Safety Rules--How many GET it?

[Scattergun Bob]

Checking the condition of a Revolver

The nice thing about revolvers is that you can check even without opening the cylinder.

... I take it you are looking for rims on the backside of the cylinder?

You can, but it only takes a second or two more to open the thing.

These statements are not NECESSARLY true. If you revolver has counter-bored charge holes (as in my model 28), then the rims of the cartridges are barely or not visible at all from the rear of the cylinder. Many of the older S&W revolvers were produced in this manner. Best to open the cylinder up boys, just to make sure.

Good Luck & Be Safe

 

[Brit]

However, there are times when I am training with a select few knowledgable and experienced people that we use our actual carry weapons for various drills.

NEVER EVER!! A real working weapon, never gets pointed at anyone you would not be concerned with shooting. Ever.

The amount of students, and Police Firearms Instructors who have been shot dead with unloaded guns? Many! On ranges, but mostly in classes.

Red or blue guns, made of solid plastic, or fiber glass. They can be used, you can see they are not real, but even then, when used in a class, to demo movement, still is not pointed at fellow class members.

Air soft, and proper eye protection used in Police academy's. With many checks, and further checks.

 

[booker_t]

If you're using a carry/duty weapon for training, it's worth a few bucks to get a bright yellow plastic training barrel insert which replaces the barrel and therefore makes the weapon impossible to shoot, but allows you to include the weight of a loaded magazine (for a semiauto).

They've been discussed extensively in other, similar, threads.

 

[Skans]

Red or blue guns, made of solid plastic, or fiber glass. They can be used, you can see they are not real, but even then, when used in a class, to demo movement, still is not pointed at fellow class members.

Air soft, and proper eye protection used in Police academy's. With many checks, and further checks.

Sorry, none of the above are the same thing as using your usual carry gun. Not even close! Size, weight, trigger - especally on those using double action only, not the same. We use our carry guns. We try out others as well to see what works well in different situations. We are adults. We know what we are doing. And, there is no law restricting me from training with a real firearm. I do take safety precautions and take safety very seriously. Firearms are checked multiple times by everyone individually and in front of everyone. You may not like or agree with the way I like to train, and I am not trying to convince others to do it the way I do it. But, there is a legitimate purpose for practicing different drills with real, unloaded firearms - that's all I'm saying.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

NEVER EVER!! A real working weapon, never gets pointed at anyone you would not be concerned with shooting. Ever.

Simmunition guns are real working (firearm) weapons.

Air soft, and proper eye protection used in Police academy's.

Airsoft are real weapons, not firearms, but are weapons.

With many checks, and further checks.

And yet people keep getting wounded or killed during training with training guns that turn out to be real, sort of like "unloaded" guns.

So we have absolutist safety rules that if followed would actually keep people from getting harmed, but we have rules that are blatantly ignored and all the "work arounds" to the safety rules and people keep getting hurt and killed. It is a very interesting problem.

Notice that while we have a set of 4 formal and very simplistic safety rules, we do not have a set of corollary "work around" safety rules that are codified. I suppose that even if codified, we will likely have a set of institutionally approved blatant violations for them as well.

Everyone just says that we need to check and recheck, to be careful, etc., but individuals, departments, training schools all do it differently. No doubt part of the problem is that there are all sorts of different circumstances and platforms for which there need to be rules.

 

[DT Guy]

Sorry, none of the above are the same thing as using your usual carry gun. Not even close! Size, weight, trigger - especally on those using double action only, not the same. We use our carry guns. We try out others as well to see what works well in different situations. We are adults. We know what we are doing. And, there is no law restricting me from training with a real firearm. I do take safety precautions and take safety very seriously. Firearms are checked multiple times by everyone individually and in front of everyone. You may not like or agree with the way I like to train, and I am not trying to convince others to do it the way I do it. But, there is a legitimate purpose for practicing different drills with real, unloaded firearms - that's all I'm saying.

I have no desire to stop you. This is a discussion board, a poor medium for that anyway.

I have been fortunate to train with people who do this for a living, and they would not do what you're doing. It might be HSLD, but there is equipment available to obviate the need of using operational weapons in training. The reason there is such equipment is that many units along the way who are serious and concerned about safety when using live weapons have shot each other. This created a need, and manufacturers have filled it with training barrels, sim guns, airsoft guns and other equipment.

You can certainly do as you please. But IMHO you're doing it unsafely, at least compared to alternatives that are readily available.

Larry

 

[Skans]

DT Guy, your comments are well taken. From a statistical perspective given relatively large numbers of trainees, using airsoft or simulation guns would likely be a safer method than using real firearms, even with multiple safety checks.

However, I am quite confident in the safety measures my small group uses and on that basis I am willing to make the trade-off of using actual carry guns to the safer practice of using simulated weapons. Its a matter of choice, and I acknowledge that when I participate in these simulations, I'm choosing less safety over being able to use actual carry weapons. I suppose that if we had the money and ability to purchase training barrels for all of our guns, that would be the best of both worlds.

 

[pax]

And, there is no law restricting me from training with a real firearm.

If you live in Washington state, there certainly is. Perhaps your own state has a similar law on the books:

(1) For conduct not amounting to a violation of chapter 9A.36 RCW, any person who:

(a) Aims any firearm, whether loaded or not, at or towards any human being;

...

although no injury results, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

Doesn't matter that it's not loaded and that your intentions are benign, or that you aren't committing a criminal assault. If you point your gun at another human being in this state, you have committed a gross misdemeanor punishable by up to a year in jail and a $5000 fine.

As for the (dangerous, foolish) notion that one can somehow advance with firearms to the point where the safety rules no longer apply to you -- that's an idea that kills a certain number of SWAT team members, military personnel including "elite" teams, DT instructors and their students every year. Check out Ken Murray's wonderful and very instructive Training at the Speed of Life for a better understanding of the scope of the problem and also for a good outline of some ways to solve it. The book is very very helpful for those seeking realism in training, which it sounds as if you are. I strongly recommend it, as it may help you build better and even more realistic drills for yourself and your friends while maintaining a safer environment.

pax

 

[pax]

Just thought to add: training barrels cost around $15 apiece. Damn cheap compared to the cost of a human life.

Or even the cost of a holster, which you've certainly purchased for all the guns you train with.

pax

 

[DogoDon]

If you're using a carry/duty weapon for training, it's worth a few bucks to get a bright yellow plastic training barrel insert which replaces the barrel and therefore makes the weapon impossible to shoot, but allows you to include the weight of a loaded magazine (for a semiauto).

That seems like an ideal solution to me. Yes, the training barrel will be lighter in weight than the actual barrel, but that's a small compromise to make in order to ensure that an accident cannot happen. Thanks, booker_t!

DD

 

[Skans]

Training barrels sound like a good idea - something I've haven't considered before. I'll look into seeing if they have training barrels for my carry gun(s).

 

[thesheepdog]

The 4 safety rules:

1. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times; what constitutes a safe direction "a direction in the event the firearm were to discharge, the projectile would not harm property, life or person".

2. Do not load until you are ready to start shooting-rifle is pointed in a safe direction

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Make sure others around you are following the safety rules.

Sadly, people don't follow these rules. I can't tell you how many times I have been swept by a barrel because the was owner being careless.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

That's an interesting law, Pax. How does it handle training situations that use real firearms. I've been in several classes and event that use real revolvers with Code Eagle or sims?

Do the folks in WA state like FAS or Insights worry about that? I've been in Insights classes with Code Eagle in TX.

 

[pax]

Glenn ~ I don't know how Insights handles it. At FAS, we use Airsoft for scenario training -- which aren't "firearms" because they do not fire their projectiles using the rapid, confined burning of a propellant.

Skans ~ Excellent! Here are two good sources:

www.blade-tech.com/Training-Barrel-pr-1018.html

www.trainsafe.us

Of the two, I personally prefer to use the Blade Tech product, but the Train Safe block works with more brands of firearm and it costs less. Either one allows great realism and lets you use your own holsters & other gear without a hitch.

To use these products to best advantage, I also pick up a roll of brightly-colored yellow, orange, or red electrical tape from the hardware store. After the barrel is installed, I stripe the tape around the grip of the gun and leave it there until I take the training barrel back out. This does two things:

1) It lets me see at a glance, while the gun is still in the holster, that it's one of the "safe" guns,

and

2) It prevents me from grabbing that gun for self defense, even if I later toss it in the safe with the training barrel still in place.

When working with friends, we all know to watch what's in each other's holsters. Anyone who spots an unmarked gun knows to call an immediate CEASEFIRE until the situation is clarified and remedied.

pax

 

[Double Naught Spy]

The 4 safety rules:

1. Keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction at all times; what constitutes a safe direction "a direction in the event the firearm were to discharge, the projectile would not harm property, life or person".

2. Do not load until you are ready to start shooting-rifle is pointed in a safe direction

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

4. Make sure others around you are following the safety rules.

Wow, thesheepdog, I don't believe those are quite the safe rules we were discussing or are quite a set that I have seen before, but your variant introduces yet another problem to the equation, doesn't it? Is everyone using the same set of rules? Coopers' rules are here...http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

There are the 3 NRA rules http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp. Canada's rules - ACTS. Remington's 10 commandments http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/10-commandments.aspx . I am sure there are some other sets out there as well.

I see your rules pretty well preclude the use of many belt holsters, pocket carry, thunderwear, pagerpal ,etc. too.

The notion of never loading until you are ready to start shooting sounds like it would make a lot of armed defense fairly useless, and even if it just applies to rifles, would make many hard to use properly and effectively for patrol or for hunting.

I have never seen #4 before anywhere. I guess that would be the "everybody is a RSO" rule.

 

[thesheepdog]

Wow, thesheepdog, I don't believe those are quite the safe rules we were discussing or are quite a set that I have seen before, but your variant introduces yet another problem to the equation, doesn't it? Is everyone using the same set of rules? Coopers' rules are here...http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html

There are the 3 NRA rules http://www.nrahq.org/education/guide.asp. Canada's rules - ACTS. Remington's 10 commandments http://www.remington.com/pages/news-...mandments.aspx . I am sure there are some other sets out there as well.

I see your rules pretty well preclude the use of many belt holsters, pocket carry, thunderwear, pagerpal ,etc. too.

The notion of never loading until you are ready to start shooting sounds like it would make a lot of armed defense fairly useless, and even if it just applies to rifles, would make many hard to use properly and effectively for patrol or for hunting.

I have never seen #4 before anywhere. I guess that would be the "everybody is a RSO" rule.

Mine are "Range Rules". Not at all self defense rules; but the OP was regarding "general safety rules".

The most important rule is "every gun is loaded, always".

Here is what constitutes a safe rifle:

1. Magazine out.

2. Bolt back and locked.

3. Safety on.

4. Chamber flag in (if on a range)

5. Rifle Grounded.

6. Nobody is touching your rifle.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Mine are "Range Rules". Not at all self defense rules; but the OP was regarding "general safety rules".

Okay, so your rules aren't really general safety rules, but your particular range's rules. FYI, Cooper's rules are not "self defense rules," but rules of gun safety regardless of being on the range, hunting, or at the mini mart.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I always regarded Cooper's rules as easy mnemonics devices as compared to absolutes.

They are :

1.All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.
2.Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3.Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target. This is the Golden Rule. Its violation is directly responsible for about 60 percent of inadvertent discharges.
4.Identify your target, and what is behind it. Never shoot at anything that you have not positively identified.

But I view them as:

1. Don't shoot the wrong thing and here's ways you can do it.

a. You forget the gun is loaded and pull the trigger
b. You pointed it at something you shouldn't shoot but you pulled the trigger
c. You accidentally or stupidly pulled the trigger at the wrong time.
d. You shot the wrong thing as you didn't know what you were shooting at you shot the right thing but your round zipped through it.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

But I just knew that door was open...

Shouldn't have done such a good job windexing it the day before.

Personally, I'm bettin' 2 crows shut it.

 

[Brit]

In each case of an inadvertent shot causing death or injury, it seems the two huge causes, irrespective of the NRA excellent published safety rules.

Are safe direction, pressing the trigger!

The incredible Safety record of the two biggest action sports with firearms, USPSA/IPSC & IDPA are based on simplicity, the pistol stays in the holster, till you come under the direction of a RO/SO. Millions of rounds go down range during these competitions, shooters run all over the range (The younger ones at high speed!) with the loaded pistol held in the hand... SAFE DIRECTION and FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TILL TARGET ACQUIRED!

Following these simple directions, tends to keep bullets out of body's!

A very experienced shooter was DQd from the World Shoot of IPSC in Florida in Orlando, 1986? I watched this competitor insert a loaded magazine in to a holstered Colt 45, the gun fired! He was later allowed to continue, but lost that stage, when a Gun Smith was able to duplicate that firing, grit on the magazine bypassed both the thumb safety, and the grip safety, it caused the trigger to be moved internally.