Magazine Capacity versus Caliber

[Hansen]

As for capacity? That is not on the top of the list, this is my list;

1. Do I like it?
2. Is it comfortable to wear?
3. Can I control the firearm?
4. Will it do what I need it to do?
5. Affordability? (I hate this part, sometimes nothing you can do)
5. How many rounds does it hold?


If the gun you chose is not 100% to your likings then you will most likely not wear it after the newnest has wore off. If you don't like it, then what good is capacity? Or even caliber????

Just my .02 cents.....

 

[Wayfaring_Stranger]

Springfield XD-45... .45 ACP, and 13+1 rounds... WHY compromise on EITHER caliber or capacity?

Cause thats a lot to carry, at least for a CCW. For home - fine. Concealed, how could you carry that?

 

[DougO83]

...

Thought you'd toss out one those easy-to-answer, non-debatable questions, did you?

Okay ...

Yes, No & Maybe.

I own a number of different 'working' pistols in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, and over the years I've been issued a number of different pistols, of different sizes and magazine capacities, chambered in the same calibers.

After a number of years as a LE firearms instructor and armorer I finally decided that caliber and capacity matter less to me than reliability, inherent practical accuracy, ease of maintenance/support and overall ergonomics.

After a number of years of carrying a 15+1 9mm service pistol I opted for the compact 12+1 model after working a plainclothes assignment for a while. If I'd had the opportunity I'd have selected one of the few 3913's available for their slimmer and lighter 8+1 single column features, and I'd have been comfortable carrying one for either uniform or plainclothes, but they were designated for folks who just couldn't use the standard pistols with wider double column magazines.

So, I guess sheer 'capacity' wasn't as important to me as it might be to some other folks. Neither is caliber. Not really.

I was later issued a full-size .40 S&W with 12+1 capacity. I eventually decided the issued 9mm compact with 12+1 capacity was preferable to the full-size .40 S&W of similar capacity, albeit larger caliber, so I chose to carry the 9mm pistol more than the .40 S&W pistol. Equal capacity ... but I chose the 'smaller' caliber for the platform, for reasons of personal preference considered from training and daily carry experiences.

I later turned down an opportunity to carry a standard steel 7+1 capacity Colt pistol, one of our few special purpose pistols, and did so simply because of the weight. After I was later issued a TDA 8+1 capacity all-steel .45 ACP service pistol, and carried it in my plainclothes assignment for a while, I finally turned it in so it could be issued to someone I knew who really wanted one of the new all-steel .45's. He was very pleased with it, and I chose to carry an issued lightweight compact 9+1 capacity .40 S&W.

I suppose you could say I traded a larger, heavier 8+1 capacity .45 ACP for a smaller, lighter weight .40 S&W with an additional round's capacity ... but I chose it not for the capacity, but for the lighter weight and ergonomics, both of which were simply preferable for me.

Now, I'm not exactly consistent in my preferences, and I'll admit to that ...

For example, I'll chose to carry a J-frame with 5-shot capacity over my CS45 with 6+1 capacity ... and do so for reason of the lighter weight and smaller size.

Then, on another day when I do chose to carry a pistol off-duty, I'll chose the CS9 over the CS45 ... because the CS9 is slightly smaller and lighter, and has 7-rd magazines instead of 6-round magazines.

Some days I'll chose for overall size & weight ... other days for specific caliber ... and yet other days 'capacity' might be more of a consideration ... and then some days for overlapping considerations of all of the above.

Never said I was consistent ...

I do tend to like the .40 S&W and .45 ACP for their heavier bullet weights, although I don't lose any sleep when carrying lighter bullet weights in 9mm or .38 Spl.

Matter of fact, I'd still choose to carry an issued 9mm if that were an option. I've fired many ten's of thousands of rounds of 9mm downrange over the years since we originally transitioned from .357 Magnum revolvers to 9mm pistols, and I feel confident in using it for defensive purpose. It's not an option, however, since the decision was made that our new issued weapons will only be offered chambered in .40 S&W and .45 ACP. Oh well. No big deal. I still choose a 9mm more often than a .40 S&W or .45 ACP when it comes to choosing from among my personally owned off-duty weapons.

Now, if I were offered a choice between an issued P220 or a P226, I'd consider most of the same factors. Does one 'fit' my hand better than the other? Do I prefer the way one handles, balances and shoots more than the other? I'd carry either as an issued weapon and not worry about it, but if I had a choice and an opportunity to try both, I'd try them and then make my decision for whatever reasons suited me and my perceived needs.

It's just a handgun, chambered in one of the major defensive LE calibers ...

Not much help, huh?

wow...I am confused. Anyway, I choose the Steyr M40-A1, that is why I am buying one. I have fired thisgun enough to be very proficient with it and will carry it anywhere.

 

[10mm man]

good questions

"1. Do I like it?
2. Is it comfortable to wear?
3. Can I control the firearm?
4. Will it do what I need it to do?
5. Affordability? (I hate this part, sometimes nothing you can do)
5. How many rounds does it hold?"
quote by Hansen

I have heard several good comments about "if you can't hit your target, high capacity means more misses".

I found that I could answer the above 5 questions to my satisfaction.
Someone once said that paper targets do not shoot back and so I would say that under fire, I am not sure anyone will react the same as at the range. But practice makes perfect.
Attached pic is 50 rounds of 10mm at 21 feet. Yea, I know, I need to work on my trigger control to quit pushing pistol to the left.

 

[Hemicuda]

I conceal it the same way I conceal ALL my handguns... In a Galco Jak-Slide, above my right rear pocket, with the barrel in the top of my pocket above my wallet, and a T-shirt or polo shirt over it...

 

[Hansen]

Training for the real world is almost impossible. "Reality" training means that what happens in a real situation should be brought into the training rehlms! But it is IMPOSSIBLE to bring in the gunshot part to the training and the high stress it creates!!!!

But as 10mm man stated practice makes better, and practice as close to real thing as safely as possible!

 

['75Scout]

I go by the theory that you should carry the largest caliber you can handle. I can handle the 45 so thats what I carry. I am in a police academy and of 93 current cadets there are only 7 that carry 45acp. About 60 carry a 40 and the rest carry 9mm. I am one of the 7 that carry the 45 and the only Sig 220 that I know of. All I can say is I truely love this gun and am supremely confident that it is a fine weapon. Shot placement will be far more important.

 

[Olive Drab]

im a fan of higher capacity and 124 grain speer gold dots. A CNS shot is going to take you down whether you use a .45 or a 9mm. a miss is still going to be a miss.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Get BOTH!

Seriously... I have a double stack .45 which isn't any harder to deal with than a double stack 9mm.

If I have to pick one, I guess "caliber"... since I did give up 2 whole rounds of capacity

 

[Spenser]

I used to subscribe to the "more is better" theory.

Now, I don't feel at all at a disadvantage with a single-stack pistol of some sort, especially one that I shoot well.

Not that I don't like the hi-cap guns, I certainly do. I think I'd opt for carrying something that I have faith and confidence in. So it's more lately about what I feel like I can shoot the best with. The one 9mm that hits is much more valuable than the slew of .45's or .40's that miss.

So the main consideration is whether or not I'm comfortable with the gun, no matter what size, mag capacity, etc. It's what I think I can make hits with.

 

[Hansen]

I agree with spenser. Most shootings are over in less than three rounds, that is one reason I don't go by capacity. The second reason is I don't have big hands and double stack guns I dont like the way they feel for me. Single stack I am happy with.

 

[kjdoski]

Here's my own opinion, worth EXACTLY what you paid for it:

1. The most important thing about defensive firearms use is SHOT PLACEMENT

2. In order to ensure adequate shot placement in the most stressful experience of your life, your pistol needs to have several factors:

a. It must "fit" your hand well so your EXTREMELY fast grip aquisition and draw are true
b. It must have a DECENT trigger - not necessarily match grade, but you need to be able to manipulate the trigger smoothly, without yanking the bore off target
c. It must shoot at or very near Point of Aim
d. It SHOULD shoot "naturally" so a flash sight picture or body indexed aiming allow effective hits
e. It must be controllable in rapid fire, as I personally believe in shooting until the targets ceases to be threats

3. The pistol needs to be concealable BY YOU, given the climate you live in, your mode of dress, and your daily activity.

Not many pistols will meet all of those criteria equally well. For me, the "fit" of the P228/9 and P226 are much better than the "fit" of the P220, so I would prefer to have the "smaller" caliber pistol over the "larger" caliber pistol. The fact that the 226/8/9 offer higher magazine capacity is a bonus, not a deciding factor. The 9mm Sigs are also significantly easier for me to shoot at speed, another factor in their favor, FOR ME.

On the other hand, the Kahr PM9 "fits" my hand better than the G26, so, even though the PM9 offers fewer rounds of the same potency, it's what I frequently pick for deep concealment.

Given two pistols of exactly the same dimensions, with the same ergonomics (e.g. G19 versus G23) it comes down to shootability, for me. I don't believe there's ENOUGH difference between the best 9mm and the best .40s to make it worthwhile to decrease shot-to-shot speed by going to the larger caliber.

To me, the two "ultimate" fighting handguns are at opposite ends of the spectrum - the G19 (capacity, fast follow ups, light weight and small size), and the 1911 (accuracy, shootability, and hard hitting ammunition). I go back to Massad Ayoob's old question: "do you want a buzz saw, or a hammer?"

Regards,

Kevin

 

[k8do]

and now, the rest of the story

Most for-real gunfights take place a close range... Inside of 20 feet will cover some 90%... Inside of 9 feet will cover more than half...
There are relatively few shots fired the majority of the time...
<drive by gangsta spray and run don't count for the types of fights we are discussing here>
In the 9 foot arena the first one who gets off a shot usually comes out the winner...
The first hit ends the fight a high percentage of the time...

So, the basic rules are simple:

1. Don't get into a gunfight - period!
People who get into gunfights get hurt - or get dead...
Use the gun if someone charges at you, otherwise back out of the situation, leave the room, or get off the street, stomp the accelerator and blow through that red light, etc... Go....
If the BG shoots at you as you go, don't get shot! With each shot that hits you your survivability drops dramatically... Duck, run, hide, leave... This business of taking the stance, cooly lining up the sights , and squeeze the trigger, will get you dead more often than not... Maybe flip off a shot to make him hesitate, but be smoking on outta there while 'shootin on the move'...

2. If there is shooting, go where they are not shooting... See #1 - run, hide, leave... Most shooters cannot hit someone who is moving sideways... Don't run straight away from the shooter unless it is the only route out of there - then lay down some fire as you go away <fast>.... Duck behind things that stop bullets - steel, concrete - drywall doesn't...

The ONLY reason to carry a gun is to survive - it is not to win the fight, or to prove you are right, or to show you have bigger cajones... If those are the reasons you carry, your odds of survival just plummeted to a dismal low - and your odds of doing prison time just went way up...

So, lets say you did everything right, you disengaged and moved away, but he ran after you and you were forced to blow him away as he came around the corner waving his gun...
Guess what?
The odds are better than 3 to 1 you will be charged with a crime by the prosecutor...
Why?
Well, he has to charge someone for having a shootout in a public street <and right before the election> and he can't afford to look soft on gun crimes... The BG is dead so he can't charge him - and there you stand smiling for the TV cameras...
He will point out to the jury that you chose to run around with a weapon and infer strongly that you were hoping to be able to kill someone... And so 12 people, who get their beliefs about guns and gun fights from 40 or 50 years of watching cheesy, fantasy, TV shows, get to decide if you were right or wrong... Not good odds, buddy...

So, if you choose to carry, you had better be Casper Milktoast... Even a 98 pound weakling will be able to use you for a door mat... You will run like a thief from even a simple argument... Why? Because having that gun on you will make you the bad guy if it escalates... Remember, every bullet comes with a lawyer attached...

Now, I expect some to take exception to what I wrote here... But let me tell ya, that being an EMR doc and having to go to the murder trials as an expert witness will make you a believer in being a really polite coward...

denny

 

[FlaRanger]

Which would you rather be shot with, a 9mm or .45? I'd take the knock down ability of the .45 over the high capacity of the 9mm anytime.

 

[Olive Drab]

id rather not be shot period... a well placed shot, especially a CNS hit will most likely incapacitate the threat regardless if the bullet is 124 or 230 grain

 

[AK103K]

Where do I get me one of them crystal balls that tells you how many rounds your going to need and at what distance?

If you want to see how well you "realistically" do under stress, get two or three friends and some airsoft pistols and see how well you do. I'll bet its not as well as you think, especially against multiple opponents, and you use more ammo than you might think, if you even know how many rounds you even fired. Of course, this is all assuming your starting even with no guns drawn, if you think your drawing against a gun in hand, better get another beer and think on it some more.

 

[Redneckrepairs]

I dont get real excited about Cal. or Cap. I normally carry single stack 9mm. It will do the job if i do mine . Your reasonably normal predators will break and run at the appearance of a weapon , much less incoming rounds . Tho i carry a 9 due to a preference for autos for ccw, I fully believe if you cant solve the problem with a j frame and a speedloader you need a swat team not more rounds .

 

[Olive Drab]

Where do I get me one of them crystal balls that tells you how many rounds your going to need and at what distance?

If you want to see how well you "realistically" do under stress, get two or three friends and some airsoft pistols and see how well you do. I'll bet its not as well as you think, especially against multiple opponents, and you use more ammo than you might think, if you even know how many rounds you even fired. Of course, this is all assuming your starting even with no guns drawn, if you think your drawing against a gun in hand, better get another beer and think on it some more.

everyone on the internet is William Tell. all this talk of adrenaline, raised heart right, flight or fight mechanism, elevated stress leves affecting accuracy is hogwash!

 

[Hansen]

????

everyone on the internet is William Tell. all this talk of adrenaline, raised heart rate, flight or fight mechanism, elevated stress levels affecting accuracy is hogwash!

No it really isn't. It effects people in different ways, but I will say it WILL effect even you in some way.

My question is have you been in a life or death ordeal? Not trying to be sarcastic at all, but that is really the only way to tell for your self in a true way. I have talked to several shooting victims recently and all of them had this things you mentioned effect them in some way.

There is a lot of BS on the internet, just got to filter that crap out.

 

[easyG]

I generally choose capacity over caliber in handguns for several reasons:


There is NO MAGIC BULLET.
Folks have survived being shot with every handgun caliber know to man.
Folks have taken numerous .45 and .357 rounds and lived to tell the tale.
So when it comes to 9mm and larger, there's not a lot of real effective difference between them.

Shot placement and accuracy trump caliber everytime.

I often shoot with one hand, and there's also the possibility that my wife might have to use the firearm as well, and she might need to shoot it with one hand too...so less recoil is better.

In the event of a prolonged shootout, more rounds between reloads is definitley an advantage.

And finally...

After a firefight, nobody ever said "Gee, I had too many bullets. Next time I'll carry less".