Reholstering Safetyless DAO's

[MLeake]

dashunde, how long have Cooper's Rules been around? Longer than Glocks and Kahrs, sure... But not longer than DA revolvers with slick action jobs, to include hammerless revolvers.

Your argument fails, unless "arbitrarily" limited to automatics. There really is no good reason to do what you are doing.

 

[Dashunde]

Read above.
Yes, I do limit my thoughts on the subject to only light DAO triggers - nothing else.

 

[DPris]

Dash,
You brought up a subject, people have discussed it with you, you've rejected opposing opinions, and you don't seem much interested in doing anything but sticking to your own view.

Many of us here have been holstering guns of all types for decades.
I carried a SIG P220 back in 1982 as a duty pistol. I've carried a Smith 4516 which did have a safety but I carried it off-safe, I've carried various Glocks off & on since 1988.

DA & DAO pistols certainly were around when Cooper condensed his four rules, those rules are every bit as valid today with what you feel are "new" designs as they were back then.

Bottom line is: You get in the habit of sticking your finger inside a trigger guard on holstering, you are creating a hazard that did not previously exist.
You are complicating what should be a simple process, you are creating an opportunity for stress or inattention to cause an AD.

You are NOT making the holstering process any safer.
If your idea did, don't you sorta think the pros would be teaching & using it?

Call Bruce Gray at Grayguns & ask him what he thinks of applying your idea to the DA and DAO SIGS he uses & teaches.
Call the SIG/SAUER Academy & ask them the same question.
Call your local Glock instructor, or attend a Glock shoot with a Glock company instructor, and ask him what he thinks of the idea.
Call Gunsite or Thunder Ranch & propose your idea.
Find four or five PDs in your area that authorize the guns in question, see how many agree with you.

And I won't even bother to bring up over 100 years of DA & DAO revolvers, since MLeake already has.

Like it or not, your idea is a bad one.
Denis

 

[myshoulderissore]

My only observation is from owning a Glock 17... I wouldn't dare attempt to try to get my finger in the extremely small space behind the trigger on anything but a disassembled pistol being cleaned. Knowing a round is chambered, no way I get close to it. Maybe it's just my giant sausage fingers, but I don't think my wife could or would either.

 

[Dashunde]

Whoa.. slow down guys, John put a simple fine (nearly mathmatical) point on it and I *almost* agree.
See the second half of post # 40

 

[derekb]

What happened to 'LOOK your gun into the holster?'

There's never any reason not to be looking at what you're doing, right?

 

[BigPapa4147]

When I reholster my Sig P250c, I put my firing hand thumb over the back of the slide so that the hammer cannot come back at all, thus it cant hit the firing pin and discharge.

 

[DPris]

For civilians, it's not as important to keep your eyes ahead while holstering, but as in my on-duty encounter, it's not always wise to divert your eyes from what's in front of you to watch your gun slide into its holster.
There were many occasions when I was a working man that I had to holster to deal with hands on instead, and it was beneficial to keep eyes forward.

Pretty much depends on what you're doing at the time.
If you're practicing armed encounters & presentations, you may not want to get in the habit of ignoring what's facing you while you holster.
If you're just re-holstering after plinking or targeting, different matter.
Denis

 

[Pianoguy]

Second the above about the Sig P250 and keeping finger on the hammer when holstering. The P250 has a long heavier DAO trigger like a revolver so it's not much like the ones poster is worried about.

I would just agree that you should keep the finger away from the trigger and take your time. Look at what your doing. if it's a decent holster that fits the gun it should slide in pretty easy with no problem. Like someone once wrote there's no medal for the fastest re-holstering.

I agree that some of the triggers are awfully light and easy to set off. it would not take much of a snag or inadvertent finger on the trigger to cause a problem if someone wasn't careful. Great for accuracy but otherwise a problem waiting to happen even if you train and get familiar with the weapon.

 

[TunnelRat]

This is one reason why I personally prefer a hammer fired weapon. When I holster my weapon I keep my thumb over the hammer. If I feel any push back on my thumb I know to stop and see what is moving the trigger. As a note I carry SA/DA weapons so the hammer has to move quite a bit in order for the weapon to fire. If I use a SAO hammer fired weapon I wouldn't really trust this method as the travel distance owuld be too short. For striker fired pistols I kept my finger along the slide above the trigger guard to make sure it wasn't twisting while holstering. For a striker fired pistol I would personally recommend a rigid holster, i.e. Kydex, where nothing could inadvertently fold into the trigger guard.

 

[trex1310]

Seems to me the answer to your problem is simple. If you don't
know how to safely reholster a gun, don't carry one until
you do.

 

[Dashunde]

And there ya go.. yet another drive-by snarky bs comment based on nothing at all.

I thank those of you who actually put a few seconds thought into the general idea I was trying to convey - and I mean that regardless of whether or not you agreed.

For the rest of you, who read only 1/10 of the posts, jumped on a bandwagon, tossed out a cliche'd insult, spoke in nothing but caps and bold, and generally contributed nothing... well, you know what you can do.

A funny thing...
My wife (a brilliant and insightful Micro Biologist) asked me yesterday (Sunday) why I was spending so much time here, and why I seemed irritated.
I said "here...read".
After reading the thread she scolded me for not following the rules to a "T", and asked me why I care about this forum when only a small few bother to read it all anyway.
Told me to go do the laundry...

 

[Nathan]

Plus 1 to post #43. I'm saying that because those are the folks revalidating the rules daily. I guess I'm saying the rules aren't old, just unchanged.

As for a reason no to do it:
1) your technique cannot be applied to all/most guns so now it creates a training exception, which is hard to apply correctly under stress. Ask anyone in mfg about what process variation equals.....it equals mistakes.

2) your technique is a fine motor skill. If taught, I believe under stress, some percentage of trainees would slap the front of the trigger by accident.

3) how is this technique better than looking first and putting your finger on the outside?

 

[Jimi]

I find it interesting that people are talking about re holstering as if they were blind or in a dark room. I would assume that one would use their eyes when possible in order to avoid an accidental pull of the trigger.

 

[MLeake]

Jimi, take another look at post #48 by DPris. For the reasons he cited, many SD trainers recommend learning to holster by feel.

 

[trex1310]

Most, if not all, the respondents seem to think it is a very bad idea
to put your finger inside the trigger guard when re-holstering. You
obviously don't agree and had your mind made up before posting.
To each his own. I hope you will be prepared when (or if) that one
mistake occurs and you blast a hole in your femoral artery. At any
rate I don't think your mind will be changed, so there isn't any
reason to participate further.

 

[btmj]

re-holstering

I understand that a law enforcement officer would need to be able to re-holster with one hand, without looking at the holster. Cops have to transition from a drawn weapon to arresting/cuffing, and I am sure there are lots of other situations.

But for an armed civilian...

There are some kinds of concealment holsters that just do not allow an easy reholster. An ankle holster is not an easy re-holster. Most IWB holsters are a challenge, especially with heavy loose clothing... to safely do it requires both hands and both eyes. A belly band is virtually impossible to reholster, you basically have to partially undress to do it. A pocket holster must be removed from the pocket, the weapon inserted, and then the holster+gun is put back in the pocket. Re-holstering a shoulder holster is definitely a two-handed operation.

If I am wearing an IWB holster at the 3 or 4 oclock position, with a heavy winter jacket... I am no way going to attempt to re-holster without first removing the coat, so I can clearly see and feel what I am doing.

 

[MyGreenGuns]

Since you asked a question, I will answer.

I'm wondering what the rest of you - who actually carry a safetyless DAO - do about it?

I have carried a Springfield XD9 Fullsize for a few years. My holstering procedure is as follows:
THE GRIP: Holding the weapon in my right hand, thumb hooked upwards, index finger along the slide.
THE MOTION:From below your conceal garments, drag hooked thumb up seam of pants, directly below holster. As the holster is revealed, LOOK! My thumb holds clothes away from holster and I lower the gun into the holster with my middle>pinky fingers (hand does not move). After the trigger has entered the confines of the holster I push the gun firmly into the holster by pushing on the back of the slide with my thumb.

I was also worried about the gun discharging during the holstering process. I did not feel better about it until I had practiced this with an UNLOADED/cocked gun a few dozen times.

I have read the entire thread. I respectfully disagree with your actions.

First: If you are worried about an Negligent discharge from a DAO with a light trigger, you might want to aquire a gun with a heavier trigger pull. (An unintentional discharge with your finger inside the trigger guard IS negligent, not accidental)

Second: Putting your finger inside the trigger guard is adding a (potentially lethal) variable that was not previously there. If you holstered a weapon around me with your finger in the trigger guard, you would be firmly reminded of the four rules. If you did it twice, you are banned for life. I hate to repeat it, The rules are there for a reason.

Third: I understand that LEO may need to blindly holster their weapon. The average citizen (you, me, most ppl on this forum) has no need to blindly holster. When I leave for the day, I put my loaded gun in the holster, then put the holster on my belt. When I am at the range, my gun stays on the bench until I am ready to leave. I am in no hurry when I leave and it only takes a second to look at what you are doing. If you had just used it in self defense, the LEOs are not going to want you holstering it, they will ask you to set it down.

After reading the thread she scolded me for not following the rules to a "T"

^Listen to your wife. Please.

 

[DPris]

Can't necessarily make the dogmatic assumption that a "regular" citizen won't need to re-holster quickly, with one hand, and/or without looking.

Cuffing & hands-on subduing aside, there are other situations where you might not find it either feasible or advisable to take your attention off what's in front of you, or use both hands to re-holster.

What to do with the defensive handgun AFTER it's been used, or AFTER a threat has de-escalated to non-deadly-force levels, is one of the most ignored aspects of carrying a handgun for personal defense.

Just because you're not a cop, don't wait till you find yourself in the middle of something that no longer justifies that gun in your hand, but does require immediate action of another type, to understand the importance of knowing how to safely & QUICKLY get it out of your hand.

People tend to put great emphasis on gear & techniques for getting the gun OUT in a hurry, but almost never for speed & efficiency in getting it back IN.

Denis

 

[btmj]

Just because you're not a cop, don't wait till you find yourself in the middle of something that no longer justifies that gun in your hand, but does require immediate action of another type, to understand the importance of knowing how to safely & QUICKLY get it out of your hand.

...Can't disagree with that, but I am not sure what to do about it. If the only way I can carry on a given day is to use some sort of deep concealment such as a belly band or the "smart carry", I don't see a good solution. I'll just have to think of something. Maybe I will put the gun down on the grass, maybe I will hand it to my wife. Maybe I will drop the mag, cycle the round out of the chamber, put the mag back in, and stick it in my pocket. I don't know.

It is sort of like worrying about what you would do if the situation called for a rifle, and all you have is a concealed carry handgun. Since most of us are not going to conceal an AK or AR on a regular basis, there is no real point in agonizing over it.