Safety Rules--How many GET it?

[Nnobby45]

I am a bit perplexed by the 45 degree reload comments. I can see it for a revolver, as the muzzle pointing up helps with ejection, but I can't see how it would be beneficial for an auto.

Back in Navy security training, the Gunny (Marines used to provide firearms instructors for USN security departments, back when) taught us to keep the 1911 on target throughout the reload. This greatly sped up target acquisition after the reload.

The handle of the pistol is pointed at the spare mag so it can go straight in. No more complicated than that.

Just standing there with gun pointed at the target with arm extended while you reload has flaws.

You can't move to cover while doing it and you're a good target.

Trying to find the mag. well with arms extended, unsupported, under adrenaline stress is a shaky propositioin (literally).

A SWAT instructor and team leader, as well as dept. firearms instructor taught me to reload by bringing my right elbow into my side to steady it with mag. well pointed at weak side mag. pouch.

Gun is just below eye level allowing you to look the mag. into the gun or see it peripherally while keeping track of the threat. Seat magazine and extend--or shoot without extending if you need to.

Kelly McCann (aka Jim Grover) showed on his video how to use two fingers of the support hand to shift the gun toward you so the thumb can reach the mag. release. Quick and positive.

Maintaining your shooting position with both arms extended so you can get back on target quicker? I wonder if anyone who advocates that has actually been in a gunfight.

Just my thoughts on the matter

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Just standing there with gun pointed at the target with arm extended while you reload has flaws.

Trying to find the mag. well with arms extended, unsupported, under adrenaline stress is a shaky propositioin (literally).

Maintaining your shooting position with both arms extended so you can get back on target quicker? I wonder if anyone who advocates that has actually been in a gunfight.

Nobody here as said the reload has to be done with the arms extended. But to answer your query, Clint Smith demos it in the vid that I cited on Page 1 of the thread and he has been in gunfights. Notice that by reloading in that manner, the gun isn't pointed somewhere off the range or into somebody's 2nd story window. The 14 year old honor student riding his bicycle six blocks away does not have to be endangered by a mag change that orients the gun in a manner that could result in him being shot.

I am not sure that being a firearms instructor or being in gun fights necessarily makes any claim particularly correct. As I stated, Ken Hackathorn (lots of experience and fights) advocates holding the gun in front of the face, pointed up and away and in keeping with the point of this thread, is an unsafe gun handling procedure.

 

[MLeake]

Thanks for the explanation, DNS. I do have oversized fingers, so I can manipulate the mag release (and the slide stop for that matter) without shifting grip. Also, I was taught to find the nose of the top round with my index finger, and guide it into the mag well. I practice this by feel quite often.

Nnobby45, I agree that use of cover should be maximized. Not sure I see that either method offers an advantage while moving rapidly. Will try it sometime this week and see for myself.

 

[TeamSinglestack]

I think a lot of folks don't really get it when it comes to the safety rules.

No, they don't.

 

[Brit]

One of the bonuses of carrying a Hi Cap pistol... You don't have to reload as much! And when you do, the aperture you are aiming for, is bigger than a single stack one.

"More is better, always"

 

[HiBC]

The reload technique I found in some magazine and adopted does have the handgun turned some,and muzzle up,but a full 90 degrees muzzle left is not the plan.An important part of the plan is finger out of the guard,along the slide. Handgun is positioned so I am looking through the triggerguard at my target with the right eye.Muscle memory,feel,and peripheral vision get the mag change done.
I have used this in falling plate competition without comment from the RSO.
DNS,do you ever holster a handgun?At some time,your foot or knee or thigh,or the person behind you when you bend over,will be covered.Do you only carry a hunting long arm pointed near vertical down at the ground,never port arms?I am not suggesting we be sloppy or careless,but I will accept muzzle up and away.At the same time,I will do what I can to avoid ND's
I think the greater point is,all systems of gun handling are fallible.We as humans cannot do anything perfectly every time.So we practice layers of redundancy in safety.
Unload it ,but because you may fail that,check it when you pick it up,but because you may fail that,keep it pointed in a safe direction,but because you may fail that,keep your finger off the trigger...etc.
Lets not get down to only one layer,"Don't worry,it ain't loaded" '

 

[AwlArtist]

I was taught from a very young age to treat every firearm as if it were loaded and never point it at anything you don't want to shoot and NEVER point it at another human, along with never walking in front of the person shooting.
I envy the know how of some people who, when handed an unfamiliar handgun, can, with a few flips of the finger, have it opened and checked in the matter of a few seconds.
Most of the time, I am unable to slide the top of a semi-auto because of my wrist, my own .25's, I can pull back far enough to make sure there is not one chambered.
If the gun is something I am unfamiliar with or large, I look without touching.
On the subject of shooting etiquette, I have been to a range with my brother and his friend, my sister, our kids... basically my entire family... and we were brought up with the 'rules'.
The 'other people' at the range were the ones that made us all nervous. Walking up to look at targets while someone down range was still shooting, stuff like that.
I have not been back there, my little girls were better behaved than most of the firearm owners that day.
The other time I was incredibly uncomfortable was when we were shooting at my sisters (same sister) and a 'friend' or theirs was there, waving the wrong end where ever he felt like it. My 2 nephews were there, 1 of my daughters, several of his kids.
I did mention it to him, he is somewhere in his 40's, as am I.
He told me that since he works in the local Remington factory and makes gun parts that he is an 'expert' and I have nothing to worry about.
My guns will stay in my trunk should I ever find him there again.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

DNS,do you ever holster a handgun?At some time,your foot or knee or thigh,or the person behind you when you bend over,will be covered.

Yep, I carry and I holster. Yep, things get covered and I have never claimed otherwise. My point is that we like to claim this dogmatic adherence to the 4 gun safety commandments as handed down by Jeff Cooper in stone when he came down from talking to some burning shrubbery on the mountain.

It was Jeff Cooper, not me, who set these up. It was Jeff Cooper and not me who said to never compromise the safety rules. So I fnd it rather amazing that in just two short videos that Jeff Cooper violates all four of his safety rules and that he repeatedly and consistently keeps scanning himself with a gun when he says that this should never be allowed to happen. He is obviously compromising the safety rules and violating the safety rules.

Do you see the ironic problem here? If the gun guru of safety rules is unable to follow his own rules, where does that leave the rest of us mere mortals?

As a regular gun handler, I violate the safety rules as well because and you note, holstering a gun quite often results in me scanning part of my leg. IWB holsters are even worse. You know I once tried a Pager Pal and the notion of scanning my "parts" while drawing really disturbed me.

I think the greater point is,all systems of gun handling are fallible.We as humans cannot do anything perfectly every time.

The real problem is not that we can't do anything perfectly every time, but that if we carry a gun in a holster on our hip or we do the canted 45 degree magazine changes that are taught to us by gun professionals, we will violate the safety rules virtually EVERY TIME. We teach people to violate the gun safety rules after we teach them the gun safety rules mantra and tell the students that they must not violate the rules.

However, the institutionality of the problem isn't just with teaching. We have all sorts of gun carrying gear, holsters, slings, etc. that if used properly will result in the violation of gun safety rules.

Think about it. It is really pretty stupid.

I am not suggesting we be sloppy or careless,but I will accept muzzle up and away.At the same time,I will do what I can to avoid ND's

Sure you will accept muzzle up and away as you aren't the one that is down range from the muzzle if the gun does discharge. Funny how that works. Basically, you are saying that you are okay with endangering others, especially when you have no direct knowledge of those who you may be endangering. You will endeavor not to let the gun discharge at that time, but at the same time you can't be bothered with keeping the muzzle oriented in a safe direction. It is a fairly hypocritical perspective, don't you think?

Lets not get down to only one layer,"Don't worry,it ain't loaded"

Given the hypocrisy of our current system between the rules, gun handling instruction, and gear, I don't know that "Don't worry, it ain't loaded" isn't just as valid to use for gun safety. In your case, you are willing to point the gun up and away while offer the one just one layer..."It's loaded, but I will try not to let it discharge and harm anyone down range." And that is a reality that I am fairly certain we are all guilty of participating in, though most of us probably have never voiced it to ourselves and try not to think about it.

If we were to actually follow the safety rules as dictated and without violating them, then our ability to handle and use firearms would become significantly restricted.

 

[Skans]

Anytime someone says that the gun isn't loaded as an excuse for pointing it in an unsafe direction they're proving that they don't get it.

I guess you can put me in the club of folks who "don't get it". Most of the time I agree with what John said above. However, there are times when I am training with a select few knowledgable and experienced people that we use our actual carry weapons for various drills. Every gun is checked and rechecked by everyone participating in the exercise to make sure that it is not loaded and magazines are left out of the guns. Yes, we take turns pointing real guns at each other and pulling the trigger, practicing various defensive moves and drawing our pistols to shoot an attacker.

So, although we do take safety very seriously, we "don't get it" when someone makes a blanket statement something like the one above. Just keep in mind: Rules don't guaranty safety. All rules aren't for everyone in every situation, and there is generally at least one exception to most rules.

 

[Tom Servo]

Just keep in mind: Rules don't guaranty safety. All rules aren't for everyone in every situation, and there is generally at least one exception to most rules.

Yours is a very specialized situation. There's a big difference between what you're describing and the guy I chewed out the other day for waving a rifle around, then refusing to show clear because, "I can tell it's unloaded by the weight."

In your case, there are clear ground rules, and the people present can all be trusted to be conscientious about them. Out and about in normal life, I'm a lot less trusting of Joe Six Pack.

 

[booker_t]

I was alone at an outdoor range the other day, far left bench of 6 stations, no partition between the stations. Shooting a mix of Ruger Mark III .22LR and Glock 20 10mm at 7yd.

Two older fellas (about 20 years my senior) came up to the line at the far right station. They pull out a slick-looking black AR-pistol with bipod, chambered in .22LR. Put it on their bench, and it's pointed directly left, down the line right at me.

I take a few steps back off the line before I say anything, wait a little bit and just watch them fiddle with the action, extending the bipod, get the ammo out.

Come up to them and ask if they "..intended to shoot that way," while pointing downrange. They give me puzzled looks and then realize which way the damn thing was pointing, turn it the right way, and sure enough, "It's okay it isn't loaded."

Made me feel so much better.

 

[Ruark]

Probably some of the most dangerous people around guns are young males in their 20's, especially in groups. They're so pumped up full of hormones and Hollywood machismo, safety rules can go out the window.

This happened to my cousin's 21 year old son several years ago. He worked on a construction crew - a summer job while he was in college - and he and some of his buddies liked to go out shooting on weekends. One Saturday morning they were all over at one guy's apartment getting ready to go shoot. There were 6 or 7 of them, and they proudly displayed all their guns on the kitchen table.

My cousin's son liked to horse around; he was always holding his .45 1911 up to his head, saying "hey, I'm going to shoot myself!" and dry-firing it. This time, though, he reached down and accidentally picked up his friend's identical .45 1911, which was always loaded, and blew his brains all over the living room. His friend was standing right in front of him watching him when it went off. Now, several years later, he's still getting psychiatric treatment, trying to get that picture out of his head.

Interestingly enough, my cousin taught his sons safe gun handling starting when they were 8-10 years old, firing single shot .22's, and he taught them VERY thoroughly, by the book, very strictly. Of course, I'm not saying you shouldn't teach kids safe gun handling, but never take it for granted: sometimes all the safety training in the world can't compete with the hormones of youth.

- Ruark

 

[Skans]

There's a big difference between what you're describing and the guy I chewed out the other day for waving a rifle around, then refusing to show clear because, "I can tell it's unloaded by the weight."

Yes, I completely agree with this and I don't mean to pick any arguments with anyone over this at all. This kind of thing puts a shiver down my spine. In fact I happeed to be present at a gun show where some idiot somehow snuck in a loaded (unknown to him) pistol (still don't know how he got it past the police), handed it to another idiot who pointed it down at idiot #1's foot pulled the trigger and shot the guy's foot. Neither of them thought to check to see if the gun was loaded. It was dead silent in that place for what seemed like several minutes after that.

Always, always, ALWAYS check the chamber or cylinder. I've picked up guns before that I thought were unloaded to find a round in the chamber....last time it was just a snap-cap, but still made me glad that I always check and recheck.

Oh, and as a general rule - just to be clear - I never point guns (or arrows) at anything that I can't fix or afford to buy under normal conditions.

 

[Nnobby45]

The 14 year old honor student riding his bicycle six blocks away does not have to be endangered by a mag change that orients the gun in a manner that could result in him being shot.

Don't understand what dangerous manner you're talking about. It isn't the one I described where the gun is held below eye level, but still elbow to arms length away from the body. Can't speak for everyone, but when I do my reloads in that manner, the gun is nowhere close to being pointed at my face.

Lock your elbow to your side and point the mag. well toward your mag. pouch (weak side) and you'll be concerned no longer.

Any gun discharging at that point, would put a bullet over Bubba's head closer than he'd be compfy with.

Agreed that any technique that does orient the gun in such a manner as you described, would be dangerous, indeed--whether it was during a reload or any for any other reason.

 

[DT Guy]

Most knowledgeable units use (at least) training barrels and flags in those circumstances, or better still use sim-guns. I wouldn't train that way with live weapons with anyone on earth, simply because someone, sometime is going to screw up.

As soon as you're 'too good' for the basic four, I start getting doubtful. That's where most accidents happen-

Larry

 

[Tom Servo]

Probably some of the most dangerous people around guns are young males in their 20's, especially in groups. They're so pumped up full of hormones and Hollywood machismo, safety rules can go out the window.

The problem with the current generation of new shooters is that their parents didn't own guns. The parents' generation didn't shoot, and many bought into the anti-gun argument. As such, we've got a certain 18-25 year old age group for whom guns have been a taboo item until recently.

Without parental or peer guidance, they're picking up their ideas of gun handling from movies and video games. The result is appalling.

Last week, I had to tell a guy he couldn't do his drawing drills on the lane because he was unsafe. His draw stroke involved the gun coming out of the holster, then sweeping 45 degrees to the right before coming up to target. He was a little belligerent, and he claimed that he was "trained" to do that. Trained by whom?

Youtube. Heaven help us.

I've lost count of the number of times I've had to explain that "there's no clip in it" doesn't qualify as unloaded, or that it's still not acceptable to sweep people with an "unloaded" gun. "The safety's on" is no excuse, either.

Now, I'm sure there are some younger members reading this who are bristling upon reading this. I know it's not all you guys; your generation is producing some great shooters. We had imbeciles in my generation, too.

The difference is that there's a lot more of you guys, and there don't seem to be enough responsible shooters to call the irresponsible ones out. It's a numbers game. Every generation polices its own to some extent--you guys just have a tougher hill to climb in doing it.

 

[shafter]

I always check and double check my firearms before handling. However, an unloaded gun is as harmless and a piece of wood. I don't mind a bit double checking it and then dry firing at spots on the wall or practicing different draws.

Even if I put it down and leave the room for a moment I'll check it again when I come back. The nice thing about revolvers is that you can check even without opening the cylinder.

 

[MLeake]

Checking without opening the cylinder...

... I take it you are looking for rims on the backside of the cylinder?

You can, but it only takes a second or two more to open the thing.

Then again, I broke my nose once, back in my teens, running into a glass door that I very well knew I had left open. I was the only one up and about in the house, and I had just opened that door a minute before.

I didn't know that my dad had got up long enough to wander out into the living room, close the door to the Florida room, then trundle back off to bed.

A windstorm blew up, and I saw the tarp flailing on the neighbor's Hobie Cat, so I went trotting around to go out the back way and secure his tarp.

Wham!!!

Amazingly, the glass didn't shatter. I left a nice nose smear on it, though. ER said broken nose, minor concussion.

But I just knew that door was open...

Shouldn't have done such a good job windexing it the day before.

Point being, even when you know something is a certain way, it never hurts to verify. It sometimes does hurt, not to verify.

 

[booker_t]

Ruark.... I could be wrong, but that sounds more like a case of stupid than hormonal youth.

 

[JohnKSa]

However, there are times when I am training with a select few knowledgable and experienced people that we use our actual carry weapons for various drills.

Post #20 on this thread deals with situations when the rules need to be broken. It's pretty obvious that there are times when it's necessary, but it should never become routine and we should do our best to implement other reasonable safeguards to prevent injury/death when we intentionally bypass a gun safety rule.

Can't speak for everyone, but when I do my reloads in that manner, the gun is nowhere close to being pointed at my face.

The quote you're responding to says nothing about the gun being pointed at your face--in fact no one on the thread has said anything about the gun being pointed at the shooter's face during a reload. It is about the gun being canted so that it's pointing upward at about a 45 degree angle--angled forward, upward and toward the shooter's weak side.