Observation on Indonesia
- Thread starter Danindetroit
- Start date
Actually it's not BS. like in all things the poor are at the bottom of the list
and if lucky "may" receive 3 cents on each dollar value sent. Sad, but
it's life in many countries, much of what is being sent now in a rush will
be of no use, some will be sold on black market, etc.
The US Govt is now far from being the responsible one. Everyone in Europe seems to be able to give a significant amount:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3144332a12,00.html
Hell, Pfizer alone donated $35m in cash and medical supplies..
Hey Dan, where did you find your recent data on US Aid? The most recent I found was 2000: http://www.usaid.gov/fani/ch05/humanitarianaid03.htm which pegs it at 33%.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3144332a12,00.html
Hell, Pfizer alone donated $35m in cash and medical supplies..
Hey Dan, where did you find your recent data on US Aid? The most recent I found was 2000: http://www.usaid.gov/fani/ch05/humanitarianaid03.htm which pegs it at 33%.
Danindetroit
New member
I was 7% off, from your figure, which is 4 years old, my post #13 tells where I got it from. Cnn, the 29th, around 6 to 8 I am not exactly sure. I turned it off, because It is always the same, we gave too little, it came too late, there were only 5,000 individuals shooting at you you could make it, no we have no roads to get the supplies, where they are needed, can't you just teleport them their. The bombs only killed 50 people, how come all the aid workers are leaving.
ps the money I heard about was from the Govt only, and the US had given much more than any other Govt. It does not take in to account private donations.
ps the money I heard about was from the Govt only, and the US had given much more than any other Govt. It does not take in to account private donations.
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Desert Dog
New member
I can't believe some of what I am reading here... This picture says it all:
Those are people there. It does not matter if they are Muslim, Christian, black or white, young or old. This is one of the worst natural disasters ever. No matter what these people in these countries believe, the world as a whole needs to come to their aid.
Those are people there. It does not matter if they are Muslim, Christian, black or white, young or old. This is one of the worst natural disasters ever. No matter what these people in these countries believe, the world as a whole needs to come to their aid.
In the spirit of true charity I heard yesterday that private donation was set to overtake what our government is sending as a line of credit.
Most irritating is the government aid from our public purse that has been going to countries that should, and are more than able to, take care of themselves.
As surely as the death toll was going to be far higher than was initially announced immediately after these places were hit, I believe the death toll is going to be far higher than the 100K+ currently mentioned - even if no disease epidemic strikes.
Most irritating is the government aid from our public purse that has been going to countries that should, and are more than able to, take care of themselves.
As surely as the death toll was going to be far higher than was initially announced immediately after these places were hit, I believe the death toll is going to be far higher than the 100K+ currently mentioned - even if no disease epidemic strikes.
Short memory
"I for one would like to see US aid continue to the people, and bash the livin fool out of any tin horns who attempt to take food/medicine/shelter away from those in need."
One word: SOMALIA. Ring a bell?
I, for one, could not care less if all of Mogadishu was swept away. Let their warlords rescue, rebuild and restore. Consider it a Monument of Third World Will and the Triumph of Indigenous Peoples over Decadent Western Imperialism. I want a seat for THAT show.....
"You can bet that the poor people whose families have been killed and who are left homeless will never benefit from the foreign aid money."
Not "BS;" it is, unfortunately, true. Examples? The above Somalia, where warlords seized relief supplies, killed the relief workers and used the aid to maintain their private armies and control the populace.
More? Done. North Korea. US supplies were repackaged to falsely indicate an NK source; its citizens are told that NK is the wealthiest nation on earth. As even listening to foreign broadcasts is forbidden, most believe the lie.
How about the Sudan? Uganda? Zimbabwe? If dictators and warlords control the territory, they control the goods flowing into and out of that territory, unless the aid and those distributing it are protected by a greater military force. This then becomes an Affront to Sovereignty, and we wouldn't want that, would we? They might not love us! :barf:
"This is one of the worst natural disasters ever. No matter what these people in these countries believe, the world as a whole needs to come to their aid."
The operative term being "the world AS A WHOLE." This is NOT solely our problem or our responsibility. Arrogance, ignorance and blatant stupidity all have a price. Countries which rim the Ring of Fire, which depend upon coastal industries such as fishing and tourism to support their economies, and which have large populations on said coasts have a duty to monitor their shores for such dangers. NONE of the affected countries made any such effort.
Their reckless indifference is not OUR crisis; it is theirs. THAT is a major factor in terms of the respective moral obligations.
" 'First of all, where are the oil rich Muslim countries like Saudia Arabia?'
What does it matter?"
Because it was largely MUSLIM countries which were devastated; said "oil rich Muslim countries" are much closer to some of the devastated areas than WE are, because they can AFFORD to, and because it's time they stopped leaching off the West. Next question.
WE saved Kuwait and, sequentially, SA. What thanks did we get? The troops which saved those nations were restricted in their dress and actions, and prevented from practicing their religion ON BASE. Crude oil prices were jacked up - repeatedly. SA wealth supports the organizations that aid and abet Muslim terrorists, including providing bounties to the families of suicide bombers. Is that your idea of humanitarian aid?
Let them take that wealth and their deep concern for their co-religionists and help rebuild the shattered countries. Think what a beacon of hope such Muslim largesse would be; a tangible manifestation of the Benificence and Power of Allah. In short - let "those oil rich Muslim countries" put their money where their mouths are.
Anyone waiting for THAT to happen?
"I for one would like to see US aid continue to the people, and bash the livin fool out of any tin horns who attempt to take food/medicine/shelter away from those in need."
One word: SOMALIA. Ring a bell?
I, for one, could not care less if all of Mogadishu was swept away. Let their warlords rescue, rebuild and restore. Consider it a Monument of Third World Will and the Triumph of Indigenous Peoples over Decadent Western Imperialism. I want a seat for THAT show.....
"You can bet that the poor people whose families have been killed and who are left homeless will never benefit from the foreign aid money."
Not "BS;" it is, unfortunately, true. Examples? The above Somalia, where warlords seized relief supplies, killed the relief workers and used the aid to maintain their private armies and control the populace.
More? Done. North Korea. US supplies were repackaged to falsely indicate an NK source; its citizens are told that NK is the wealthiest nation on earth. As even listening to foreign broadcasts is forbidden, most believe the lie.
How about the Sudan? Uganda? Zimbabwe? If dictators and warlords control the territory, they control the goods flowing into and out of that territory, unless the aid and those distributing it are protected by a greater military force. This then becomes an Affront to Sovereignty, and we wouldn't want that, would we? They might not love us! :barf:
"This is one of the worst natural disasters ever. No matter what these people in these countries believe, the world as a whole needs to come to their aid."
The operative term being "the world AS A WHOLE." This is NOT solely our problem or our responsibility. Arrogance, ignorance and blatant stupidity all have a price. Countries which rim the Ring of Fire, which depend upon coastal industries such as fishing and tourism to support their economies, and which have large populations on said coasts have a duty to monitor their shores for such dangers. NONE of the affected countries made any such effort.
Their reckless indifference is not OUR crisis; it is theirs. THAT is a major factor in terms of the respective moral obligations.
" 'First of all, where are the oil rich Muslim countries like Saudia Arabia?'
What does it matter?"
Because it was largely MUSLIM countries which were devastated; said "oil rich Muslim countries" are much closer to some of the devastated areas than WE are, because they can AFFORD to, and because it's time they stopped leaching off the West. Next question.
WE saved Kuwait and, sequentially, SA. What thanks did we get? The troops which saved those nations were restricted in their dress and actions, and prevented from practicing their religion ON BASE. Crude oil prices were jacked up - repeatedly. SA wealth supports the organizations that aid and abet Muslim terrorists, including providing bounties to the families of suicide bombers. Is that your idea of humanitarian aid?
Let them take that wealth and their deep concern for their co-religionists and help rebuild the shattered countries. Think what a beacon of hope such Muslim largesse would be; a tangible manifestation of the Benificence and Power of Allah. In short - let "those oil rich Muslim countries" put their money where their mouths are.
Anyone waiting for THAT to happen?
A pox on all anyone who wants to turn this into a religious/political football.
When the counting is done, there will be close to 200,000 HUMAN BEINGS killed in this disaster (a large percentage of them children)...A NATURAL DISASTER...not some screw up by a religious or political megalomaniac nor the vindictive tantrum of some psychopathic diety. Anyone who thinks that this is God's payback on the radicalized Muslim world is as goofy as a sh1thouse rat.
We should give because we are able to give and its the proper thing to do; not because we might curry favor with some political or religious sect. Humans should spend a little more time helping each other and less time rationalizing reasons for killing one another.
Re. the ill informed comments of the Norwegian ambassador to the UN...I didn't see ANY aid flown from Norway into Florida during that states summer in hell this year. He needs to shut his pie hole.
When the counting is done, there will be close to 200,000 HUMAN BEINGS killed in this disaster (a large percentage of them children)...A NATURAL DISASTER...not some screw up by a religious or political megalomaniac nor the vindictive tantrum of some psychopathic diety. Anyone who thinks that this is God's payback on the radicalized Muslim world is as goofy as a sh1thouse rat.
We should give because we are able to give and its the proper thing to do; not because we might curry favor with some political or religious sect. Humans should spend a little more time helping each other and less time rationalizing reasons for killing one another.
Re. the ill informed comments of the Norwegian ambassador to the UN...I didn't see ANY aid flown from Norway into Florida during that states summer in hell this year. He needs to shut his pie hole.
False assumptions abound....
Like most Americans who have traveled little and know even less, the tone of some here seems to blame the natives of Aceh province for being part of a "dictatorship", "Muslims" - who apparently have earned death and destruction from God - maybe some Caucasian version of God and generally not worthy of our donations.
If those harping about this knew anything at all about this part of the world, they would understand that 99.9% of those poor people are simply trying to exist from day to day. They are not part of some Muslim conspiracy to kill us. In fact, the residents of Aceh have been the subject of martial law and other government sanctions for their separatist sympathies for several years.
Couching every issue as "us vs. them" and how expensive it is to be a humane leader in this world is most counterproductive and - as Rumsfeld might say - "not helpful".....
The poorest of our poor in this great country would be very well off almost anywhere in the Thirld World.
Our seeming arrogant, hostile, and disengaged does little to help our cause. Being kind and sympathetic and strong in our actions to help those less fortunate is not a liberal or conservative issue, it's a human one.
Like most Americans who have traveled little and know even less, the tone of some here seems to blame the natives of Aceh province for being part of a "dictatorship", "Muslims" - who apparently have earned death and destruction from God - maybe some Caucasian version of God and generally not worthy of our donations.
If those harping about this knew anything at all about this part of the world, they would understand that 99.9% of those poor people are simply trying to exist from day to day. They are not part of some Muslim conspiracy to kill us. In fact, the residents of Aceh have been the subject of martial law and other government sanctions for their separatist sympathies for several years.
Couching every issue as "us vs. them" and how expensive it is to be a humane leader in this world is most counterproductive and - as Rumsfeld might say - "not helpful".....
The poorest of our poor in this great country would be very well off almost anywhere in the Thirld World.
Our seeming arrogant, hostile, and disengaged does little to help our cause. Being kind and sympathetic and strong in our actions to help those less fortunate is not a liberal or conservative issue, it's a human one.
Desert Dog
New member
jailmedic, gburner,
Well said... The strength of the American spirit IS our compassion for people who have suffered through such a disaster, and those of you trying to compare our largesse to other peoples, nations, religions, might as well stop now. There never will be a comparison. We as a nation will always help those unfortunates, even enemies, out no matter what, because it is the RIGHT thing to do.
Don't hold your breath waiting on other countries, like Saudi Arabia to help out. They are well known for their fruits, so to speak. The world has grown to not expect much from them. Their time will come for redemption and they will be found lacking.
Well said... The strength of the American spirit IS our compassion for people who have suffered through such a disaster, and those of you trying to compare our largesse to other peoples, nations, religions, might as well stop now. There never will be a comparison. We as a nation will always help those unfortunates, even enemies, out no matter what, because it is the RIGHT thing to do.
Don't hold your breath waiting on other countries, like Saudi Arabia to help out. They are well known for their fruits, so to speak. The world has grown to not expect much from them. Their time will come for redemption and they will be found lacking.
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
A-men, jailmedic. Very well said. It is just as simple as that.
It is a human issue.
It is a human issue.
Something to think about....
Aid for Tsunami victims $35 million
Bush Inaugural $45 million
Cost for one day of Iraq war $177 million
Can anyone advise the policy of posting a charitable link?
I am not connected with it in any way other than as a donor.
;-) - Stainless P-89 w/ Crimson Trace lasergrips)
Aid for Tsunami victims $35 million
Bush Inaugural $45 million
Cost for one day of Iraq war $177 million
Can anyone advise the policy of posting a charitable link?
I am not connected with it in any way other than as a donor.
;-) - Stainless P-89 w/ Crimson Trace lasergrips)
Well, this is the link I was talking about.....
This is a very organized small charity that posts all of its reports on line and helps Third World communities with the design and building of local water projects.
The whole idea here to me is:
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach him to fish and he will feed his family for life.
http://water.org/about/index.html
I hope this meets the rules and regs.....
This is a very organized small charity that posts all of its reports on line and helps Third World communities with the design and building of local water projects.
The whole idea here to me is:
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach him to fish and he will feed his family for life.
http://water.org/about/index.html
I hope this meets the rules and regs.....
If I may....
I'm a radical Constitutionalist US American type. I am all for the US taking care of business here at home. I am less than overwhelmed at other governments who act as if they are angry with me and my country because of our liberty and material blessings.
I am an ordained Southern Baptist preacher. I don't have much use for organized 'ecumenicalism' and I sure give no heed to the "all religions are just different ways to God" nonsense.
Having said that, I feel a need to help those victims of disaster. Because that is who I am and who I feel God wants me to be. I'm not sending any money to the UN, but I think Samaritan's Purse might be a good channel. Or the International Red Cross.
Anyone who chooses to do otherwise, live with your own conscience.
I'm a radical Constitutionalist US American type. I am all for the US taking care of business here at home. I am less than overwhelmed at other governments who act as if they are angry with me and my country because of our liberty and material blessings.
I am an ordained Southern Baptist preacher. I don't have much use for organized 'ecumenicalism' and I sure give no heed to the "all religions are just different ways to God" nonsense.
Having said that, I feel a need to help those victims of disaster. Because that is who I am and who I feel God wants me to be. I'm not sending any money to the UN, but I think Samaritan's Purse might be a good channel. Or the International Red Cross.
Anyone who chooses to do otherwise, live with your own conscience.
MeekAndMild
New member
Not BS. I have it on good report from one of my kids who spent nearly 6 months in a central American banana republic as part of a US military aid mission following their huge hurricane/flood/mudslide a few years ago. My child and the other SeaBees worked like dogs rebuilding roads, digging out rubble, patching communications links, rebuilding infrastructure. The common people got precious little results from our efforts but the fat cats just grew fatter.
The fact that Indonesia is an Islamic republic just means that any aid that actually gets through will be re-labeled with the red crescent instead of the red cross and the fat cats have a direct line to Allah to justify stealing from the poor folks. I'm terribly sorry that the world isn't really like Sesame Street where everybody lives together in love, peace and harmony, but that's the way it is. The realization that some of us recognize the fact that all the folks criticizing US actions are not pristine virginally pure should not be reason to result in a name calling match.
Ever wonder why the people videotaping those poor suckers being swept away to drown weren't throwing them ropes instead?