Bartholomew Roberts, re: post
1. reasoning by internet links
You can find web links/posts to support anything, from curing cancer by diet to making phenomenal returns based on pyramid schemes. Not only that, you can see in this thread, as well as others, lack of even elementary understanding about general design or test principles.
Furthermore, not everything in this world is duplicated in web space(that's why we still have printed publication).
According to small arms design text "Small Arms: General Design" by Allsop/Toomey, gas impingement system such as those used on AR15/M16 suffer from:
Small Arms: General Design by Allsop/Toomey said:
The main drawback is that carbon particles are deposited all around the breech head and these become hard on cooling.
Then the text goes on further to say that gas impingement system weapon which is not cleaned frequently is liable for more stoppages.
Here are the facts about gas impingement system:
- it gets dirtier compared to gas piston system(increased rate of fouling)
- the system runs hotter
Basic engineering principle: a system which runs hotter and suffers from increased rate of fouling also suffers from decreased durability and reliability.
Heat accelerates tear and wear, both in electronics and mechanical systems, all things being equal.
System which gets dirtier faster also suffers from increased tear and wear, as well as decreased reliability. You can easily see this when you have more foreign element in the chamber...how it decreases reliability and increases rate of tear and wear.
If you don't believe any of this, don't change the oil in your car and see how well it functions.
Or better yet, pour foreign element(gunk) into engine oil and pour it into your engine, and see if reliability/durability changes or not, LOL.
Or better yet, disable the fan in your desktop/laptop and see what happens to your computer, LOL.
2. D.C. Capitol Police switching from G36 to M4
Unless DC Capitol Police changed to M4 because G36 was UNRELIABLE and M4 WAS RELIABLE, it doesn't have any relevance.
3. evidences that gas piston is more reliable than gas impingement system
a. according to IDF, IDF chose Tavor over M4/M16 in field trial because Tavor showed increased, not less or equal, reliability when compared to M4/M16 that they get for very little money(Tavor cost them much more since they don't get it in foreign assistance like M4/M16).
Financial incentive for IDF is to stick with M4/M16 platform since they can get it for little or no money from US, not switch over to Tavor.
b. in US military trial, gas piston XM8 showed more reliability when compared to M4. XM8 is based on G36, and G36 in turn is based on AR-18.
c. basic engineering principles:
i. cooler system are more reliable/durable compared to system which runs hotter, all things being equal
ii. cleaner system are more reliable/durable compared to system which tends to run dirtier, all things being equal
These basic engineering principles applies to cars, electronics, and also to firearms.
It's also why flaws in AR15/M16/M4 system becomes more evident in operation in dusty environment and during full auto fire.
4. assertion that M4/M16 is super durable/reliable because samples from 1960s still exist today and works, and is being used by people such as Montagnards
Unless those M4/M16s are either 100% or mostly original parts, it's meaningless. There are cars from 1930s/1940s/1950s still running today, but if they were driven regularly, were basically rebuilt so much that they are essentially new vehicles.
If you keep on replacing and rebuilding parts, you can make most things last forever. My question is that how much cannibalization Montagnards had to do to keep on making their M16 work.
My bet is that Capt. Self's M4 was rebuilt so much that it was essentially a NEW gun.
I've shot at least 3 different AR-180 that were 30+ years old, ranging from mint to heavily used/beatup. They were either 100% or close to 100%(mostly original parts). They never malfunctioned despite firing rounds after rounds w/o ANY CLEANING and was cooler, compared to AR/M16 platform.
Does that mean all gas piston platform is perfect? No, it doesn't. But at least the OPERATING PART is superior to that of gas impingement system.
Bartholomew Roberts said:
theinvisibleheart, first of all, it isn't necessary to quote my entire post, especially when it the post immediately above yours. Feel free not to quote me at all, I'll figure it out.
Second, I'm not interested in you rehashing what you thought you read somewhere. Too often, someone's interpretation of what a study said or what a test showed is at best speculative and at worst flawed.
I'm also not interested in your opinion. I don't mean that in a rude way or a demeaning way; but opinions are cheap and easily available. I am more interested in the facts that you used to form your opinion - more particularly the direct source where you acquired that information. If you'd like to share facts, in the form of links to readily available information, citations, etc., then I am always interested in learning.
Quote:
I doubt Bundeswehr using G36 are having 19% of their combatants experience failure in field like M4.
And you base these doubts on what? Considering the G36 didn't live up to the demanding needs of the D.C. Capitol Police, I wouldn't be too quick to make that assumption. (<-- See what I did there - instead of just typing that the Capitol Police ditched their G36s for Rock River ARs, I gave you a link to where I heard that so you can evaluate it firsthand)
Quote:
That's facetious at best because you are taking an exception, rather than the norm, as being representative.
No, I was taking two rifles that based around the AR-18 gas system since that is what you mentioned earlier. A lot more goes into reliability than the gas system.
Quote:
Most gas piston system such as Tavor, SAR-21, G36, etc. are highly reliable.
Most direct gas systems, such as the M4 and M16 are highly reliable (HKGuns link from earlier in the thread mentions 5,000 mean rounds between stoppage). You apparently seem to be of the belief that these other systems are more reliable than the M4; which is great; but I'm not looking for belief, I'm looking for empirical evidence. Do you have any of that?