a rifle, a rifle not intended to fulfill a certain purpose will still not be ideal for that purpose, whether you "tack it out" or not (three-gun with a bolt-action?). But, it seems you aren't worried about that.

You are focusing on cost. And, you're right, a cheap .22lr single-shot rifle is good enough for anybody. If you want to kill something bigger than a squirrel, then pick a bigger caliber. Bolt actions will be more accurate and come in more powerful calibers than most reasonably priced semi-autos.

If you really need the semi-auto capability then it comes to comparing specific rifles. Ammo actually never becomes a player in this comparison (between the AR, SKS, and AK platforms that you mentioned), because you can get ARs chambered for 7.62x39.

To sum up, it seems like you are basically saying, "An AK will do anything an AR will do, for cheap." You are correct. But, the AK obviously doesn't have the same features as an AR and those features will either matter to you or not. And, that is what makes the world of difference for people.

 

[fext]

Sinlessorrow, I believe I have a fair enough understanding how AR15 works, and yet again: M4 handles nice and it's a sweet gun to shoot. But as I said, there is a reason why I would really want another weapon for a combat situation (like, say, M14) - with all due respect to your own choice.

Schwerms:

They ignore the fact that the M16 is the most accurate and efficient rifle ever used by the military.

I'm afraid this is quite an emotional overstatement. There are standard issued assault rifles which are at least as accurate as standard issued M16 / M4, if not better. And concerning efficiency, well how do you define efficiency? My own (and yet again very personal) point of view is that it's primarily the round what defines the efficiency of a weapon.
For the most part at least. Then there is the barrel length which has an influence on the round speed, and finally, the rifle itself contributes with it's reliability.

 

[Crow Hunter]

I would really want another weapon for a combat situation (like, say, M14) - with all due respect to your own choice.

Why would you make this choice? Why do you feel the M14 is superior?

There are standard issued assault rifles which are at least as accurate as standard issued M16 / M4, if not better.

Care to name them? Which ones and why?

And concerning efficiency, well how do you define efficiency? My own (and yet again very personal) point of view is that it's primarily the round what defines the efficiency of a weapon.

Efficiency is the ability to accomplish a function with a minimum expenditure of time/effort.

-Rock and lock magazine changes are less efficient than vertical insertion. Particularly blind/deep insertions like the M14.
-Weapons with bolt releases are more efficient than cycling a charging handle.
-Safeties under the thumb are more efficient than safeties in other locations.
-Standard configuration rifles are more efficient in manipulations than bullpups.
-Bullpups are more efficient in utilization of space than non-bullpup.

Efficiency of design is very important. Every second or portion of a second of time lost in any operation, is multiplied over and across every manipulation and every soldier on a battlefield. It literally can add up to hours of nothing happening.

From the standpoint of an individual, try going through manipulations on the different rifle types while in field positions. Swap a magazine while hugging the ground behind low cover without sticking part of your body above that cover. This will compound the inefficiency.

There are very few guns that are or have been general issue that have the economy of motion and efficiency of the M16 FOW for the 0-300 yard fight. There are "prototypes" out there that have improvments, but none that have every been issued in quantity nor have they been truly combat tested. (The SCAR comes the closest, but it has almost identical controls to the M16 FOW, although it's safety is too dang short. )

Everything is a compromise, as a general issue combat arm, there isn't really anything out there that is as efficient of a compromise as the M16 FOW at the current time.

I encourage you to try it yourself. Do a direct comparison of the M-14 and the AR and see which you do better with. Get 7 or 8 "head sized" targets and engage them under a timer with your rifles from "combat" field positions. Go out with your buddies and wager some money or bragging rights against them. Try it with both or any other rifle. You may be surprised at what results to have.

 

[fext]

Why would you make this choice?

Just check the video.

Care to name them? Which ones and why?

Sig 550, G36, FN SCAR . Please note - for my part, this is NOT AK. vs AR flame.

Efficiency is the ability to accomplish a function with a minimum expenditure of time/effort.

Fair enough. Your M4 wins easily over M14 in the hit the head sized target situation you describe, but let's see if it's the same in a COM situation at some 200+ meters and on live targets.

Look I really do not want to say that my preferences are a rule valid for anyone, I just wanted to say what I do like about AR15 platform and what I do not like.