New Army Handgun: We're Really Doing This

[Andy Blozinski]

The F-35 might rank as the top most damaging thing to our military preparedness. If they want to spend some money on ANYTHING but that, it will probably be better spent.
If we get a cool modular pistol that can fire 9mm or .45 that can be switched to a few other applications, I'm alright with that.

 

[TxFlyFish]

What's a modular pistol?

 

[propforce]

I seem to remember a lot of same complaints when the Army switched from .45 ACP to 9 mm....

 

[Sharkbite]

Maybe it's time to bring back the carbine concept that was introduced with the M1 carbine. But instead of an intermediate rifle round make it a pistol round carbine that has a folding stock and weighs in at about 5 pounds.

HK tried that with the MP-7. Other then some VERY specialized units the acceptance by U.S. forces was lackluster to say the least

Ive never been a M9 fan. The USMC took my 1911 and issued me one. Not a fan. Having had to use a pistol as a secondary weapon in a couple of unfriendly countries during the past decade...i am glad it wasnt an M9.

That being said...it was a 9mm pistol. Im ok with that caliber choice.

 

[Evil Monkey]

who gives a damn what round it fires. It's all the same thing, PISTOL ROUNDS.

Second, no they're not going to spend millions on replacing a pistol, of all things.

What is the M9 for? Is it a PDW or an emergency weapon?

As an emergency weapon, the current M9 is fine.

As a PDW, a shoulder fired weapon would be more appropriate.

 

[Noreaster]

Ok, some of you don't think the M9 needs to be replaced. Some of you don't think the US Military should use a handgun for anything and a PDW would be better. The Army and Air Force want to replace their handguns. They want to have handguns. As for the $ for the program, I don't have an answer for you other than if they don't buy new handguns they won't be able to spend that money on something else. The money would probably be a procurement from Congress. Congress or the DOD wont say "hey you didn't spend that 35 million on handguns, here it is buy something else. Remember Pakistan is getting 1.6 billion in aid from us. I'd rather spend that money on the US military but it aint gonna happen. We can all argue about money better spent. When the Marines bought new M9a1 and Colt 1911s no one complained. I bet a Glock or M&P would have been cheaper.

 

[IZinterrogator]

Those drone pilots are in compounds in the Midwest. Line of sight communication isn't needed on the modern battlefield. Rear echelon personnel are better served by carbines or shotguns as WVsig said.

Shadows are flown line of sight. However, there's no point in getting in a gunfight in the shelter when you can just shoot through it instead.

 

[std7mag]

Those that do not follow history, are doomed to repeat it!!!

Alas, does no one here remember the M14 to M16 change over???

And why would it surprise anyone that the Army wants to do a study? Anyone want to buy a $5,000 toilet seat???

Oh, and the Marine Corps has already gone ahead and started replacing their M9 in the special ops groups with the M45..

Knowing how the military operates, I'm surprised that they haven't put in an order for Hi-Points in 380acp...

 

[kcub]

Related question to the more general topic of a better military sidearm, would this bullet design be Geneva/Hague compliant?

Lehigh Defense Xtreme Penetrator

Solid Copper (Lead Free) precision CNC machined design. *Good for the environment, bad, really bad for the target.

Unique nose that increases the hydraulic velocity creating high pressure spikes resulting in a larger permanent wound column and over twice the penetration than most expanding bullets.

Blunt nose for initial energy transfer and straight, deep penetration while allowing for reliable magazine feeding.

Solid copper construction and cutting edges to punch through entry barriers without deformation or deflection

http://www.underwoodammo.com/45acpp200grainxpboxof20.aspx

http://www.underwoodammo.com/9mmlugerp115grainxpboxof20.aspx

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/09/08/lehigh-defense-announces-xtreme-penetrator-ammo/

 

[Nathan]

Honestly, they need a handgun, just not a combat handgun. The combat handgun may be a waste of time....in a tank, airplane, etc maybe not, but really only spec ops and MP's need handguns.

In a tank, airplane, machine gunner, etc, a PDW is the better tool. I'm thinking something modular like the new sig, but in a short rifle round like the 5.7 FN round. Modular like a pistol form with a laser for airplane pilots and tankers.....then a folding stock version with the small Trijicon dot sight and a flashlight for the field commanders.

Last, wanna really spend money right? Develop a small silencer that works decent to put on every M4! No reason to go deaf in modern times.

 

[testuser79]

Agreed that 9mm will likely stay for most soldiers, we're neglecting DoD police officers, criminal investigators, MPs and other security personnel whose primary weapon is a handgun. They might have a need for a .40 S&W pistol.

This could be handled with a modular design. It means slides and frames come together with zero fitting...like a Glock or M&P.

Say you have a need for an "offensive" handgun for a small number of individuals. You want a longer barrel, heavier caliber and a lighter trigger.

If the general issue handgun is in 9mm with decocker, like a Walther P99 AS, your "offensive" handgun would just delete the decocker like a Walter P99QA and go with a longer slide in .40 S&W. The frame stays the same and most replacement parts are still shared with the 9mm variant. All you do is purchase new slides and mags.

With a modular system, you can issue the same frame and slide to 99% and buy a small batch of barrels, slides and mags from the same manufacturer for those in the organization that have different requirements. No need to waste money on buying a different handgun for very few personnel just because they have unique mission requirements.

 

[Pilot]

M1 Carbine?

 

[Brutus]

Maybe the drone trailer was a bad example but what about the guys driving vehicles, kind of hard to swing a carbine in a vehicle and yes something like a 10mm might not penetrate body armor but it sure would hurt a hell of a lot more than a 9mm.

 

[Brit]

The FBI just spent a bunch of money, showing their 9mm rounds were best, for them. 9mm Luger +P 115 Grain Xtreme Penetrator would be an ideal round.

Glock pistols for the Military, Glock 19 Gen4. Light, and shoot lots of rounds prior to breaking, now made in the US.

Nothing to test, evaluate, invent! All the hardball ammo stocks, practice only.
But they still stop bad guys, everywhere, if that's all you have!

In order to stop aggression by an opponent, bullet must hit the organs, deep penetration. Anywhere you go in the world, 9mm is available.

 

[TunnelRat]

Shadows are flown line of sight. However, there's no point in getting in a gunfight in the shelter when you can just shoot through it instead.

The Shadow is a relatively special case. I was thinking more Predator, Reaper, and Global Hawk but you are right that LOS does come into play for certain platforms. My point was there aren't trailers of operators comprising a command center for all drone operstions a stone's throw from enemy lines.

 

[TunnelRat]

Maybe the drone trailer was a bad example but what about the guys driving vehicles, kind of hard to swing a carbine in a vehicle and yes something like a 10mm might not penetrate body armor but it sure would hurt a hell of a lot more than a 9mm.

In a vehicle I'd rather a carbine with a folding stock or a bull pup. If you are ambushed it might be from distance and you need something that can reach out. Even a PDW in a pistol caliber would be better.

I am not saying pistols are useless. I am questioning if the role pistols fill is so important to warrant the money to procure a new pistol to replace the M9 and how much better a new pistol will be able to perform than the M9.

 

[kcub]

Well said.

 

[Wreck-n-Crew]

IMO the 9mm standard won't change.

. 45 ACP is a poor choice here, 9mm is better, but 40, 357 Sig, or 10mm are even better options.

There is no scientific data that backs up that suggestion. Plus the recoil of a 10mm in a Glock (as suggested) is a much less manageable platform than an M9. Why? Physics. Reliability of the Glock itself (all calibers) seems feasible, just not in 10mm as far as the role it needs to fill. Just think about it...Accuracy is number one. Some can argue all they want but if you cant get good shots the threat will remain alive for sure. Now if so many people are not as efficient with the 40 as the 45 or 9mm because of recoil and are moving away, why in the world would we think the 10mm is any more manageable or feasible for a combat pistol?

NATO: Yes we have broken from using the NATO round before with the 45acp but it makes since not to. I know we have not had problems with Logistics and ammo supplies because of breaking from the NATO round but that is us and it doesn't make since to assume it won't happen. I don't see our military doing it again either. Not because we follow NATO either. Reason: Until there is some scientific evidence that a different caliber is much more effective for the role the 9mm Makes since. Maybe some have not had that epiphany and maybe never will. But more 9mm rounds can be put into a magazine than 40, 45, 357sig, or 10mm. Plus they are lighter which is important for anyone who has to pack weight around all day.

We have had caliber wars before but there are more reasons to use a standardized round that is effective in the given role. You may have a different view or preference personally but this decision is on a larger scale. There are more factors involved. I can't say it won't change. I can only say it makes since not to change it until it is proven that there is a reason that it needs changing and I don't see that.

Me personally?

I like the 40 for better small barrier penetration (light doors, drywall, car door windows). Not much better but the difference could mean a lot if I ever encountered it. Maybe the 40 plays a better role because of that and the increased recoil may not make a big difference to the guy carrying it in combat. Could be a more effective round. Yet the 9mm has not been proven ineffective in it's roll yet and therefore it's not broken. Even better yet if it does the fix to change to a different caliber could be inexpensive and the platform/design chosen may to have that option before accepting.

Look at the .223/556 round. More can be carried and they kept it. It's effectiveness has been the subject of debate and they did not change it. However the effectiveness of the 9mm and it's role has not. Other than FBI requiring a caliber change due to their perception of effectiveness (now returning to 9mm) and the military doing away with .38's, movement has been toward the 9mm standard. I see no reason they will change the caliber now.

 

[Evil Monkey]

Yes we have broken from using the NATO round before with the 45acp

That's because of certain military units in the US armed forces that wanted a subsonic capable pistol without having to introduce another pistol round into the equation like the 147gr 9mm. It's best to use what you already have. It's one of the reasons the SOCOM mark 23 was created as well. I highly doubt the reason for 45acp's modern usage is for its "stopping power" as some forum members would believe.

Further more as a general purpose pistol, the 45acp is terrible. It's too fat and deprives the user of having as many rounds as possible for the emergency situations in which a handgun is to be used for.

 

[Brit]

TUNNELRAT,

In a vehicle I'd rather a carbine with a folding stock or a bull pup. If you are ambushed it might be from distance and you need something that can reach out. Even a PDW in a pistol caliber would be better.

I am not saying pistols are useless. I am questioning if the role pistols fill is so important to warrant the money to procure a new pistol to replace the M9 and how much better a new pistol will be able to perform than the M9.

100% agree with vehicle personnel going bull-pup (Steyr AUG) best magazines in the world. You can store it, in two haves, barrel off, 30 round magazine seated. Replace M4 with Israeli TAVOR Bull-pup, for all troops.