Thoughts on "survival rifles"
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simonrichter
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I think for both "survival" scenarios, ammo is a key issue.
For "lost in the woods" it needs to be light enough to carry a reasonable amount w/o adding too much weight, as has already been said in some posts above...
...while for the "civilization is (temporarily, hopefully) down" scenario you will most of all need something you actually have a chance to resupply in case the situation persists for a longer period of time.
All this considered, I have limited my calibers to .22lr, 9mm and .223.
For "lost in the woods" it needs to be light enough to carry a reasonable amount w/o adding too much weight, as has already been said in some posts above...
...while for the "civilization is (temporarily, hopefully) down" scenario you will most of all need something you actually have a chance to resupply in case the situation persists for a longer period of time.
I beg to differ. Of course you will not be able to just walk in somewhere and buy it, but there WILL be ways of trading and exchanging other goods for ammo. Thus, the more common your caliber, the more likely you'll be able to find some. Stockpiling can't hurt, though...
All this considered, I have limited my calibers to .22lr, 9mm and .223.
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Boomer58cal
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Temporary can be a very relative term. FEMA estimates 4+ years to restore power to our country's major population centers if we were hit by a Carrington level Solar event. A Carrington level event is basically the complete destruction of all unshielded electrical systems on the continent and FEMA's 4+ year estimate does not include the power grids in rural areas. That could take up to a decade.
There is a 12% chance a decade of the earth suffering a Carrington level event. The last one was in 1859. Our continents Telegraph Network literally burst into flames leaving several telegraph office in ashes and their operators in the hospital.
Imagine if half the country spontaneously combusted.
Every up to his eyeballs in it prepper I've talked to has had one thing in common... they all stock piles of 22 LR. Unfortunately with most stores having their shelves empty of .22 ammo these days, if such a disaster was to happen today it may be hard to replenish your stock.
Boomer
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armoredman
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From the only source I could look up,
Cited source material,
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=D01110A86A743960CAC4E61DC9407CA2.f04t03
Possible, but highly unlikely. On the other hand, it WOULD be "interesting" to see how the 'wired' generation can live without smart phones, iPods, iPads, etc...think there was a television series about that recently.
I agree, emergencies tend to be shorter lived than Hollywood would like you to believe, unless the Chinese really do invade. Start the focus on 72 hours and move up, and like others here, I tend to focus firearm wise on defense, not offense - I'm not out to win WWIII.
Found here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859#cite_note-mccracken-13
Cited source material,
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ionid=D01110A86A743960CAC4E61DC9407CA2.f04t03
Possible, but highly unlikely. On the other hand, it WOULD be "interesting" to see how the 'wired' generation can live without smart phones, iPods, iPads, etc...think there was a television series about that recently.
I agree, emergencies tend to be shorter lived than Hollywood would like you to believe, unless the Chinese really do invade. Start the focus on 72 hours and move up, and like others here, I tend to focus firearm wise on defense, not offense - I'm not out to win WWIII.
Differ all you like, as we are talking about two different situations. When you have access to others, and they to you, you aren't in the same kind of situation as being lost in the woods, or cut off from the outside world.
Also being able to trade "goods for ammo" requires a couple of things, first being the folks with the ammo are willing to trade, and second, that you have something that they want more than the ammo.
Boomer58cal
New member
"Possible, but highly unlikely."
^ Famous last words. ^
It's not a question of what the odds are that you will experience a disaster, Natural or otherwise in your lifetime. This is almost a certainty and the only unknown is the magnitude of that event. It could be a small storm, a tornado, hurricane, earthquake, tsunami, or a solar flare that knocks the entire Earth into the Stone Age. You just never know.
I'd rather be the idiot that was prepared for something that never came, then the idiot that wasn't prepared for anything at all.
Boomer
I know of a guy who was a prepper, had enough food, water, clothes and other "self-sufficiency" stuff to last 15+ years autonomously. He went to Disney World on Vacation and his house burned down, with over $100K of prepper stuff inside. He could not afford to rebuild, now lives in an apartment with a shotgun and a 55 gallon water barrel.
Moral of the story had to be "don't put all your eggs in one basket."
While I enjoy the mental gymnastics of the discussion, some versatility, adaptability and multiple options are always better than just "Plan A."
Moral of the story had to be "don't put all your eggs in one basket."
While I enjoy the mental gymnastics of the discussion, some versatility, adaptability and multiple options are always better than just "Plan A."
Boomer58cal
New member
The moral of the story is He should have spent half that hundred grand on a bunker and his bunker would still have 50 grand worth of stuff in it.
Boomer
Boomer
I don't think there is any such thing as a "survival rifle" any more than I think there are "Evil Guns”, Righteous Guns", "Communist Guns" or "Gangster Guns"
There are guns used by survivors of bad situations. But the gun is very much the smallest part of the equation. The person is the real part that matters.
“Survival” is too broad a term. What does it mean? It means staying alive. However it doesn’t mean any specific dangerous situation.
If you survive the impact of a plane crash in on top of the Andes you will need to do a lot of things different than if you survive a plane crash in North Korea.
In these situations you need help from friends far more than you need any gun.
To survive in the Rocky Mountains with a broken foot for 2 weeks until you are found, you’d want a different kind of rifle than you would if you were trapped in LA California for 2 weeks during a total civil melt down, or along the Arizona border during an invasion by 100 Illegal aliens who want to take your home your food and your life.
To my way of thinking there are really only 2 kinds of applications for firearms in “survival situations”
#1 is hunting ( but hunting what?)
#2 is fighting. ( but fighting who or what?)
It’s an interesting subject to compare the attributes of different arms which may cover the bases of both #1 and #2.
But I think we should leave the title “survival gun” behind. It’s not really a valid moniker.
There are guns used by survivors of bad situations. But the gun is very much the smallest part of the equation. The person is the real part that matters.
“Survival” is too broad a term. What does it mean? It means staying alive. However it doesn’t mean any specific dangerous situation.
If you survive the impact of a plane crash in on top of the Andes you will need to do a lot of things different than if you survive a plane crash in North Korea.
In these situations you need help from friends far more than you need any gun.
To survive in the Rocky Mountains with a broken foot for 2 weeks until you are found, you’d want a different kind of rifle than you would if you were trapped in LA California for 2 weeks during a total civil melt down, or along the Arizona border during an invasion by 100 Illegal aliens who want to take your home your food and your life.
To my way of thinking there are really only 2 kinds of applications for firearms in “survival situations”
#1 is hunting ( but hunting what?)
#2 is fighting. ( but fighting who or what?)
It’s an interesting subject to compare the attributes of different arms which may cover the bases of both #1 and #2.
But I think we should leave the title “survival gun” behind. It’s not really a valid moniker.
semi_problomatic
New member
I disagree wyosmith. Only because "survival rifle" isn't the same as a "bunker down at home rifle".
What I mean is, if you have the luxury of being at home, you have whatever rifles you have and probably a bunch of them with hopefully lots of ammo.
A "survival rifle" is for when you're not at home, bunkered down, with your armory and ammo shack near you. So small, light weight, light ammo, easy to store...etc is a plus. Sure, your needs could change; but something you have on you that will just barely work is always better than that perfect gun sitting at home.
A survival rifle does no good if it's in your closet. I keep either an AR with 5 mags or a 12 gauge pardner protector in my trunk and carry a 9mm. The 9mm is just so I can make it to my car. I'd rather have a su-16 folded up in my truck; but I don't own one, so I have to deal with an AR being in the way when I need to use my trunk.
But any rifle, no matter what it does or looks like, is just a neat rifle to look at, unless you have it when you need it.
What I mean is, if you have the luxury of being at home, you have whatever rifles you have and probably a bunch of them with hopefully lots of ammo.
A "survival rifle" is for when you're not at home, bunkered down, with your armory and ammo shack near you. So small, light weight, light ammo, easy to store...etc is a plus. Sure, your needs could change; but something you have on you that will just barely work is always better than that perfect gun sitting at home.
A survival rifle does no good if it's in your closet. I keep either an AR with 5 mags or a 12 gauge pardner protector in my trunk and carry a 9mm. The 9mm is just so I can make it to my car. I'd rather have a su-16 folded up in my truck; but I don't own one, so I have to deal with an AR being in the way when I need to use my trunk.
But any rifle, no matter what it does or looks like, is just a neat rifle to look at, unless you have it when you need it.
Boomer58cal
New member
Springfield made their M6 Survival rifles in .22 LR/.410, 45 Colt/.410 and 22 Hornet/.410. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/M6_Aircrew_Survival_Weapon
My dad had the one in 22 Hornet when I was a kid. I wish I still had it now.
Boomer
Boomer58cal
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I have savage C24 .22LR/20ga. Its a great little backpacking/fun gun. It wouldn't be a bad choice if you're going to spend a little time in the woods. I wish I had one in 22 Hornet, .223 or something similar.
I had one in 30-30/12 ga for a while, but I sold it for twice what I paid for it.
Boomer
I had one in 30-30/12 ga for a while, but I sold it for twice what I paid for it.
Boomer
edward hogan
New member
Mel Tappan wrote the definitive work, Survival Guns, in 1975. His concept of the Working and Defensive classes still holds very true. The gist of it is: Defensive weapons are made to handle sustained firing with fast reloading and field-expedient repairs. If you have to defend your life against an armed aggressor, much easier to do so with defensive designed weapon. Can always hunt with an AR-15 or AR-10, but if you have to fight for your life with a hunting weapon, you may be at a grave disadvantage...
Pretty much it, in a nutshell.
If you handload, and live where dangerous bear are not a concern, an AR-15 rifle with variety of ammunition, or even just heavy match ammunition will serve. Notice, I'm talking RIFLES, not M4gery with 14" barrel and short gas system. 20" 1:7 twist rifle, maybe a heavy or government barrel and a free floated handguard with a good scope or A2 irons for extra durability.
An AR-10 full-length rifle if you live in brown bear or grizzly country. The .308win with a variety of bullets will handle anything.
If you handload, you might consider learning to cast bullets. A variety of cast designs gives you a wide range of mild rounds that can be single-loaded; or cast with wheelweight alloy and spitzer design and see if your rifle will feed from the mag reliably. Might take some work, but some guys do shoot 180gr sp cast from their M1a and AR-10 by magazine feed.
Lots of advantages to the AR-15 and .223. Lots of flexibilities to these AR pattern rifles with quick change upper receivers.
Team up with a 1911 type pistol and a .22 conversion unit and you have a very versatile package. Lots of super accurate and reliable AR-15s out there. Hard to beat the 15 for minimal recoil, accuracy, and wide bullet weight range.
Pretty much it, in a nutshell.
If you handload, and live where dangerous bear are not a concern, an AR-15 rifle with variety of ammunition, or even just heavy match ammunition will serve. Notice, I'm talking RIFLES, not M4gery with 14" barrel and short gas system. 20" 1:7 twist rifle, maybe a heavy or government barrel and a free floated handguard with a good scope or A2 irons for extra durability.
An AR-10 full-length rifle if you live in brown bear or grizzly country. The .308win with a variety of bullets will handle anything.
If you handload, you might consider learning to cast bullets. A variety of cast designs gives you a wide range of mild rounds that can be single-loaded; or cast with wheelweight alloy and spitzer design and see if your rifle will feed from the mag reliably. Might take some work, but some guys do shoot 180gr sp cast from their M1a and AR-10 by magazine feed.
Lots of advantages to the AR-15 and .223. Lots of flexibilities to these AR pattern rifles with quick change upper receivers.
Team up with a 1911 type pistol and a .22 conversion unit and you have a very versatile package. Lots of super accurate and reliable AR-15s out there. Hard to beat the 15 for minimal recoil, accuracy, and wide bullet weight range.
johnwilliamson062
Moderator
It is always great to have LOTS of ammunition in the magazine, but if you have a simple reliable design and adopt tactics which exploit its strength any firearm is pretty effective.
COntender with 22lr, 12ga, and your choice of big bore pistol or light rifle cartridge. Probably 45 colt or 30-30 imp, 0r 223 imp. Lots of options for that last one.
COntender with 22lr, 12ga, and your choice of big bore pistol or light rifle cartridge. Probably 45 colt or 30-30 imp, 0r 223 imp. Lots of options for that last one.
I agree. I always liked the term "emergency gun" better than survival rifle.
Mel Tappan was mentioned just a few post back. I have one of his articles in an old Guns & Ammo annual and he had some excellent ideas on firearms and getting ready for the end of life as we know it. He bought 70 acres in california and had livestock and a couple of ponds IIRC. Just a couple of years after that he died of a heart attack. I seem to remember he was only about 48 years old. Too bad.
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armoredman
New member
Cast wheel weight bullets in a gas gun? Ever had to clean leading from a gas port? I have - bad juju, especially in the "field". If you shoot cast from a gas operated design, use a harder alloy like #2 or slightly harder - I have had good luck with such in my vz-58, where with wheel weight "garbage lead" it would show lead splatter in the gas port and on the piston face itself. With that direct impingement of the AR-15...that could get ugly fast. Not saying people don't shoot cast out of the Ar-15, as evidenced on castbullets.gunloads.com, but it's a delicate process to get the load right. For "bad times" ammo, better use high quality bullets and load them now.
I doubt anyone will haul a bunch of upper reciever combos with then in an emergency situation, but if hunkered down in place, I could see the advantage. With the slight weight difference being left aside, might be better to simply have a complete rifle in that other caliber instead of just an upper? Serious question, not snarking.
I doubt anyone will haul a bunch of upper reciever combos with then in an emergency situation, but if hunkered down in place, I could see the advantage. With the slight weight difference being left aside, might be better to simply have a complete rifle in that other caliber instead of just an upper? Serious question, not snarking.
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