hillbillyshooter
New member
OrchidHunter,
I am very against you on this. No, I am not with you on this and hope few are.
I am very against you on this. No, I am not with you on this and hope few are.
Let's Close The Gunshow Loophole
- Thread starter orchidhunter
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The only FFL's I know of that might support it, do so only because the sale of "used" guns between private parties can become another revenue stream by which they can make a profit.
Sales of legal products, conducted between private citizens, are not the business of the government. That's regardless of whether it's a TV, drill press or a firearm.
Sales of legal products, conducted between private citizens, are not the business of the government. That's regardless of whether it's a TV, drill press or a firearm.
vranasaurus
New member
It's not the face to face sales that represent the problem with criminals getting guns. Many times it is a straw purchase that leads to the criminals getting the guns which is already illegal under federal law.
Some guy goes to a gun store passes the background check and purchases two pistols with the intent to sell them to some criminals this is a straw purchase, and this is how many criminals get their guns.
Criminals don't look at classifieds, internet forums, or gun shows to get their guns. They know how to get around the law and the best way is to know someone with a clean record that can pass the background check.
The ways criminals get guns today, theft or straw purchase, is already illegal under federal law. Closing this feaux loophole will do nothing to stop the problem since the criminals will continue to have someone purchase the guns for them. Do you think they are going to go to the FFL to get them transferred especially since they and their accomplices have already violated federal law?
boatmonkey82
Moderator
correct me if im wrong but it sounds like ... if i got to a junk yard to buy a part i can only do so thur a local repair shop , or was this a bad example ?
vranasaurus
New member
Think of it like this:
You want to sell you 1999 Toyota Camry to you neighbor in order to do so you would have to go to your local delaer to process the transaction.
If you want to use Autoparts it would go like this:
Your friend Joe has a water pump for a car you own and he doesn't want it so he is selling it to you. In order for him to transfer said water pump you need to go to your local parts store to process the transaction.
It is about face to face sales being prohibited without going through a dealer.
Just sold two handguns to a lovely lady in Austin ... FTF, no taxes, no paperwork, no FFLs involved ... the gunshow loophole, as I understand it, is aimed at FTF sales at gunshows that don't go through the Feds ... but closing that tiny door would close a far larger one, like the sale I just completed ... this is one of those slippery slopes you don't even want to see started ... no to govt intrusion in my private business ...
orchidhunter said:
TROLL. SELF ADMITTED TROLL.
I am all for discussing the topic of the so called gun-show loophole. Unlike many here I believe there is such a thing and it is a problem, but not in the way the antis say. I believe it exists because enough of the voting public believe it does and it is a problem because that same voting public will support legislation on the matter.
Sorry folks, this is going to be like fighting the tide. The best you can do is to redirect it. The tone in Washington is almost entirely against us. Standing our ground on this will cause us to be brushed aside entirely. I would suggest we bite the bullet and forward legislation that would provide for publicly funded checks at organized gun shows for all while protecting FTF transactions outside of that event.
As long as 60 Minutes can show footage of someone looking like he is a gang banger, Aryan Nation member, Hells Angel, "suspected terrorist" etc. buying an "AK-47" at an "Arms Bazaar" in Middle America with no background check then this problem will exist. If we simply oppose it in its entirety then the legislation will be written to require FFLs for everything.
TROLL. SELF ADMITTED TROLL.
I am all for discussing the topic of the so called gun-show loophole. Unlike many here I believe there is such a thing and it is a problem, but not in the way the antis say. I believe it exists because enough of the voting public believe it does and it is a problem because that same voting public will support legislation on the matter.
Sorry folks, this is going to be like fighting the tide. The best you can do is to redirect it. The tone in Washington is almost entirely against us. Standing our ground on this will cause us to be brushed aside entirely. I would suggest we bite the bullet and forward legislation that would provide for publicly funded checks at organized gun shows for all while protecting FTF transactions outside of that event.
As long as 60 Minutes can show footage of someone looking like he is a gang banger, Aryan Nation member, Hells Angel, "suspected terrorist" etc. buying an "AK-47" at an "Arms Bazaar" in Middle America with no background check then this problem will exist. If we simply oppose it in its entirety then the legislation will be written to require FFLs for everything.
Tennessee Gentleman
New member
Well, I would like to try and address this thoughtfully (and may get flamed) but I think I see the issue the Antis raise but it begs another question I will ask.
First, there is no such thing as a "Gun Show Loophole". That is a misnamed tag the issue has and it won't go away. The real issue is private sales. I think the Gun Show part creeps in because it seems that Gun Shows are where these sales seem to take place most visibly and publicly. I know they take place thru other means like the classified sections of some newspapers but I have been to many many gun shows where there are folks walking around or even sitting at tables in the show who will sell guns privately to anybody with the cash without a backgorund check.
What I think the antis fear (and I can see their point) is that private sales are a place where people who are not legally allowed to own or possess firearms can circumvent the background check and buy a firearm anyway.
What I don't know is how many criminals obtain their crime guns in this manner. I think for me that is the real issue. Is the "loophole" the major aveneue where criminals get their crime guns. If so, then the policy argument changes. If it becomes a crime to sell anyone a gun who has not had a background check will it deter those who would sell to anybody from doing so?
First, there is no such thing as a "Gun Show Loophole". That is a misnamed tag the issue has and it won't go away. The real issue is private sales. I think the Gun Show part creeps in because it seems that Gun Shows are where these sales seem to take place most visibly and publicly. I know they take place thru other means like the classified sections of some newspapers but I have been to many many gun shows where there are folks walking around or even sitting at tables in the show who will sell guns privately to anybody with the cash without a backgorund check.
What I think the antis fear (and I can see their point) is that private sales are a place where people who are not legally allowed to own or possess firearms can circumvent the background check and buy a firearm anyway.
What I don't know is how many criminals obtain their crime guns in this manner. I think for me that is the real issue. Is the "loophole" the major aveneue where criminals get their crime guns. If so, then the policy argument changes. If it becomes a crime to sell anyone a gun who has not had a background check will it deter those who would sell to anybody from doing so?
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Tennessee Gentleman
New member
buzzknox, How would this legislation shut down gun shows? The vast majority of sales go thru dealers anyway right? The show itself gets no cut from the private sales other than an admission ticket.
vranasaurus
New member
As I said most criminal get their guns through a straw purchaser as it is. Adding a prohibition on FTF sale is just adding one more law that the criminals will violate.
It may keep a few guns out of the hands of those that are prohibited but not that many. Most who want guns but are disqualified will continue to use a straw purchaser as they do now.
It may keep a few guns out of the hands of those that are prohibited but not that many. Most who want guns but are disqualified will continue to use a straw purchaser as they do now.
Just for reference...
All the shows I have been to in New York have the requirement of a check for ALL firearm purchases, both long arms and handguns. We have a permit system for handgun ownership but not one for long arms where you can easily do FTF sales across the state with no paperwork. You are not allowed to circumvent the check by doing the sale in the parking lot outside the show.
It seems to work fine.
All the shows I have been to in New York have the requirement of a check for ALL firearm purchases, both long arms and handguns. We have a permit system for handgun ownership but not one for long arms where you can easily do FTF sales across the state with no paperwork. You are not allowed to circumvent the check by doing the sale in the parking lot outside the show.
It seems to work fine.
From the latest GunFacts 5.0 (pages 19 & 20 of the pdf):
Myth: Gun shows are supermarkets for criminals
Fact: Only 0.7% of convicts bought their firearms at gun shows. 39.2% obtained them from illegal street dealers.(86)
Fact: Less than 1% of “crime guns” were obtained at gun shows(87). This is a reduction from a 1997 study that found 1.7% - 2% of guns used in criminal offenses were purchased at gun shows.(88)
Fact: The FBI concluded in one study that no firearms acquired at gun shows were used to kill cops. “In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study were obtained from gun shows.”(89)
Fact: Only 5% of metropolitan police departments believe gun shows are a problem.(90)
Fact: Only 3.5% of youthful offenders reported that they obtained their last handgun at a gun show.(91)
Fact: 93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows).(92)
Fact: At most, 14% of all firearms traced in investigations were purchased at gun shows.(93) But this includes all firearms that the police traced, regardless of if they were used in crimes or not, which overstates the acquisition rate.
Fact: Gun dealers are federally licensed. They are bound to stringent rules for sales that apply equally whether they are dealing from a storefront or a gun show.(94)
Fact: Most crime guns are either bought off the street from illegal sources (39.2%) or through family members or friends (39.6%).(95)
_______________
86 Bureau of Justice Statistics, “Firearm Use by Offenders”, February 2002
87 Ibid
88 National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. According to an NIJ study released in December 1997 "Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities"
89 U.S. Department of Justice, "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers", August 2006
90 Center to Prevent Handgun Violence survey of 37 police departments in large cities, reported in a CPHV report titled “On the Front Line: Making Gun Interdiction Work”, February 1998
91 Timothy S. Bynum, Todd G. Beitzel, Tracy A. O’Connell & Sean P. Varano, “Patterns in Gun Acquisition and Use by Youthful Offenders in Michigan”, 1999
92 BATF, 1999
93 BATF, June 2000, covers only July 1996 through December 1998
94 BATF, 2000
95 “Firearm use by Offenders”, Bureau of Justice Statistics, November 2001
_______________
Now you have some of the facts, by which to attack any such legislation, on its merits... or lack thereof.
Tennessee, the last couple of bills (which never made it out of committee) were stuffed with a bunch of crud. Like declaring any more than 3 gun owners to be a "gun show," if all they did was to meet and discuss guns (just as one example - there are many more equally appalling "rules").
Myth: Gun shows are supermarkets for criminals
Fact: Only 0.7% of convicts bought their firearms at gun shows. 39.2% obtained them from illegal street dealers.(86)
Fact: Less than 1% of “crime guns” were obtained at gun shows(87). This is a reduction from a 1997 study that found 1.7% - 2% of guns used in criminal offenses were purchased at gun shows.(88)
Fact: The FBI concluded in one study that no firearms acquired at gun shows were used to kill cops. “In contrast to media myth, none of the firearms in the study were obtained from gun shows.”(89)
Fact: Only 5% of metropolitan police departments believe gun shows are a problem.(90)
Fact: Only 3.5% of youthful offenders reported that they obtained their last handgun at a gun show.(91)
Fact: 93% of guns used in crimes are obtained illegally (i.e., not at gun stores or gun shows).(92)
Fact: At most, 14% of all firearms traced in investigations were purchased at gun shows.(93) But this includes all firearms that the police traced, regardless of if they were used in crimes or not, which overstates the acquisition rate.
Fact: Gun dealers are federally licensed. They are bound to stringent rules for sales that apply equally whether they are dealing from a storefront or a gun show.(94)
Fact: Most crime guns are either bought off the street from illegal sources (39.2%) or through family members or friends (39.6%).(95)
_______________
86 Bureau of Justice Statistics, “Firearm Use by Offenders”, February 2002
87 Ibid
88 National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. According to an NIJ study released in December 1997 "Homicide in Eight U.S. Cities"
89 U.S. Department of Justice, "Violent Encounters: A Study of Felonious Assaults on Our Nation's Law Enforcement Officers", August 2006
90 Center to Prevent Handgun Violence survey of 37 police departments in large cities, reported in a CPHV report titled “On the Front Line: Making Gun Interdiction Work”, February 1998
91 Timothy S. Bynum, Todd G. Beitzel, Tracy A. O’Connell & Sean P. Varano, “Patterns in Gun Acquisition and Use by Youthful Offenders in Michigan”, 1999
92 BATF, 1999
93 BATF, June 2000, covers only July 1996 through December 1998
94 BATF, 2000
95 “Firearm use by Offenders”, Bureau of Justice Statistics, November 2001
_______________
Now you have some of the facts, by which to attack any such legislation, on its merits... or lack thereof.
Tennessee, the last couple of bills (which never made it out of committee) were stuffed with a bunch of crud. Like declaring any more than 3 gun owners to be a "gun show," if all they did was to meet and discuss guns (just as one example - there are many more equally appalling "rules").
kayakersteve
New member
Maybe orchid thinks this is the Brady website
He must be confused - happens this time of year!! Must be overwhelmed with the political times! Oh well, if he checks back, here is their website:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/
He must be confused - happens this time of year!! Must be overwhelmed with the political times! Oh well, if he checks back, here is their website:
http://www.bradycampaign.org/
Seems to work fine for what? The cost to operate the system is tremendous, the burden is carried by the law abiding people of NY, the criminals simply ignore the "mandatory registration" and the registration of firearms and the related trace data has been used to solve....wait for it.... ZERO crimes since it was enacted in 1936.
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