Safety Rules--How many GET it?

[Deputy Dog]

I teach the NRA Basic Pistol Course at a gun shop, we are in a back room, but customers still have access to the room for there is merchandise back there. I will have the class take a break every hour or so, and its always after I go through the proper way to pick up and inspect and the proper hand-off/receiving techniques I will walk out into the shop to see some of my students receiving firearms from one of the owners friends (who helps him from time to time) complete opposite of what I just physically showed and had them execute themselves. The excuse from the student is usually, " Well he has to know what he is doing right, he is standing behind the counter" the excuse from the friend is "I know it's not loaded, I have been around guns all my life and never had ND "

ND's happen due to carelessness and ignorance, the problem is that most people that pick up or go to pick a firearm for the first time dont think they need instruction. Or they have been taught by a family member who may have instilled bad habbits from the get go. I have seen it time and time again, please get someone you know proper instruction from someone who teaches on a regular bassis that way there nothing has been left out.

DD

 

[MikeNice81]

The last gun show I went to I was jittery as all get out. Nearly every other table had some idiot sighting a firearm in to the crowd. I was swept by at least a dozen rifles and shotguns. Those are just the ones I noticed.

I kept thinking about a story I heard. At some gun show a couple of kids were arrested. They had brought several individual bullets and were loading them in to guns. I was hoping that some kids here hadn't had a similar idea.

Anytime I feel like I need to put my finger on the trigger I check the chamber. Even though the guns are sitting without a clip, and a zip tie around the slide, I check. You can usually only get the slide back an inch or so, but safe is better than in jail or dead.

I also keep the gun at low ready. The gun is usually pointe at the box it sits on. That way if I did miss anything the bullet would go through the box and table. Then it will hit the floor. I never pull the gun up and sight in to the crowd.

 

[NickW]

I've noticed a trend the last few years of a very cavalier attitude regarding safety. It runs hand-in-hand with a reluctance among new shooters to seek out adequate instruction.

+1 Complacency kills every time, approximately 1200 times in the USA every year.

I'm lucky, I have an outdoor range on my property, my adult Son’s friend’s all want to come over and shoot. My Son will bring his pals over to shoot; however, he tells them under no uncertain terms that his Dad will be there and that they must recite the four basic laws of weapons safety off by wrote and that any transgression means they leave and never come back; needless, out of a dozen people that have asked him only two come regularly.

Most gun owners do not truly “Get It” and I mean TRULY until they look into the eyes of a dying comrade. That may seem a bit melodramatic but I believe it to be true.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Anytime someone says that the gun isn't loaded as an excuse for pointing it in an unsafe direction they're proving that they don't get it.

You ALWAYS keep a gun pointed in a safe direction so that it becomes second nature. The goal is that even if your concentration slips your good habits will prevent an incident.

Funny thing, from several different gun schools and instructors, I have been repeatedly taught that during a magazine pistol change that the pistol is to be rotated in the hand and canted upward (usually at about a 30-45 degree angle) so that the strong hand thumb (for right handers) can reach the magazine release. The mag is dropped as a new mag is extracted from the mag pouch and inserted in the gun, with the gun still rotated and pointed skyward. The slide is dropped (either by release or slingshot) and the gun is returned on target.

What just happened? In every outdoor class I have been in, it means that the gun isn't pointed at the backstop, but over it and somewhere off to the left and the impact area will be some place that the shooter does not know to be safe. By teaching this technique in that manner, it means shooters are being taught an unsafe procedure despite the safety rules and that it is okay to violate the safety rules for the purpose of making a more expedient magazine change.

When I queried one instructor about this during a class, I was told that I had nothing to worry about because there wasn't anything in that direction other than cattle. So I guess it was okay to shoot somebody else's cattle eek, but that doesn't do jack for if I have to do it in real life, on a city street, where canting my gun up and left means it may be pointing in some apartment window or travel down range and hit somebody several streets away.

Another instructor pointed out that changing mags in that manner is no more unsafe than carrying the gun in high ready position, hence not to worry about it. Personally, I never thought high ready was all that safe.

So what I get from this is that violations of the safety rules is just fine and dandy when the violation occurs as a result of a standardized procedure approved by the instructor. However, you can bet that if a ND happens and someone is harmed as a result of the practice, the instructor will be at the front of the line to condemn the unsafe gun handling.

In the CNBC/Rem 700 threads, many people were quick to point out that injuries and deaths resulting from the Rem 700 problem would not have occurred had the gun handler kept the gun pointed in a safe direction at all times. In multiple cases, the gun handlers thought the guns were pointed in a safe direction as they did not perceive anyone immediately being covered by the muzzle. So people were shot through walls, on higher floors, behind a horse trailer, etc.

In 10 years, I have seen two people shoot high left during the process of a mag change. The round was not kept within the safe confines of the range.

Clint Smith gets it, but notes its advantage in regard to self defense concerns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVGQQhkjzec

 

[JohnKSa]

DNS,

That's always been a puzzler to me too. I've seen people do that on ranges. I've seen people do it in televised/videotaped competitions. I've seen instructors do it in tutorials on televised programs showing exactly what you describe. When I teach reloads, I tell the student to keep the muzzle downrange--I don't understand how anyone could, in good conscience do otherwise. So far I've seen one of my students have an unintentional discharge during a reload. The shot went into the backstop--in fact it actually hit the target. Had I taught him the typical muzzle up reload that unintentional discharge would have almost certainly left the range.

Here's a thread on another forum where I asked the question that you just asked and was told that it's not a problem at all to point a loaded gun over the backstop. Why did they say it is ok? Because USPSA allows it. Because it makes the reload faster and easier. An interesting and disturbing message to send. "Muzzle control is critical unless disregarding it makes something a little faster and/or a little easier." "Muzzle control is very important but it's a total non issue in certain situations if you can find an example of a large organization that allows you to violate the rule in some cases." Wow.

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=186785

Some folks pointed out that in a real shooting (where there is no backstop) muzzle up isn't such a bad idea. That's makes some sense, I suppose, in a real shooting, but everyone I know has to practice on ranges with backstops of finite height and are constrained (legally, morally and ethically) to keep all their rounds on the range.

I have shot at one range where the RSO/RO will chide shooters for EVER letting their muzzle stray above or near the top of the berm--even during a reload and even when the gun is empty. As it should be.

Thanks for the video link. Clint apparently teaches his students to reload using a technique remarkably similar to what I teach. I may be screwed up but at least I have company.

 

[Jim March]

To me, muzzle direction is the "top rule". If your muzzle direction is OK, things cannot get too serious. Annoying, loud, yes, but nobody dies.

At a gun show or anyplace else it is impossible for me to point a gun at somebody who isn't a threat. If I'm checking a sight picture or something it'll be up in the air at a vendor's sign, corner of the building or whatever, finger off trigger.

One of the things I really like about SA revolvers is that I can quickly pull the cylinder pin, pull the cylinder, replace the pin (so the action works on a New Model Ruger) and now it's technically "no longer a gun". I still won't point it at anybody but...the safety issues are vastly reduced AND almost anybody in the room can tell it's disabled.

The scary part is dry-fire-and-draw practice.

I use a garage that has a solid brick wall, no windows, from the inside. There's no people for a long, long ways on the other side. The really important part is the need to have mental queues for "gun going cold" and "GUN GOING HOT NOW - ALL DONE - NO MORE PLAY!!!".

In other words, when restoring the gun to duty, I more or less meditate over it as now being loaded for a matter of minutes. An accidental "one more quickdraw" has left a lot of holes in a lot of TV sets, at best.

 

[bensdad]

Reading this and agreeing wholeheartedly I remember my brothers story.
He and his friend (Mike), who just bought a 357 and 9 mm Glock, where sitting around after being out. My brother does not drink but his friend did. Mike was not drunk just a couple of beers.
Nevertheless he wanted to show off his new guns. Takes them out of the cases. Hands my brother the 357, who checks it and unloads it. Hands it back to the guy unloaded. Friend hands him the Glock, my brother unloads this one also and looks at it and puts it back unloaded into the case.
Friend loads the 357 and puts it on the table. Puts the clip back into the Glock and puts it back into the case.
Grabs the 357 and messes with it. Gun goes off and misses my brothers leg but left a hole in the pants. The bullet misses a loaded shotgun by a couple of inches right by some ammo and they find the bullet lodge in some wood in the garage. My brother said they both about peed their pants.
My brother never went back over to his friends house again.

A couple of months later the same friend went to Florida on vacation taking his guns with him (he is not licensed to carry, nor has taken any classes). While there and carrying them on him, he gets stopped by some type of security guard in a bar who confiscated his gun and tells him to get it tomorrow at the police station or as he has been drinking he can have him arrested by the police now. He gave up his guns thinking he would have no more trouble. He goes to the PD the next day and guess what, they don't know what the hell he is talking about. They took his information and told him good luck getting his guns back, and also that he could be charged with a crime. They go to the bar and they do not know about any security guy.He and our other friend who went with him had a long drive back. Our other buddy never went anywhere with him either.

Some people should not have guns because they are idiots and will not follow gun safety or laws.

 

[jrothWA]

This one STick in my mind...

was small game hunting back IN Ohio.

Another hunter came up on my buddy & I, and proceeded to ground the shotgun butt, and place his elbow on the MUZZLE, forearm in-line with barrel.
I asked if he understood the the "Big Green" firearm that only block the trigger from operating and the hammer is free to move.

It's okay the safety's on... Just shoook my head afterwards.

Any time I be approached or stopped by wardens I ulound of cap-off the firearm.

 

[thump_rrr]

I was in a restricted firearms course last weekend.
I usually like to participate in any course I attend so I sat in the front row.
When it came time for everyone to handle the deactivated firearms (drilled barrels) they were told to handle the firearms as if they were loaded.
They were also told to safety check any weapon that was handed to them and any weapon they were handing off to the next person.
I have never been coverd by a muzzle more times in my life than I was in that classroom.
There were some people who were wondering why I kept ducking.
Needless to say I sat at the back of the class the next day.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I was trying to find an old thread where it had been debated about canting the pistol up and left during a reload and whether or not it was unsafe. I haven't found the thread yet, but found this link in another thread.

Apparently, the practice is called "The Rule of 45" and people continue to teach it as a proper method. Note in the text and video that no mention is made regarding muzzle safety. It is presented as if pointing the gun up and out is perfectly normal and safe.
http://ballseyesboomers.blogspot.com/search/label/rule of 45

Also see...
http://watch2video.net/handgun-shooting-tip-5-speed-reloading-video-MsUvCD3GUpj.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbC5mEc6ipE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GsmUzSBaUQ

Note that several of the folks in the vids above caution students about having their fingers inside the trigger guard during the reload, but show an apparently complete disregard for muzzle safety. These people are basically training an unsafe behavior and it is a pervasive standard throughout much of the industry...and each and every one of them doesn't appear to have a clue that they are doing something unsafe. Also note that in a couple of the vids, you can clearly see the guns pointed well above the berms around the ranges and the gun handlers don't even bother to look in the direction their guns are pointing to make sure that they aren't doing anything wrong.

In the last to vids, I got a kick out of each shooter noting that the magazines are extracted, held, and inserted with just two points of contact, the meat of the palm and the index finger, though both guys are obviously using their thumbs and middle fingers as well.

 

[bensdad]

I was at my CCL class and the instructor was showing the different makes and models of guns and ammo. He showed the class how to load and unload the guns, with dummy bullets.
During break he invited everyone to come and check out the guns. As one can imagine there were a lot of novices there who would point at others and were told to stop. Everybody was instructed before not to dry fire, so of course three people had to do this.
After looking at some of the guns I came across the 22 revolver he had loaded earlier and of course the dummy cartridge was in the chamber. Took it out and gave the gun and ammo to the instructor.
He was very thankful and had wondered how many people would handle the gun before noticing this. I was probably the 8th person to look at it.
I don't know about the tactic but it makes you wonder when people do hand you a gun if they really know if it is unloaded.
I was surprised that some people did not shoot somebody (or themselves) by accident at the range, but he ran a real tight ship and nobody was allowed to point their gun other than downrange, which they somewhat did. I was in the second group so got to leave before some of the more dangerous characters had their turn. I know nobody is perfect and may have never handled a firearm before but some of them seem to think it was just a toy, and handled it that way. I did not grow up around guns but I give it respect for what it can do. As they say you can't take that shot back once it has been fired.

 

[amazon shooter]

I might as well tell my story too.

Some years ago my German friend bought a used Walther PPK - his first gun.
Since my first gun was a Walther, I showed him the safety features and how to take off the slide. I also told him about the gun safety rules I was taught by the NRA when I was a boy.

The next day, he said, "You will not believe what happened?" I still don't believe what he told me. He said, "While I was cleaning my gun, it fired a bullet." Yup, the gun went off as he was sitting at the kitchen counter cleaning his gun while his girlfriend was cooking. The bullet richocheted around three walls just missing him and his girlfriend.

I'll give him a D- on his report card - at least he didn't have it aimed at his girlfriend.

I guess he just didn't get it. And to think that guys like him are out there with a LOADED GUNS.

 

[Brit]

USPSA not only allow the "Point up and left reload" they have many times used photographs in their magazine depicting that method. I am a Life Member (get the magazine free!)

Think about the mechanics of a reload a bit, if you are right handed, and do the up and left reload, you are moving the magazine well away from the nose of the new magazine.

Just rotating the pistol to the right, but level with the ground, keeps the muzzle pointing at the back stop, and is pointing the magazine well, directly at the new magazine insertion.

In an adrenalin fueled situation (a gun fight) you can actually touch your body with both arms, lessening your chance of a shake/fumble dropped magazine.

Who can shake that much, to have a shake that bad, for it to be a problem! Hullo?

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Hypocrisy

We are all familiar with the 4 safety rules of Jeff Cooper, right?
http://thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html This listing appears to come from The Modern Technique of the Pistol, pages 8-10

We all know that Jeff Cooper is a huge icon in much of the gun world and that some of his teachings, especially the gun safety rules are dogma. So it would be reasonable to expect that Cooper, whilst living, would be the living embodiment of his safety rules. Turns out, such an expectation would be very naive and that Cooper really didn't practice what he preached. I am not sure that he GETS it at all.

Here is Jeff Cooper violating his own safety rules .... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKgAkwB8WRo

How many violations do you see?

Rule I? Is Cooper handling the gun as if it was loaded? Does it appear that he is engaged in partial compliance? Would it bother you to see a person handling a loaded gun in that manner? Remember that accordng to Cooper in regard to Rule I, There are no exceptions. So what part of "no" doesn't he understand?

Rule II? With the opening scene of Cooper, he draws his 1911 and covers his leg in the process. Later when he reholsters, he covers his leg again.

Rule III? Does Cooper keep his finger off the trigger until his sights are on target? Nope.

Rule IV? His target seems to be the ceiling, walls, and back of the classroom.

Check out Jeff pointing his pistol over the berm and covering his leg as he reholsters. There is a very clear closeup of him covering his own leg as he reholsters at 2:44... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci3uPXj6Dpo&feature=related

From the examples in these two videos, you can see that when Cooper reholsters his gun each time, to find the mouth of the holster, he cants the muzzle of his gun toward himself. He does it repeatedly and consistently.

In the summary section of the safety rules, Cooper says...

Make these rules a part of your character. Never compromise them. Improper gunhandling results from ignorance and improper role modeling, such as handling your gun like your favorite actor does. Education can cure this. You can make a difference by following these gunhandling rules and insisting that those around you do the same. Set the example. Who knows what tragedies you, or someone you influence, may prevent?

Based on the videos and his summary about the safety rules, he has not made the safety rules part of his character. He has compromised them. He is either ignorant or has chosen a wrong role model. Education has not cured this for him. He certainly is not making a difference by following the gun safety rules given his wanton disregard for them.

No doubt some of y'all will want to flame me for blasphemy and likely come up with all sorts of reasons why Cooper's actions in the videos aren't actual safety violations or that he gets a free ride because the violations are part of the teaching process or that he is a gun guru with a long history in the shooting world. I simply did nothing more than to compare his rules and his standards for those rules to his actions.

 

[Catfishman]

I'll add the courtesy checking the chamber as a firearm is picked up,or passed.It tells me something if a person opens,or fails to open,an action before handing me a firearm.

Courtesy Check. I really like that

 

[DT Guy]

I always thought of myself as a safe gun-handler.

Having to teach my sons, however, strongly reinforced some things I'd always done, but taken for granted.

Handing my 17 year old a pistol, he'll pop it open and check the chamber-period. This is whether I've handed it to him, his grandfather's handed it to him or Jeff Cooper's ghost has handed it to him.

This persistence of habit; not ever becoming 'too good' to have to follow the rules-is what keeps us safe. The rigid, unyielding obedience to safe gun-handling rules isn't a crutch, it's the path to continuing safety.


Larry

 

[MLeake]

I am a bit perplexed by the 45 degree reload comments. I can see it for a revolver, as the muzzle pointing up helps with ejection, but I can't see how it would be beneficial for an auto.

Back in Navy security training, the Gunny (Marines used to provide firearms instructors for USN security departments, back when) taught us to keep the 1911 on target throughout the reload. This greatly sped up target acquisition after the reload.

Of course, he also advocated reloading before running dry. As the 1911 could be fired with loaded chamber and empty mag well, this allowed us to actually cover the target during the reload.

So, why are people rotating their autos during a reload? I don't get it...

 

[Double Naught Spy]

They get rotated for a couple of reasons dealing with making it easier to get a new magazine into the gun. The first reason is to gain better access to the mag release button. Unless you have really long thumbs or big hands, the mag release is really difficult to reach for some people. Rotating the gun gives you better access to the button.

About 7 or 8 years ago, I had a class with Ken Hackathorn who advocated holding the rotated gun in front of one's face because at that moment, the most important thing in the world (if you are in a battle) is getting the gun reloaded and back into the fight. So you want the gun up in front of the face so that you can clearly see the mag and magwell such that the insertion isn't fumbled in any way. So rotating the gun gives you easier access to the mag well. Holding the rotated gun in front of your face lets you see the process. Personally, the notion of holding the gun in front of one's face and losing situational awareness is an awfully shortsighted idea.

Keeping your target covered during reload, toward the threat, or keeping the gun pointed safely down range really does make much more sense from the perspectives of safety and defense. It is a bit more difficult to become proficient doing in that manner, however. If the problem is just getting access to the mag well, then after dropping the spent magazine, the gun can be rotated along the axis of the bore such that the gun remains pointed down range and toward the target/threat.

 

[Nnobby45]

To me, muzzle direction is the "top rule". If your muzzle direction is OK, things cannot get too serious. Annoying, loud, yes, but nobody dies.

To suggest that muzzle direction is more important than finger off trigger is incredible.

Bullets can penetrate ceilings, floors and walls no matter how muzzle conscious you are.

To believe that is to believe that the resin is more important than the hardner.

 

[Tom Servo]

To suggest that muzzle direction is more important than finger off trigger is incredible. Bullets can penetrate ceilings, floors and walls no matter how muzzle conscious you are.

None of the four rules allows someone to violate any of the other three.

I once had a very interesting conversation with someone who tried to excuse his behavior by saying, "look, you and I both know that concrete stops bullets."

No, we don't both know that. Several years ago, I spoke with a guy who was being sued by his neighbors because he'd loosed a round of 7mm Mauser in a "cleaning accident." The bullet went out his window, through the side of their house, and impacted their refrigerator, missing their daughter by less than a foot.