Man fires "warning shot"; kills trespasser

[Don H]

He apparently decided that it was worth risking his life to steal someone else's property

How did you determine the man was a thief? As I recall, his body was found well outside (50 yards) the scrap yard fence and there is no indication that he was on scrap yard property at any time, nor do I recall any mention of burglary tools in the man's possession.

Surely walking around at 10:30 PM isn't indicative of thievery - if it is, many of my elderly neighbors must be thieves since they tend to take their summer evening walks after dark when the temperature cools down. Come to think of it, I've been known to take longish walks at 2 or 3 in the morning, armed, if my back is bothering me and preventing me from sleeping - does that make me a "thief", to be shot on sight as I walk past a commercial property?

Nowhere in the news reports have I seen anything to support the theory that the dead man was a thief.

 

[Don H]

I don't see how American Iron and Metal could not know about what Noriega was doing. After all, he is their employee.

Employers are often unaware of everything their employees are doing - that's why such things as employee theft is a fact of life in some occupations such as retail sales. My former employer (I'm retired) opened a new facility in Colorado. Each mechanic was issued a complete tool kit, including pneumatic tools. Eighteen months later an audit discovered that enough tools had been purchased and issued to completely outfit each mechanic three times over - where did all those tools go and do you think the loss was sanctioned by the employer?

I'm aware of another case where a mobile crane operator made a detour to his home and was using the crane to move a septic tank into place. His employer would never have known about this misuse of company equipment if the operator hadn't managed to hit the crane on a low bridge on his way back to work.

As a former manager, I KNOW there were things that involved my employees going on that I wasn't aware of.

 

[Angelica79]

What I meant in saying that I'm sure they knew what he was doing was that there was a second man there that night and he saw Noriega arrive all dressed in black and armed with the three weapons one of which Noriega loaned to the other guard. Of course, the other man, Ronald Galvan, was David Noriega's friend and so therefore would not report him if arriving in such a manner was against company policy. However, I have heard that American Iron and Metal lets employees carry personal weapons when they guard the facility, but I'm not sure if they have regulations regarding the type of firearm an employee is allowed to carry. A guard that works for the company said that they often do not carry weapons at all, though and that they are not supposed to fire warning shots and that Noriega did not complete any training for being a security guard as he was normally a welder. Also it is true that my dad was fifty yards away from American Iron and Metal's property and he did go out a lot at night since he didn't sleep much. People keep saying that since the place had been robbed before that's why my dad was shot for being outside of the property, but banks get robbed all of the time and people don't get shot for standing outside of them at any time of the day or night.

 

[Angelica79]

I wanted to say another thing...I find it repulsive that some individuals feel that they can read an article or two and then make judgment about a person's life. Some people feel that they are so virtuous and above all others they they now have the permission of God to judge who is beatific enough to live and who is despicable enough to die.
I also think that many of you do not put any thought into how you would react if this were your relative and you had to read posts saying the things that have been said about my dad. Also, when you say what you say to me, how would you feel if someone were saying that to your wife, sister, or mother after you had been killed? Do you never stop to think what it would be like to wear another person's shoes?

 

[amh72]

With 14 years of military experienceand a tour in Iraq, there are several things that are not right about this whole deal.
-First there is no such thing as a warning shot. The reasons being if you shoot at their feet you risk ricochet into the person you are to detain. Second you shoot in the air, the round has got to come down sometime and somewhere.

- Second, the security guards were neither guarding classified information, nor property that could be a danger to the public. So deadly force is not an option unless you are in danger of losing your life.

- Third, if force was necessary you would use the minimum force necessary and work your way up as the force escalates. The article states the guard had pepper spray, he should have used that first. And if he was in such danger of being attack why was the victim shot in the back?

- Fourth.In the place I work now, we deal with expesive metals, that are more valuable than the 15k that this company was loing and our guards do not carry weapons. The guard should have tried to discourage the intruder then called the police before involving himself in a confrontation. Observe and if you can safely, detain until police assistance arrives.

- Fifth, the weapons the security guards were carrying were a little overkill. A pistol version of an M-16, a 454 Casul and .40 SW. Sounds like someone wants to be a hero to me.

- Sixth, Clay Eldred was found some 50 yards from the fence. And what I gather the Pueblo has alot of transients. Unless they got what he was doing on camera, then that puts doubt. Regardless if he was breaking in it gave the guard no right to defend the property, just himself.

To me this sounds like an inexperienced person, who is not a qualified security guard, trying to be a hero. The shoot first, ask questions later attitude.
What if this was your family member who is just walking by the place, or a homeless man just living in the wooded area there just by the river and they get shot for just being there.

 

[orionengnr]

I agree that it was a bad shoot.

Based on what, exactly? The sketchy details provided?

If Angelica is who she says she is, and the facts bear this out, I will retract this posting and eat crow. There are a couple of big "ifs" there.

Who said it was a "warning" shot, anyway? I saw no quote from the shooter saying this. Could this be the MSM guy "interpreting" or editorializing on the story?

Not nearly enough info here to make an informed comment. Although that has not seemed to stop too many...

 

[amh72]

I have followed this incident from the time it came out in the paper. It does state that Noirega claimed he fired 3 to 5 warning shots. There were casings found inside and outside the perimeter. Noriega was outside the perimeter.
Also, the second security guard, Gavin has confessed to carrying a weapon and placing the bat next to the body.
Like I said this is a case where two untrained bafoons are trying to be bad-ass heros.
All in all it is a bad situation, and the full truth may never be fully known. But a man doesn't deserve to be shot down, if he even was breaking in, for a piece of scrap metal. If, however he has invaded your home, then I would consider that justifiable.
I am no anti-gun nut what so ever, but what will be next kids toilet papering your trees get shot for trespassing? The inexperience shows with these two gentlemen.
And Angelica is who she says she is. I do have personal knowledge of that, and I can give proof. So, start eating crow.

[COLOR="Navy"]Second security guard arrested in deadly shooting
Story By: Ryan Wilson
Source: KOAA

Pueblo Published 7 day(s) ago
Another security guard is charged in a deadly shooting outside a Pueblo scrap yard. Ronald Galvan is being held on accessory to murder and, evidence tampering charges.

Investigators are shining more light on how 42 year old Clay Eldred was killed. in his first interview with police, Ronald Galvan told them David Noriega shot several warning shots at two trespassers, he said when they found out Eldred was dead, Noriega grabbed a baseball bat and placed it near the body, to make it look like he was attacking.

Now, Galvan's telling the Sheriff's Office that he also fired warning shots, grabbed the baseball bat out of Noriega's truck, and tossed it near the body.

Both men are now in jail and the Eldred family is mourning a man, who they say was always willing to help.[/COLOR]

 

[triggerhappy2006]

I am concerned about this AR15 pistol? it may be pistol size but it is not a pistol it is an AR 15 modified(possibly illegally?) to be more concealable.

 

[OldMarksman]

How did you determine the man was a thief? As I recall, his body was found well outside (50 yards) the scrap yard fence and there is no indication that he was on scrap yard property at any time, nor do I recall any mention of burglary tools in the man's possession.

Surely walking around at 10:30 PM isn't indicative of thievery - if it is, many of my elderly neighbors must be thieves since they tend to take their summer evening walks after dark when the temperature cools down. Come to think of it, I've been known to take longish walks at 2 or 3 in the morning, armed, if my back is bothering me and preventing me from sleeping - does that make me a "thief", to be shot on sight as I walk past a commercial property?

Nowhere in the news reports have I seen anything to support the theory that the dead man was a thief.

In my humble opinion, absent any factual, objective counter to the above, the deceased would seem to be an innocent victim, all unsupported conjecture aside.

There are undoubtedly relevant facts that have not been set forth, but to me, absent a hearing, it would appear that everyone owes his descendants and family the understanding that there is the benefit of the doubt.

Your take, moderator?

 

[PT111]

I stand by my original post that this was a royal screwup. I do not know if a break-in was occuring but is sounds like it likely was not. The hard evidence says that "Dirty harry" is headed to jail for a long time and his sidekick "Goober" is going to join him for a while. A very bad situation.

 

[orionengnr]

All in all it is a bad situation, and the full truth may never be fully known. But a man doesn't deserve to be shot down, if he even was breaking in, for a piece of scrap metal.

That is your opinion. Depending upon where this happened, it may or may not be the law. It sure as Hell isn't the law where I live.

I am concerned about this AR15 pistol? it may be pistol size but it is not a pistol it is an AR 15 modified(possibly illegally?) to be more concealable.

Once again, learn the law in your area. An AR-15 pistol is not illegal where i live.

 

[orionengnr]

All in all it is a bad situation, and the full truth may never be fully known. But a man doesn't deserve to be shot down, if he even was breaking in, for a piece of scrap metal.

That is your opinion. Depending upon where this happened, it may or may not be the law. It sure as Hell isn't the law where I live.

And Angelica is who she says she is. I do have personal knowledge of that, and I can give proof. So, start eating crow.

Wow, someone with two posts validating someone with five posts. Pass the salt.
Not.
Even.
Close.

 

[Angelica79]

The weapon used in the shooting is an AR-15 pistol, which Sgt. Bravo of the Pueblo Police Department's investigation unit said “looks like an M-16 machine gun, only in a pistol configuration.”

I am unaware of whether this is an illegal weapon to have in Colorado. I feel that it's overkill to have to guard some scrap metal and I feel that American Iron and Metal should have some sort of regulations regarding the type of weapons the guards can carry and how many.

I want to thank the people on here who actually have compassion and who think that a man's life is actually worth something.

 

[Angelica79]

I guess some of you on here think that it's okay to shoot someone because they were just standing around and for those of you that think he was actually going to steal something, I guess you think it's okay to shoot someone who's shoplifting in the store. How about kids who steal candy...should we start shooting them next? And what if we don't find them with anything and we just THOUGHT they were stealing it. Maybe then we should plant a lollipop next to them so we don't get into trouble. Also I have pictures of me with my dad and you can go to http://photobucket.com/images/clay eldred/clay eldred/ to see the pictures of him and my family and also you can go to http://www.koaa.com/aaaa_top_stories/x1169631378/Second-security-guard-arrested-in-deadly-shooting and watch the video and it shows the pictures I sent into Ryan Wilson because I was upset about the fact that no one was covering any information about my dad on the news other than his name and age. Also here is the page I am working on for him. http://www.geocities.com/clayeldred/

 

[Moonglo629]

OK people

I am Clay Eldred's ex wife and the mother of Angeli'ca as well as 2 sons.I find it quite heartbreaking and distasteful ,the way some people think it is ok to murder someone. The heading is incorrect..he was NOT tresspassing...but ya know,even if someone DID tresspass....is it OK to KILL them...just shoot them in the back??It takes a special kind of security guard to shoot someone in the BACK!! Does this mean,if we go in Wal Mart & steal a candy bar...it's ok to be shot?


Please ,before you condemn someone..know your facts.Clay did not deserve to die...there is a lot to this story many of you are overlooking.he had no weapon,he was not trespassing,he did not attack anyone. I met Clay when he was 17 and he has NEVER been a violent person.

Now if you doubt who I am...you are free to e mail me.I can assure you,I and Angeli'ca are who we say we are.

On a closing note,I would hope you all would be human & see the heartbreak & grief my children & I are going through...and I pray that that sort of crime NEVER happens to you or yours.

 

[Binary J]

Guns Don't kill people, stupid people kill people

Ok the main points out of the way first. Angelica is who she says she is, Clay's ex wife is who she says she is and I am Clay's oldest son J. If any of you feel like you need to be informed better and know my feelings on this tragedy please feel free to visit my website at www.simian-think-tank.com I have covered every news article and scrap that could be dug up on this case and you can see the facts.

Now let's get something straight here, I know this is a firearm enthusiast site and I am all for that. It is our constitutional right to have firearms and should be. I think we all can agree that guns don't kill people, idiots with guns kill people....such as in this tragedy with the loss of my father's life. I think sometimes people get fired up and defensive when something they cherish comes under fire such as in a case like this. But as gun enthusiasts I think you all can agree that what Noriega was carrying that night was excessive firepower. Yes, the AR-15 was legal for him to carry but nothing he did that night were the actions of a responsible gun owner. Much less a responsible guard or even human being.

The facts are noriega was not a trained guard, he was outside of the perimeter he was supposed to be guarding, there were shells inside and outside the perimeter, Noriega claimed to have fired 3 then 6 warning shots and then Galvan also claimed to have fired warning shots, how many warning shots are you gonna fire at an unarmed man? the bat was placed, Clay was killed 50 yards outside of the property, Noriega and Galvan's stories have never added up or been consistent, noriega claims he was in fear for his life but if he was being attacked how did he shoot Clay in the back? None of the supposed facts add up other than Noriega is lying. Outside of him maybe trying to be a hero, it wouldn't surprise me if those 2 were just firing off shots and accidentally killed a man and tried to make it look like a burglary.

I thought, and again you guys being constitutionally allowed gun owners that law was the rule of the land? Is not it law that a man is innocent until proven guilty? Noriega is innocent until proven guilty, we will be finding out the answer to that in about 8 hours or so, but Clay will never have a chance to prove his innocence, he will never have a chance to say what happened that night. IT is up to my family and myself to make it known that an innocent man died that night. It hurts to lose someone, we all have, but to not have closure and have to wait to see what will happen to his murderers is hard on my family. Maybe they should not have seen the things you guys have written because some of them are uninformed and callous, but you are all welcomed to have your own opinions, all I ask is have some respect, use your common sense and don't just defend a gun owner because he is a gun owner and it threatens your past time when some idiot does something stupid with a gun, and don't be suckers for misleading headlines written to sell papers. It's a shame we live in a time when we expect someone out at night to be a thief or criminal, we are almost conditioned to this kind of response, prisoners in our own homes to criminal activity, especially from what I hear about that area of Pueblo Colorado. But Clay was that kind of guy, he wasn't scared, he wasn't a violent person, he was just a hard working man trying to make some money. He worked in that area drove trucks, worked construction, it wouldn't be anything for him to get off of work late at night. We may never know the exact reason he was in that area that night, but the only crime committed by Clay was being at the wrong place at the wrong time.

I truly hope no one has to go what my family has gone through, I appreciate the kindness and common sense some of you have used while talking to my family. We are all guests on this site and mean only to show you a different perspective than the false ones some of you have. MY family are good law abiding people who are deeply hurt by the things people say about my father's death. We google his name trying to get info about the case and any updates and sometimes things like this site and the things you say pop up. I hope you can all understand that if it were your loved one you would feel defensive too.

 

[Stagger Lee]

First of all, I'm not defending the two security guards at this time.

But I'm also not buying the stuff about Clay being a great, honest, upstanding and law-abiding citizen who worked hard and was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.

"Hard-working" means going to a job every day, not having a part-time job and scrounging scrap metal on the side. (Hmmmm... and being near a scrap yard full of such metal well after dark.)

One thing that discredits the "wrong place at the wrong time/not doing anything illegal" is the fact that there was another man with him at the time, per witness reports. Well that man should have been able to confirm that the two of them--he and Clay--weren't doing anything wrong and could explain why they were where they were. But the truth is, that man fled and hasn't come forward to tell what he knows.

So why flee? Honest men don't flee. Guilty men flee even when no one pursueth.

Now getting back to other issues cited,

So the body was found a distance from the fence. That doesn't mean that he wasn't climbing the fence. More often than not, when people are shot, they are able to travel a distance before dropping. Few "die instantly" and hit the ground where they're shot. That's movie stuff unless one is hit in the head.

And being hit in the back? Many attackers are "shot in the back" because when a gun is brought to bear, the bad guy reacts by turning away even as the trigger is being pulled. This is also common, and a bullet strike to the back does not mean what we've come to believe courtesy of the Saturday morning westerns on TV. Now I'm NOT saying that Clay was attacking anyone--we don't know but I personally doubt it. But I'm also not buying the "just walking along, on the way to choir practice at the church..." portrayal either.

It is true that that law generally does not allow for the shooting of property thieves. However there's justice and there's Justice, and Karma tends to be a bitch sometimes. Thieves degrade the cost of life for everyone and every time one dies, I admit that I smile just a little bit.

Again, I'm sorry for your personal losses, but Clay chose to lead the life he led.

 

[MacGille]

This is a classic example of bad thinking,bad (or no) training and Hollywood attitudes.

First of all, a gun is a tool for killing. Not a warning device. The first thing they taught me in Police academy is "A gun will get you into trouble 10 times faster than it will get you out of trouble." In other words the gun is the LAST resort. AND YOU NEVER FIRE A WARNING SHOT. In fact you never draw your weapon unless you are convinced that your life is in IMMINENT danger.

Secondly, why would any business owner hire a welder to provide security. Are there no Guard agencies in town?

Third when a guy shows up wearing black and carrying three guns, I would send him home immediately. This is a hollywood ninja not a guard.

In Hollywood, a guy can shoot ten men, 2 women, blow up 12 cars and one building and never have to sign a report. In real life as the welder is finding out, taking a life is a serious issue and costly too.

As far as the victim, there is no evidence that he was in any way committing a crime. My condolences go out to his survivers. No one deserves to be killed that way. This should be a warning to all who think a CCW confers some kind of police powers. It doesn't and without training, anyone who carries a weapon is a danger to himself and to anyone else. Get training and lose the hollywood attitudes. Become as afraid of using your gun as you are about being attacked. Then maybe society wont be in danger from you.

 

[OldMarksman]

As far as the victim, there is no evidence that he was in any way committing a crime. My condolences go out to his survivors. No one deserves to be killed that way.

Well said. And to the survivors, MacGille is not alone in expressing that sentiment.

This should be a warning to all who think a CCW confers some kind of police powers. It doesn't, and without training, anyone who carries a weapon is a danger to himself and to anyone else. Get training and lose the hollywood attitudes. Become as afraid of using your gun as you are about being attacked. Then maybe society wont be in danger from you.

Also well put.

 

[Angelica79]

Stagger Lee, your points don't make sense. You say he was probably climbing the fence and shot and knocked fifty yards away from it and then you say he turned away to get away from the gunfire. How can a man climbing a fence turn away to get away from gunfire? You're just stubborn about it and you want to think the way you want to think and nothing anyone can say will change it even if my dad could stand here and tell you the story. ALSO, the ONLY person to claim that there was a second person was Noriega and we all know he's a liar and he probably fabricated that story because of the reports of two people trying to break into the facility a week or so earlier. That way, if he says there were two people then others are more apt to believe that my dad and some shadow man were the two that tried to break in at that point in time and that they were back to finish the job and so it was okay to shoot them. Also, you don't have to have a 9 to 5 job to be hard working. Just because that's your lifestyle doesn't mean it's everyone else's. When he wasn't doing one job, he was out looking for others and he would go and ask people what he could do to help them to make money. When he lived here, I lived near a guy who worked on tractor trailers and, when my dad wasn't driving a truck, he was helping that guy work on them. The only reason that my dad wasn't driving a truck (which he loved to do) was that he'd had an accident and his was gone and he was working on trying to get another truck and the company had laid him off for having the accident. Also, THANK YOU to MacGille and Old Marksman. You don't know how much it means to us.