231 and HP-38 are the exact same powder, just with different names.
The squibb that won't come out
- Thread starter HighValleyRanch
- Start date
231 and HP-38 are the exact same powder, just with different names.
Clearly, we've heard different things. Reducing the starting load 10%. just to be on the cautious side of safe was the old rule. Differences in guns and components COULD result in a gun/load combination that was "book safe" but gave high pressure signs. There is a low end to the bell curve, and the only way to be sure things were safe, and that your gun and ammo combination wasn't one of the rare ones was to BEGIN testing with a reduced starting load.
A couple rounds of that, and if all was well, then one moved up to the starting load listed and worked up from there.
Taking the MAX load, reducing it 10% and starting there might be what some advocate today, but it certainly wasn't back when I learned reloading.
Take a look in the books, look at several cartridges, rifle and pistol, with most loads, most powders, taking 10% off the max load puts you well above the listed starting load. Lots of times it puts you half way between starting load and max load. I don't consider that a prudent place to begin.
FrankenMauser
New member
Epic win, HighValleyRanch.
Nice job.
I suspect it will still shoot just fine, and hope to see verification of such.
Nice job.
I suspect it will still shoot just fine, and hope to see verification of such.
Possible I suppose, but seems unlikely it was lack of crimp.
IF, by any chance you saved out the case the squib fired from, you might check it for a neck crack or any thing else out of the ordinary.
A fast powder, light load .38 Special should not squib due to lack of crimp. It should fire normally with NO crimp at all. PROVIDED the case has the normal neck tension grip on the bullet.
A full charge of a difficult to ignite powder (such as W296) needs a solid crimp (along with proper neck tension) for good ignition, but a small charge of a fast powder simply doesn't.
The only other thing I can think of is that perhaps your scale was off. Did you test it with a check weight before you loaded those two rounds? DO you still have the second round? IF so, you could pull the bullet and check the powder on a different scale or on your scale after calibration.
OR if you're gutsy enough, you could fire it and see if it does the same thing? I wouldn't, but I'm not that gutsy...
Is there any possibility you misread your scale?? 0.5 read as 5.0 perhaps?? that would explain a squib easily.
We crimp even light .38 Special loads a bit, but its not for ignition, its to prevent bullets from being pulled by the recoil of revolvers.
Giving the round a bit of a crimp ensures it will work properly in all revolvers, particularly the light ones.
I've tested this, there are standard .38 loads that work fine uncrimped in heavy revolvers, but the bullets get pulled a bit in recoil in very light revolvers. So, I doubt it was the crimp on your load that created the squib. IF you were loading W296 I could buy that but not using HP-38.
I don't use the all copper pistol bullets, so I have no personal experience with them, other than the general awareness of how they behave differently than jacketed bullets. I wonder if perhaps the bullet was simply "too tight a fit" for that powder charge to push all the way through the barrel. The difficulty you had getting it out makes me wonder about that.
Might it be the combination of a very tight bullet, which doesn't compress the way lead does, a very light powder charge and the cylinder gap acting as a vent all together be the cause??
I don't know, just speculating.
Jim Watson
New member
There was a gunsmith on another board who said that when somebody brought in a stuck bullet, he would look concerned and say he would try to have it out in a day or two. Immediately after the customer left, he would pull a bullet, dump out some of the powder, I forget how much, and blow the stuck bullet out with no fuss. Hatcher said that worked some of the time.
We were shooting PPC when a friend stuck a bullet. He realized it, grabbed his squib rod, drove out the bullet, reloaded and finished the string within the time limit. He also stuck one and shot it out, bulging the barrel but not otherwise damaging the gun.
Dang, AMP, I have long heard that a starting load was 10% off the maximum. Alliant SAYS so; they only tabulate the maximum and people who don't read the first page of their www manual sometimes get surprised when they go straight to the "recommended" load.
Speer typically shows three loads; the ones I have checked were 90, 95, and 100%. I never had any "pressure signs" starting at the middle value. I seldom increased from that, either.
Lyman shows a lot of very reduced starting loads, some handgun powders they go down to 8000 psi in .38 Special and 14000 psi in .357 Magnum.
But if you reduce the starting load by another 10%, you are going to be frustrated if you are shooting an autoloader. I once worked down from my regular 9mm load to minimize recoil for a beginner. 88% of maximum was the lightest load that would function the pistol. If I were new to the caliber and started at 80%, it would have been a long struggle working up just to get the gun to operate.
We were shooting PPC when a friend stuck a bullet. He realized it, grabbed his squib rod, drove out the bullet, reloaded and finished the string within the time limit. He also stuck one and shot it out, bulging the barrel but not otherwise damaging the gun.
Dang, AMP, I have long heard that a starting load was 10% off the maximum. Alliant SAYS so; they only tabulate the maximum and people who don't read the first page of their www manual sometimes get surprised when they go straight to the "recommended" load.
Speer typically shows three loads; the ones I have checked were 90, 95, and 100%. I never had any "pressure signs" starting at the middle value. I seldom increased from that, either.
Lyman shows a lot of very reduced starting loads, some handgun powders they go down to 8000 psi in .38 Special and 14000 psi in .357 Magnum.
But if you reduce the starting load by another 10%, you are going to be frustrated if you are shooting an autoloader. I once worked down from my regular 9mm load to minimize recoil for a beginner. 88% of maximum was the lightest load that would function the pistol. If I were new to the caliber and started at 80%, it would have been a long struggle working up just to get the gun to operate.
When I was 12 years old and loading light cast lead bullet loads for my 303 Lee Enfield #1, I had one lead slug stuck half way down the barrel. Thinking I could shoot it out, I pulled a bullet from another identically loaded cartridge and chambered the round. Fortunately, I was smart enough to tie the rifle to the back side of a three foot diameter maple tree in the front yard. With a string tied to the trigger I gave it a yank from behind the far side of the tree. As the rifles action violently came apart the bolt handle hit the barn roof 65 yards away. Granted, the Lee Enfields are not a strong action, but regardless I haven't tried that stuck bullet removal method since.
schneiderguy
New member
I've also had issues with squibs using HP-38 and light (125gr) plated bullets, even using powder charges far from the minimum published loads. My conclusion at the time was also that it was likely due to insufficient crimping but I just don't load that combination anymore so I haven't really tested the theory. Never had any issues with cast lead bullets or heavier bullets and HP-38.
Jim Watson
New member
I stuck a bullet through getting lazy.
I wanted some mild loads to shoot an IDPA BUG match with my Model 12, M&P Airweight.
So I substituted some 125 gr bullets for my usual 160s, no change in powder charge or seating. Recoil and report were variable, shot to shot, until I finally stuck a bullet; fortunately the last round in the cylinder.
Extracting the case and pushing out the bullet brought out the powder, unburned.
I figure that drawing the gun threw the powder against the base of the light bullet, a long way away from the primer. Ignition was erratic until it didn't happen at all.
I reseated the remaining bullets much deeper with a good crimp rolled over the start of the ogive. Shooting was normal with consistent report and recoil. Just a fraction of an inch made all the difference.
I wanted some mild loads to shoot an IDPA BUG match with my Model 12, M&P Airweight.
So I substituted some 125 gr bullets for my usual 160s, no change in powder charge or seating. Recoil and report were variable, shot to shot, until I finally stuck a bullet; fortunately the last round in the cylinder.
Extracting the case and pushing out the bullet brought out the powder, unburned.
I figure that drawing the gun threw the powder against the base of the light bullet, a long way away from the primer. Ignition was erratic until it didn't happen at all.
I reseated the remaining bullets much deeper with a good crimp rolled over the start of the ogive. Shooting was normal with consistent report and recoil. Just a fraction of an inch made all the difference.
I learned reloading in the early 70s, mostly from material and people a generation or two older than I was at the time.
Even back then there were powder companies that only published one charge weight for their powder.
Speer, Hornady, Hogdon, and several others got their starts after WWII. Lyman (Ideal) on the other hand has been making reloading tools, bullet molds and publishing load data nearly as long as there have been reloadable cartridges.
I put more than just a bit of faith in their historical experience and institutional memory.
Jim Watson
New member
Lyman No 44, I think 1967, shows rifle starting loads from 87 to 91% of their maximum.
Their handgun starting loads are very light, down as low as 64%. As I said, that is going to drive you nuts with an automatic.
Alliant only shows the maximum load, you have to actually read the introduction to know to reduce by 10% to start.
Unfortunately, I can't find the reprint of the old DuPont literature.
Winchester used to say not to reduce 296 AT ALL and to use only WW components.
Their handgun starting loads are very light, down as low as 64%. As I said, that is going to drive you nuts with an automatic.
Alliant only shows the maximum load, you have to actually read the introduction to know to reduce by 10% to start.
Unfortunately, I can't find the reprint of the old DuPont literature.
Winchester used to say not to reduce 296 AT ALL and to use only WW components.
Did all of this happen with a load that was below the Minimum suggested Starting Load ?
5.0 grs. of HP38 instead of the starting load of 5.5 grs of HP38 ? ... Holey Sheep ... !
I guess they give those starting loads for a reason .
What a nightmare that stuck bullet caused ...
I'm going to start paying more attention to starting loads ... don't need this experience . They might be just as important as not exceeding Maximum Loads .
Okay ... the big question ... Did you get that stinking projectile out ?
I wouldn't have been able to do what you did .
Hope the proceedure works and no damage is done to barrel .
Gary
5.0 grs. of HP38 instead of the starting load of 5.5 grs of HP38 ? ... Holey Sheep ... !
I guess they give those starting loads for a reason .
What a nightmare that stuck bullet caused ...
I'm going to start paying more attention to starting loads ... don't need this experience . They might be just as important as not exceeding Maximum Loads .
Okay ... the big question ... Did you get that stinking projectile out ?
I wouldn't have been able to do what you did .
Hope the proceedure works and no damage is done to barrel .
Gary
stinkeypete
New member
Glad it worked out! And... light loads are for LEAD CAST BULLETS. Much 'slicker' than copper. Push that copper bullet stout!
ammo.crafter
New member
sticky .38
What is the diameter of the brass rod you are using?
Itr should be very close to the barrel diameter.
Freezing and lots of penetrating oils are great suggestions.
What is the diameter of the brass rod you are using?
Itr should be very close to the barrel diameter.
Freezing and lots of penetrating oils are great suggestions.
HighValleyRanch
New member
Thanks everyone. Yes I got the stuck bullet out, see in the thread.
Now I understand that the copper bullet probably has much more friction than lead, so that is why LeHigh's starting load is much higher than the low power load.
I loaded some 158 grain Berry's plated flat nose today and did as low as 3.6 grains of W231 and then up it to 4.1 grains for the desired load. No problems with too low a load with this and the plated bullets need a little more ump than just lead. I use cases cut off for scoops soldered to a wire handle and grind them to the desired height for the desired load and scoop load, but check each scoop weight on a digital scale as I load them into the cases. Only load five at a time and check the height of the powder visually to make sure there are no empty cases nor double charges. Then place the bullets and then seat and slightest roll crimp in one die.
Waiting for the crane screw from S&W before I test it out, and so I have time to test these reloads in my other revolvers first.
The brass rod I was using to push it out was 5/16".
Freezing and oils DID NOT WORK.
Now I understand that the copper bullet probably has much more friction than lead, so that is why LeHigh's starting load is much higher than the low power load.
I loaded some 158 grain Berry's plated flat nose today and did as low as 3.6 grains of W231 and then up it to 4.1 grains for the desired load. No problems with too low a load with this and the plated bullets need a little more ump than just lead. I use cases cut off for scoops soldered to a wire handle and grind them to the desired height for the desired load and scoop load, but check each scoop weight on a digital scale as I load them into the cases. Only load five at a time and check the height of the powder visually to make sure there are no empty cases nor double charges. Then place the bullets and then seat and slightest roll crimp in one die.
Waiting for the crane screw from S&W before I test it out, and so I have time to test these reloads in my other revolvers first.
The brass rod I was using to push it out was 5/16".
Freezing and oils DID NOT WORK.
Why would it??
So, you load below starting load and it doesn't cycle. That too is useful information. The whole point is to load a FEW rounds light to test and ensure the gun will take them. 2, or 5, or a full cylinder/magazine's worth, but not more than that. Loading any quantity of an untested load is just asking for more work, just as loading ammo for a gun you don't have in hand is asking for more work, and a bunch of frustration.
Some time back there was a fellow here that was waiting on delivery of a .45 Win Mag. He had dies, he had brass, & bullets and was waiting for the gun to arrive. He asked about loads and the advice he got (and not just from me) was to not load anything until he had the gun in hand.
He didn't wait, and loaded a couple hundred rounds. When the gun arrived he found none of his ammo would chamber in it. So he had to break all of them down and start over.
A couple points about loading light under LISTED starting loads, and a bit of history. The further back in time you go, the higher the percentage of older guns in use you find. General loading advice (which is what 10% under starting level is) evolved in an era when actual blackpowder guns, and guns made in the transitional years were still commonly found in use.
Second point, no matter what the data says, no matter what the computer program says, YOUR gun is not what was used in testing. Nor are your components. Even if you match everything as closely as you can, there is always a tiny chance you will get drastically different results.
Ok, so Lyman is more conservative (particularly with handgun rounds) than other manuals for starting loads. What HARM does that do?
as to the op's squib, assuming all else was done right, I think the actual culprit was lack of understanding the difference between all copper and other bullets Besides the fact that copper needs a bit more "push" than lead, all copper bullets must be longer than lead or jacketed lead bullets of the same weight. And that usually means a longer bearing surface, which means a higher amount of friction in the bore.
My guess at this point is that the listed starting load for that all copper slug was just on the functional side of marginal, to begin with and dropping the charge 10% (which probably wouldn't have made a difference with a lead slug) was enough to move it from just above to just below marginal, and that resulted in the squib.
I wonder if you could fill the barrel with oil, hammer a soft wad cutter in from the front and hydraulicy push it out? I would use a taped steel rod.
OP, if you wouldn’t mind. Maybe you could shoot another squib and try this method and let me know if it works.
Fortunately, my only squib was a soft lead bullet and was pretty easy to remove.
Mike
OP, if you wouldn’t mind. Maybe you could shoot another squib and try this method and let me know if it works.
Fortunately, my only squib was a soft lead bullet and was pretty easy to remove.
Mike
HighValleyRanch
New member
UPDATE
I got the yoke retention screws from S&W today in the mail, installed one and took it down to my range to test fire for my upcoming CCW renewal in a week and half.
Shot 4 rounds of PMC .38 special factory 132 gr, FMJ, all shot slightly low at 7 o'clock. Shot 6 rounds of my 158 gr. Berry FN with 4.1 of W231 and they shot right on, in the black to the right.
3" group shot DA with heavy trigger pull at 10 yards, so will easily qualify with this one.
So glad to have this one back!
S&W sent me 1/2 dozen of the yoke screws! with the locktite already on the threads. Guess they lose a lot of them.
I found other round I had reloaded and when I measured the. powder, it came out around 4.7 grains, but some might have gotten lost in the bullet pulling.
But.....
I weighed the bullet and it ended up 90 grains, and measure .354" so that means that I mistakenly loaded my 9mm LeHighs into my .38 spl. cases which ended up causing the squibb. In puling the bullet, it only took one hard smack to dislodge the bullet, so still thinking that the undersized bullet and not enough crimp contributed to the squibb. I weighed and measured all the other bullets in that envelope and they all were the 9mm Lehigh's, so when I packed everything away a while back I mistakenly put the 9mm bullets in the envelope into the .38 special LeHigh box.
So why wouldn't an undersized bullet just come out of the barrel easier than pie? Well, I did manage to push it back with a wooden rod to the forcing cone, but I feel that pounding on it with a brass rod and trying to push it back cause the bullet hollow base to flare out to get more stuck, and light hits with the brass rod only smashed the bullet wider to make it really stuck in the barrel.
My machinist friend agreed with that theory and said that pressing it out was the way to go.
Live and learn!
I got the yoke retention screws from S&W today in the mail, installed one and took it down to my range to test fire for my upcoming CCW renewal in a week and half.
Shot 4 rounds of PMC .38 special factory 132 gr, FMJ, all shot slightly low at 7 o'clock. Shot 6 rounds of my 158 gr. Berry FN with 4.1 of W231 and they shot right on, in the black to the right.
3" group shot DA with heavy trigger pull at 10 yards, so will easily qualify with this one.
So glad to have this one back!
S&W sent me 1/2 dozen of the yoke screws! with the locktite already on the threads. Guess they lose a lot of them.
I found other round I had reloaded and when I measured the. powder, it came out around 4.7 grains, but some might have gotten lost in the bullet pulling.
But.....
I weighed the bullet and it ended up 90 grains, and measure .354" so that means that I mistakenly loaded my 9mm LeHighs into my .38 spl. cases which ended up causing the squibb. In puling the bullet, it only took one hard smack to dislodge the bullet, so still thinking that the undersized bullet and not enough crimp contributed to the squibb. I weighed and measured all the other bullets in that envelope and they all were the 9mm Lehigh's, so when I packed everything away a while back I mistakenly put the 9mm bullets in the envelope into the .38 special LeHigh box.
So why wouldn't an undersized bullet just come out of the barrel easier than pie? Well, I did manage to push it back with a wooden rod to the forcing cone, but I feel that pounding on it with a brass rod and trying to push it back cause the bullet hollow base to flare out to get more stuck, and light hits with the brass rod only smashed the bullet wider to make it really stuck in the barrel.
My machinist friend agreed with that theory and said that pressing it out was the way to go.
Live and learn!
Aguila Blanca
Staff
JohnKSa said:
Yikes!