Reholstering Safetyless DAO's

[Tom Servo]

I expected the "sky is falling" crowd to uproar loudly at the idea of violating the sacred trigger guard, but the fact is I'm damn comfortable with the practice and will no way in hell be repeatedly re-holstering over and over without keeping track of that trigger.

Dashunde, I'd like to ask two things of you. The first is that you use more temperate language.

The second is that you consider the reasons for our objections to your practice. The idea of keeping one's finger out of the trigger guard is enshrined in one of the four fundamental rules of gun safety. I've seen injuries that occur from failure to follow that rule several times. They are not pretty.

That rule is so deeply ingrained in our consciousness as shooters that we react with great alarm when we see (or hear of) it being broken. We don't easily accept deviations from it, and anyone who proposes doing so must bear a fairly heavy burden in proving that they're not doing something potentially dangerous.

Frankly, I don't know a single RSO, instructor, or shooter in general who would not cry foul if they saw you doing that at the range, and for good reason. You're placing yourself in harm's way.

 

[Dashunde]

The idea of keeping one's finger out of the trigger guard is enshrined in one of the four fundamental rules of gun safety.

While that is sound advise, it does not completely hold water anymore for me for two reasons:
Its prior to light DAO trigger systems without any form of mechanical safety to lock/block the trigger.
Its prior to iwb concealed carry as we now know it using those pistols.

My suggestion is just a work-around to deal with a singular shortcoming of a otherwise trustworthy trigger system on a few specific pistols.

I find it interesting that many of you are comfortable manipulating the assorted levers on modern pistols and doing all of the other things that require concentration and finger control, including the dreaded act of decocking a loaded 1911, but you wont trust the tip of your finger to nudge up against the back of a DAO trigger during reholstering.

Its a rock and a hard spot for me...
If my DAO's had a manual safety I would use it and never trespass the trigger guard.
If my DAO's had a manual safety I wouldn't carry them - I probably would not have bought them in the first place.

 

[MLeake]

Again, get a hammer fired DA or DAO. Thumb on back of the hammer:

1. Will detect any tendency for the hammer to be pushed rearward, allowing you to stop pushing down and to identify the problem;

2. Prevent the hammer from coming back far enough to actuate;

3. Enable you to prevent the slide from being pushed out of battery when holstering. (This is one reason why thumb on back of slide is recommended for most striker guns, too; frame mounted thumb safeties prevent rearward slide movement - except in cases like the FNX - but slide mounted do not, nor do decockers.)

Your technique is unlikely to win any fans here. I have not met an instructor who has ever advocated it. I think you would be better off with a hammer fired auto, or a revolver.

 

[Dashunde]

What DAO has a hammer and no manual safety? Like the LCP.

On a side note, I sure do wish Ruger had made the LC9 simple, just like the LCP.

 

[MLeake]

LC9
SIG P239 or P22x DAK
Beretta PX4
S&W 3rd Gen (used)
Seecamp

List goes on; not hard to find. Many common DA/SA guns have DAO siblings. In some cases, manufacturers offer conversion kits.

 

[Marlin009]

A very bad habit IMO but you have apparently convinced yourself that it is not despite violating one of the, yes, sacred rules of safe gun handling.

Good luck.

As Tom Servo pointed out, not only would it generate a "foul" cry from others,
it would, and should, get you booted from the range.

 

[RC20]

I expected the "sky is falling" crowd to uproar loudly at the idea of violating the sacred trigger guard, but the fact is I'm damn comfortable with the practice and will no way in hell be repeatedly re-holstering over and over without keeping track of that trigger.

I often wonder if the man who killed my father with his botched work was able to live with killing two people and the shattering of two familes lives. One of those familes had just lost their mother.

I hope when they lock the thread you reflect on things, cool down and change.

 

[MLeake]

RC20, I don't mean to make light of your loss... It is just that, without any context or background, I have no idea how it relates to this thread. Could you explain the linkage? You might have a point, but I can't tell without context.

 

[Sparks1957]

A very bad habit IMO but you have apparently convinced yourself that it is not despite violating one of the, yes, sacred rules of safe gun handling.

Indeed. Pretty scary, in my opinion. I just hope no one gets hurt eventually. Glad he doesn't shoot at my range.

 

[MLeake]

On a side note, what is complex about an LC9? I've only shot one, once, but it seemed straightforward to me.

 

[DPris]

Dash,
You can rationalize it in your mind all day long, but you won't find support for a bad idea here, and if you're rejecting advice why bother to ask at all?

Keeping your finger out of the trigger guard is an extremely sensible practice derived from many years of people violating it, with unhappy results.
That includes on the way out of the holster as well as on the way back in.

You may think you're controlling the trigger and therefore "safer", but you're not.
All it takes it one time to lose track of that finger, have it end up on the wrong side of the trigger (in front), and you may lose a chunk of your leg or foot.

People seldom consider that being able to quickly re-holster is important, I found out how hard that can be while wrestling with a guy over a shotgun one night at work. Even in an exposed duty holster, it took several tries to put my .38 away so I could have both hands to use. Under stress, you won't have the time to worry about getting your finger in the right spot, you're just as likely to get it in front of the trigger as behind it if your attention's elsewhere, and you're simply creating a hazard by doing it your way when none existed previously.

If you're going to be insistent, it's your skin & your problem.
But, you won't find support either here or with any competent instructor anywhere else.

I've carried concealed handguns professionally & personally for over 35 years. I watch the condition of my leather, and nothing gets into the triggerguard, any part of me, any part of the holster, or any part of my clothing, when the gun goes into it.

Have you tried just leaving your trigger finger outside the guard, laying against the side of the guard, as you start holstering? Should keep your shirt or jacket from any contact with the trigger.

Denis

 

[Ralph Allen]

Quality holster, no el cheapo's should solve your worries.
Ralph

 

[WildBill45]

You cannot make a firearm totally safe, as the function of the firearm is to be dangerous or it wouldn't work.

Practice with whatever you have unloaded over and over until you feel that you are safe. holster the gun then put the holster with gun inside it already on, or whatever technique works for you. Training is the best key, and civilians have to go out on their own to do it, and they should, or leave the gun on their nightstand! If can't drive safely stay home, same-same for firearms...

 

[Mike1234]

LATELY...

...I've been buying handguns ONLY with manual and drop safeties. After I dropped a Kel-Tec P-11 with no manual nor drop-safety and it discharged... I became far more careful. Also, after I've seen some NDs into pockets or holsters with no manual safeties on pistols I've decided I DO want both safeties. I don't care for mag safeties though.

 

[JohnKSa]

Unintentional discharges due to trigger snags are pretty rare. They account for maybe 1 out of 100 unintentional discharges.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=114287

It's hard to say categorically if putting your finger in the triggerguard behind the trigger guard is more or less safe than risking a trigger snag. It is, however, possible to say that human error accounts for about 3/4 of unintentional discharges which suggests that perhaps the small risk of a snag is less dangerous than intentionally putting your finger into the trigger guard of a loaded gun.

 

[B.N.Real]

Look down and pay attention when you reholster it.

Not a time to be looking up,talking about whatever you just did that caused you to draw the gun.

Fingers away from the trigger,shirt and jacket away from the holster and if someone has a smart comment about you being careful,tell them to shut the congress up.

 

[Mike1234]

It's not my finger I'm worried about... it's other things that can push against the trigger that worry me... a hair comb, for instance. Also... just dropping the gun is a very real possibility. These things DO HAPPEN.

 

[Dashunde]

Keeping your finger out of the trigger guard is an extremely sensible practice derived from many years of people violating it, with unhappy results.

True and part of why I brought the subject up - for discussion, not blowhard capital/bold letter chastising.
My entire point hinges on the fact that this type of trigger system did not exist during all those many years when those rules were developed, and if it did I wonder if the rules would be a little different.

People seldom consider that being able to quickly re-holster is important, I found out how hard that can be while wrestling with a guy over a shotgun one night at work. Even in an exposed duty holster, it took several tries to put my .38 away so I could have both hands to use. Under stress, you won't have the time to worry about getting your finger in the right spot, you're just as likely to get it in front of the trigger as behind it if your attention's elsewhere, and you're simply creating a hazard by doing it your way when none existed previously.

Finally, a good point that isnt based on "just because it’s a rule".

I often wonder if the man who killed my father with his botched work was able to live with killing two people and the shattering of two familes lives.

Its completely shameful to try to draw some asinine correlation between your fathers death and my thoughts on reholstering.
Way off center, and very uncool.

 

[Tom Servo]

Finally, a good point that isnt based on "just because it’s a rule"

You're implying that Rule #3 is somehow arbitrary. It is not.

The four rules come from experience (much of it tragic and bitter), and they exist because they work. Every negligent discharge can be traced to a failure to follow one or more of those rules. They are valid, and they are necessary.

If it were arbitracy, Rule #3 wouldn't be universally taught, followed, and enforced by the entire gun culture. It would belong to only certain schools of shooting, or it would have been left behind altogether.

We're not being blowhards. You must understand that you're asking us to disregard something we've all been taught to be vital and essential. Something like that requires a very, very novel and watertight argument.

 

[Dashunde]

We're not being blowhards. You must understand that you're asking us to disregard something we've all been taught to be vital and essential. Something like that requires a very, very novel and watertight argument.

Tom, not all are/were blowing hard, just a few ranting and spewing insults without considering the argument or reasoning presented.
I didnt mean that the rule should be disgarded by all, just debated a bit as it applies to a specific trigger system.
I wholeheartedly agree with the rule and not violating the guard on any other type of trigger.

It's hard to say categorically if putting your finger in the triggerguard behind the trigger guard is more or less safe than risking a trigger snag. It is, however, possible to say that human error accounts for about 3/4 of unintentional discharges which suggests that perhaps the small risk of a snag is less dangerous than intentionally putting your finger into the trigger guard of a loaded gun.

A very fair and open-minded assement of it all.
I'm inclinded to agree... much to my own dismay