Let's Close The Gunshow Loophole

[Al Norris]

Now, having laid out the facts about gun shows, everyone should go and download the GunFacts pdf. There is so much more very well researched information contained in this, to counter almost every new law proposed.

What good that does, is often in question. But just writing to your congress people without the facts at hand, is less than worthless.

Last item on this particular agenda.

Prohibiting private transfers, nationwide, at gun shows does in fact lead to nationwide prohibition of FTF transfers. It is only a short "hop" from one to the other. All in the name of "fighting crime," which it does not do. It merely makes another class of activity into a criminal class. Do we really need more criminals?

 

[Musketeer]

Facts mean nothing. The opposition is arguing based on emotion and will win because there is one indisputable fact:

Anyone can buy a gun FTF without a check at a gunshow in most of the nation.

We all know that the actual occurrence of crimes with weapons from gun shows is next to nothing but that does not matter. Argue those facts all you want, public opinion is based on emotion. The emotion is against this practice and the party most supportive of restrictions controls the Legislative and Executive branches.

The FACT is the legislation is going to come and we can not stop it but we can craft it if we act first.

 

[ZeSpectre]

"A Republic...if you can keep it" - Ben Franklin

Sorry Ben, we tried.

 

[vranasaurus]

Facts mean nothing. The opposition is arguing based on emotion and will win because there is one indisputable fact:

Anyone can buy a gun FTF without a check at a gunshow in most of the nation.

We all know that the actual occurrence of crimes with weapons from gun shows is next to nothing but that does not matter. Argue those facts all you want, public opinion is based on emotion. The emotion is against this practice and the party most supportive of restrictions controls the Legislative and Executive branches.

The FACT is the legislation is going to come and we can not stop it but we can craft it if we act first

If we somehow support a bill that prevents FTF sales at a gunshow it will simply be used as a foot in the door to prevent all FTF sales.

The past has shown us that gun control is a slippery slope. When newly passed laws do nothing to prevent crime, as both sides know they won't, the antis will always seek to pass more. We must fight every attempt to curtail the sale and possession of firearms as there are already to many restrictions on the books.

If we give an inch now the other side will eventually use that inch to get a mile.

 

[Eskimo]

Private sales will never go away - I will willingly break the law if it comes down to it.

 

[Cerick]

I have a proposed solution to some of these problems, which I'm sure a bunch of you guys wont agree with, but hear me out.

I'm thinking that a large number of guns used by criminals are obtained through straw purchases. While illegal already, a person selling the gun shortly after buying it, pretty much needs to be caught red handed, or snitched out to be arrested for said crime. The people "legally" buying these guns to straw sell them need to be held accountable. The easiest way I can see to do this is, ready, to have guns registered to their owners. Easy now, I know many of you dont like this idea, but if your not going to be using the gun in an illegal way, whats the big deal? That wouldn't prevent us from owning guns or limit in any way our use of them, it would simply hold people responsible for the guns they bought ending up in the hands of criminals. FTF transfers/sales would require one to go to your local FFL dealer with the other person involved in the transfer and simply get a backround check, and to have the registration transfered to the new owner. All previously bought guns need not be registered, only guns bought after the law was put in place.

Why is that such a bad idea I ask?

 

[Technosavant]

Easy now, I know many of you dont like this idea, but if your not going to be using the gun in an illegal way, whats the big deal?

A few things you have obviously overlooked.

1) It is already possible to chase down the chain of possession of a firearm. Once recovered, the agency checks the serial number with the maker, follow that to the distributor, then to the FFL who sold it, and can find the first purchaser from there. If that purchaser does not say who they transferred it to, then even if the gun were registered the trail ends.

2) Registration is ALWAYS step one of any confiscation effort. While they can still track the guns down, the intermediate steps are a form of protection. The moment you allow full registration, you give a list that can be run down if they ever decide to even give gun owners grief (even if ownership is legal).

3) It flat won't stop crime. Period. The person can always say "oh, I didn't even know the gun was stolen." What can be done? Not a single thing.

Sorry, registration or a ban on private sales is not the magic wand to crime reduction that you are looking for. It gives the antis something they dearly love for absolutely no benefit to our side.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Cerick, Re-Read post #40 to see how a 73 year experiment in gun registration has worked out so far.
(short summary, SEVENTY-THREE YEARS of taxpayer dollars thrown down a black-hole to track law abiding citizens to no useful purpose).
Additionally (adding insult to injury) stolen firearms, even those not used in a crime, were never returned to their rightful owners even though the registration system told police who those rightful owners were.

 

[Musketeer]

The past has shown us that gun control is a slippery slope.

AWB had a sunset clause.

3 Day waiting period expired with instacheck.

More Americans can carry a gun legally than in several generations.

Sorry but the "things only go downhill" argument does not hold water.

 

[Mike Irwin]

So, what you're saying is that because things have been getting better on some fronts, they will ALWAYS continue to get better?

And nothing will ever change that?

Sorry, but that kind of complacent indifference is a recipe for absolute disaster.

The only reason the AWB had a sunset clause in it is because a Republican minority that was MUCH stronger than it is today managed to force it into the bill.

 

[vranasaurus]

AWB had a sunset clause.

3 Day waiting period expired with instacheck.

More Americans can carry a gun legally than in several generations.

Sorry but the "things only go downhill" argument does not hold water.

You're telling me that the antis will stop at only prohibiting FTF sales at gunshows?

They use the word gunshow to elicit an emotional response with their ultimate goal being the banning of private sales. Once they have gunshow specific legislation they will push for more.

I'm thinking that a large number of guns used by criminals are obtained through straw purchases. While illegal already, a person selling the gun shortly after buying it, pretty much needs to be caught red handed, or snitched out to be arrested for said crime. The people "legally" buying these guns to straw sell them need to be held accountable. The easiest way I can see to do this is, ready, to have guns registered to their owners. Easy now, I know many of you dont like this idea, but if your not going to be using the gun in an illegal way, whats the big deal? That wouldn't prevent us from owning guns or limit in any way our use of them, it would simply hold people responsible for the guns they bought ending up in the hands of criminals. FTF transfers/sales would require one to go to your local FFL dealer with the other person involved in the transfer and simply get a backround check, and to have the registration transfered to the new owner. All previously bought guns need not be registered, only guns bought after the law was put in place.

Registration will do nothing to prevent crime and will only create a list that can be used later to confiscate certain firearms. What happens when they ban all semi autos or some other type of firearm, say handguns. At that point they will know where a lot of them are and can send agents to get them. And if you tell them you transfered said firearm I am certain they will want to know what delaer did the transfer, because by the time they have a registration they will certainly prohibit FTF sales.

They want to register firearms so they can come get certain ones when they feel the need.

The ultimate goal of the antis is not crime prevention it is the abolition of firearm ownership in the US.

No registration ever.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

Al,

Actually, I have downloaded my own copy of Gunfacts and it is great. However, per private sales, do the statistics they quote (and maybe I am missing it) about the low percentage of crime guns coming from gun shows refer to those guns purchased from FFLs and not private sales? See I am not sure if private sales is or can be measured well at gun shows since there is no records kept of them. Maybe I am nit picking but the nub of the issue is private sales not all gun show sales. Is that clear? Anyway, the law the anti's say they want should not prohibit private sales or hurt gun shows. It would add to the expense of selling a firearm privately and probably be stupid for a grandfather handing down his shotgun to his grandson. But the way I understand it you could not sell a gun to anyone without the buyer going through a background check.

Like declaring any more than 3 gun owners to be a "gun show," if all they did was to meet and discuss guns (just as one example - there are many more equally appalling "rules").

I am also not sure what the fallout of that would be and it also sounds stupid. Three of us get together at te range to talk about guns and maybe fire each others weapons and that is a gun show I can see why that one never got out of committee. But if all the law did was require private sellers to run their purchase through an FFL for a fee, what other consequences would occur? Or you would then say the requirement to FFL the purchase "destroys" the private sale?

 

[buzz_knox]

buzzknox, How would this legislation shut down gun shows? The vast majority of sales go thru dealers anyway right? The show itself gets no cut from the private sales other than an admission ticket.

It depends on the legislation. Some of the proposals require notifying the Attorney General (yes, of the United States itself) whenever you are planning a gun show. Along with the notification requirement is increased documentation requirements for dealers, requiring licenses to hold a gun show, sending the AG a list of every vendor at the show, etc.

Basically, nearly all of the proposals burden gun show partcipants and hosts to the point that the shows aren't worth the trouble.

 

[Tennessee Gentleman]

It depends on the legislation.

I agree and we must be vigilent but the issue is FTF sales with no background check. They might put all types of stuff in there but I fear if they do then that might backfire politically.

 

[vranasaurus]

Any law declaring more than 3 gun owners to be a gun show and then requireing some sort of additional hurdle in order to assemble as such would seem to me to be a clear violation of the the right to assemble.

 

[Rich Miranda]

I love my rights and all but aren't FTF transfers/sales the way alot of criminals obtain guns? Correct me if im wrong, because they sure cant buy guns from a store.

Dude, you been in Jersey FAR too long. Move to Texas or Arizona as soon as you can before your nads retract completely and permanently.

Seriously though. Criminals are, um, CRIMINALS! They are going to get guns period. That's why gun control doesn't work. Because criminals errrr, BREAK THE LAWS. All of them! Whenever they feel like it.

Gun control laws often only work against the law-abiding citizen such as when he unknowingly and accidentally does something without knowing that he's breaking the law.

The anti-gun propaganda works so well that we don't even know what is legal and most people think everything is illegal!

 

[azredhawk44]

Dude, you been in Jersey FAR too long. Move to Texas or Arizona as soon as you can before your nads retract completely and permanently.

Dude, I LOL'ed. Then I LOL'ed some more. From the safety and freedom of my flyover state living room and my safe occupied by a mix of 4473'ed and FTF'ed firearms that would scare most hoplophobes. Thank you for making my night just a bit brighter.

The only point I "might" concede in regards to FTF transfers is that an honest law abiding guy might have a gun to sell, and a scumbag dresses himself up decently and acts responsibly just long enough to pass the visual inspection and interview associated with a firearms sale.

Or, reverse the rolls. I'd hate to buy a hot gun, or a murder weapon.

I'd love to see a VOLUNTARY, free NICS system accessible by private parties for my own satisfaction. It would not log a transaction from buyer or seller, or care what type of gun is being transferred. It would just take a (Driver's License #?) and respond with "Eligible to buy" or "Not eligible to buy." Right now I only sell to those who carry CCW cards, which acts as an informal background check... and many do the same.

The second it becomes as trace-able and onerous as a 4473 NICS system though, I don't support it. Records, logs, traces... bleh.:barf:

 

[divemedic]

add to that is the fact that criminals who own a weapon will be protected from having to register it, because it is illegal for a felon to own a gun, and registering the gun would be self incriminating. Therefore, the 5th amendment protects felons from gun registration.

 

[Musketeer]

So, what you're saying is that because things have been getting better on some fronts, they will ALWAYS continue to get better?

No, I am saying that the hysteria some throw out that any legislation on the issue of gun control inevitably leads to more restrictive legislation is nonsense.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"No, I am saying that the hysteria some throw out that any legislation on the issue of gun control inevitably leads to more restrictive legislation is nonsense."

Funny, in the late 1980s and early 1990s many people were claiming the same thing about the proposals then being floated for an AW ban.

Hysteria!

Fear mongering!

NRA only trying to scare people to raise money!

Then came that wonderful little day in late 1994 when it actually passed, and was signed into law.

I remember selling AR-15s and standard-capacity magazines to many of those people, at a significant mark up that was a direct result of the law.

Many of them were saying things like "I never thought it would happen!"

Many of them, most who had never even lifted a finger to do anything to make their position known to their legislators, were screaming bloody murder about how "NRA LET ME DOWN!"

Well, what did you do to help yourself? "What? Why should I have done anything? NRA was supposed to do it all!"

Fools. Imbecillic, moronic fools who should have just signed on with the Democrats and Brady Campaign for all the good they did for themselves and their fellow gunowners.

Fools. Imbecillic, moronic fools who should not be allowed to own firearms if all they can do is whine.

Unfortunately, that same sense of complacency and dogged determination to believe that nothing will ever change for the worse seems to have taken root again, and worse, flourished.

How quickly people forget, how quickly people are WILLING to forget.

And if a new AW ban passes?

They'll again be the people crying loudest and longest about how "X let me down," or "I never thought this would happen so I didn't bother to do anything!"

Pathetic.


The FIRST thing I did the day after the November election?

Contacted my new Senator and Representative, even before they were sworn into office, making my position on gun rights known, and tellling them what I expect out of them.

Unfortunately, that seems to be too much trouble for most people.