Pentagon Confirms Move to 6.8mm

[davidsog]

If 5.56 is obsolete,

It is obsolete according to experience on the battlefield and the Small Arms Survey.

The service has been employing its standard-issue M4 carbine since the 1960s while steadily making improvements to the system over time. But now, the rifle’s 5.56 mm round may not be able to penetrate enemies’ newly developed body armor, officials said.

During a Senate Armed Services airland subcommittee hearing last year, Sen. Tom Cotton, R-Ark., noted that “everyone from Russia and China, to Hezbollah” and the Islamic State is employing advanced armor that “risks making the 5.56 round essentially obsolete.”

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2018/2/1/pentagon-takes-new-look-at-rifles-ammo

“Right now, the feedback looks like we are going to a 6.8 mm round,” Army Chief of Staff Gen. Mark Milley said recently.

The service has a list of its top six modernization priorities and “soldier lethality” is one of the items. The most high-profile program in that category is the squad automatic rifle. Army Secretary Mark Esper at the Association of the United States Army annual conference — while promising the service is speeding up the way it does acquisition — singled out the program as one that would see prototypes in the near future.

“The bottom line is that we are committed to a new rifle,” Milley told reporters.

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine...army-serious-about-fielding-6-8-caliber-round

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Did you not understand the question? Because you didn’t answer it and you just posted the same thing you’ve already posted in this thread - and it didn’t address any of the concerns raised the last time you posted it either.

And by the way “risks making the 5.56 round essentially obsolete” is not the same thing as “5.56 is obsolete.” The first is a hypothetical. The second is an objective statement you are unable to support with fact.

 

[rickyrick]

“...would see prototypes in the near future.” Prototypes does not equal a weapon ready for issue: might be close to it, or it could be just the first steps of a long journey. Nothing in the quotes indicate a final product or is there any confirmation of 5.56 obsolescence; all that’s stated on the subject is opinion, and it’s written in a manner that the reader can understand as opinion.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

And oddity of oddities, Russia and China, two of the countries supposedly fielding body armor that risks making 5.56 obsolete are fielding 5.xx caliber rifles that are very similar to 5.56. As is every single NATO ally. For that matter, even if Gen. Milley can wish this rifle into existence, less than 100,000 soldiers will receive it (again, per Gen. Milley’s own statements) - so the U.S. Army will also continue to use 5.56mm for the majority of its troops.

Strange we have this impending obsolescence of 5.56 that makes this new wonder rifle a necessity; but no other country in the world recognizes this and even the United States doesn’t deem the wonder rifle a necessity for all combat troops.

I mean just looking at active divisions, off the top of my head you have the 82nd, the 101st, the Big Red One, and Third Infantry. 86,000 rifles isn’t going to outfit the TO&E of even those four units, let alone infantry in other units. And that’s assuming you deploy every rifle you buy with none sitting in the armory to handle wear & tear.

 

[davidsog]

Did you not understand the question? Because you didn’t answer it and you just posted the same thing you’ve already posted in this thread - and it didn’t address any of the concerns raised the last time you posted it either.

And by the way “risks making the 5.56 round essentially obsolete” is not the same thing as “5.56 is obsolete.” The first is a hypothetical. The second is an objective statement you are unable to support with fact.

I understood the question obviously....

167000 rifles for the Department of Defense is not sustenance level for more than a couple of years. End of Story.

Prototypes does not equal a weapon ready for issue:

There are several stages of prototyping in engineering. The prototyping you are thinking of ends in 2021.

As is every single NATO ally. For that matter, even if Gen. Milley can wish this rifle into existence, less than 100,000 soldiers will receive it (again, per Gen. Milley’s own statements) - so the U.S. Army will also continue to use 5.56mm for the majority of its troops.

Miley does not have to wish anything into existence nor is this his project, the rifles are here and the US Army has moved past the first stage well into the program leading to adoption. This project is a warfighter initiated project and is the culmination of a grass roots effort that began with George Bush initiative to link Operators with Engineers/Scientist.


Just like anything....SOCOM and the US Army's First Responders will be outfitted first. They will also be the ones who conduct the Iterative prototyping. That stage can last up to 8 years but can also be finished at anytime sooner.

It also allows the logistics and manufacturer to gain experience as well.

5.56mm is obsolete and is being phased out.

It will continue to serve until replaced just like the Brewster Buffalo, Grant Tank, S-Boats, and any other piece of obsolete equipment forced into wartime service by necessity of logistics.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

davidsog, we have been through this song and dance before. Until the new rifle is actually here, it is nothing but a bunch more obsolete saber rattling and chest thumping. That you have some new quotes doesn't change the fact that every time the military starts to go through this mess, it falters. Eventually, the 5.56 will be replaced, no doubt, but whether or not it is this time and if this time (if it occurs) is even remotely on time is just something for the future. There is continually big talk about how these things are supposed to happen, but like crying WOLF, these things rarely come to positive fruition. The proof is in the pudding, not in all the obsolete saber rattling.

 

[ed308]

This article says 250,000 weapons..

The Army says it has the option to make a selection during the first 27-month prototype phase and award a final contract. The service says it wants to buy up to 250,000 weapons — a combination of rifles and automatic rifles — and up to 150 million rounds of the new 6.8mm ammunition.

https://www.armytimes.com/off-duty/gearscout/irons/2019/08/30/the-army-just-got-closer-to-ditching-the-m4-and-saw-for-a-next-generation-weapon/

 

[rickyrick]

Consistency in these media articles is hard to find, they all have different numbers and timelines. What can be gleaned from the articles, the Army intends to field a new rifle, a new squad machine gun, the bullet diameter will be 6.8mm, there are three companies with prototypes and the program is intended on drastically increasing the lethality of ground troops. Good news for the most lethal army in the world.

But, what we don’t know is if this program will be successful or will it fail ... as many trials do fail. Getting closer, but not a done deal. The reason we have trials is because is to see what fails. We all know that government always gets it right. The government always meets timelines. The same government that adopted the most substandard individual weapon in history and has allowed it to remain in inventory for several decades.

 

[davidsog]

but a bunch more obsolete saber rattling

Maybe to you but having experienced the obsolescence of 5.56mm first hand as well as see the beginning of the program to change it...

It is a long way from just saber rattling and there is a real desire from the warfighter to get rid of 5.56mm in the US Army and the powers that be....

 

[stagpanther]

After reading all this I can only say one thing with certainty--there's money to be made on betting on one's belief.

 

[rickyrick]

Maybe obsolete isn’t the correct term; my perception of the term is that it means no longer in current use, not available to anymore.
Better terms:
Ineffective
Underpowered
Poor performance
Less than optimal
Etc

There’s electric cars around and the technology is becoming available but the gasoline car is far from being obsolete.


The current ammunition is still 5.56, they are working on something better, but it hasn’t been replaced yet, so it it’s a far stretch to say it’s obsolete yet. In 2021, 2022 or 2023... maybe. If these trials fail, the 5.56 will still be around.
When the new cartridge and weapon becomes a reality, you could say it’s becoming obsolete on day one, because at some point in the future it will be replaced.

 

[volkstrm]

It's about time!! Much better round. And then we should also go with a piston upper on all the M16/M4's. Replace all the DSI uppers with pistons uppers in 6.8. I would also like to see the M17 in 357sig not 9mm. I know that's not going to happen.

 

[44 AMP]

I mean just looking at active divisions, off the top of my head you have the 82nd, the 101st, the Big Red One, and Third Infantry. 86,000 rifles isn’t going to outfit the TO&E of even those four units,

Just how big are those divisions??

I remember Army divisions being about 10,000 men, and the first internet source I looked at said 10-16,000, so, four divisions, even at 16,000, that is 64,000, and every single one of them doesn't get a rifle, so, I think 86,000 rifles would pretty well cover them, though they'd probably be happy with a larger reserve...

We have some statements from some brass saying where they want to go, and that tests & trials are underway.

Until we get a statement about where we have gone next, its all just chasing our tails around smoke and mirrors.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

You’re correct that modern infantry divisions are smaller than I’d figured; but the point remains that lots of U.S. soldiers in direct combat jobs will still be armed with 5.56 whether they purchase 86,000, 100,000, or 250,000. And we’re still a long way off from making even a SCAR-level purchase of any rifle.

Heck, right now the cartridge isn’t even decided. It could be a cased, telescoped cartridge; a hybrid steel, brass case; an LSAT-style caseless round.

It took from 2004 (initial solicitation) to 2009 (75th Rangers get 600 rifles) for SCAR. Now we’re going to introduce revolutionary technology on optics, powered rail, cartridge, barrel life, recoil management, and heat management - and we’ll do it in two years with an Army wide roll out of tens of thousands of rifles? Color me skeptical.

 

[davidsog]

We saw M14's used for long after they were phased out as well as every other rifle in the History of the US Army during a transition period. There will be an overlap where both the new 6.8mm weapons and 5.56mm will be service. The 5.56mm going to the support units with those most likely to encounter the enemy on the battlefield having priority for the new 6.8mm. That does not mean the US Army is holding onto 5.56mm because it is great. Just like every other war, some folks had to soldier on with less than steller gear.

Army wants its Next Generation rifle ASAP, but it still has to buy a bunch of M4s to keep soldiers shooting

The timeline is tight, by weapons development standards, as the Army expects the companies to have a mature weapon, possibly ready for fielding, in just over two years, or late 2021, Lt. Col. Jason Bohannon, head of PEO Soldier, Crew Served Weapons, told Military Times in January.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your...buy-a-bunch-of-m4s-to-keep-soldiers-shooting/

 

[stagpanther]

Obsolete? sure, just like 9mm pistol cartridges are obsolete.

The use of the word obsolete means it's completely outclassed by better technology and no longer serves any real purpose. That will likely never happen with the 5.56. All that said--is an intense effort under way to develop--and ultimately field-- a new class off weapon and cartridge that will set a new paradigm for the combat carbine and LR light machine gun? It sure looks like it, and I sure hope they succeed, but that's still a far stretch from having battle-ready masses of weapons ready to go in just a few years. Money isn't made by being efficient in the weapons procurement process these days.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Also, not directed to anyone in particular, but bolding, coloring, and using bigger font doesn’t convince people of things they already read in normal font and didn’t believe then.

 

[ripnbst]

This round sounds more or less like a .270 WIN short.

 

[2damnold4this]

Maybe to you but having experienced the obsolescence of 5.56mm first hand as well as see the beginning of the program to change it...

Did you shoot someone with a 5.56 and have the rounds stopped by advanced body armor?

 

[davidsog]

Did you shoot someone with a 5.56 and have the rounds stopped by advanced body armor?

No, we averaged 8 rounds the first tour with green tip in the house to put a target not wearing body armor down.

Outside the house they simply out-ranged us.

The advanced body armor is showing up on the battle field. In fact you can order it online.....

https://www.ar500armor.com/ar500-ar...mor/polyethylene-level-iii-armor-10-x-12.html