in your opinion, are guns like the uzi, mac series, and tech 9s pointless these days?

[cslinger]

I must be mising something. The Uzi is available in multiple chamberings, including the 9mm Parabellum and .45 ACP. The Mini Uzi is 9mm.

How is 9mm or .45 ACP fired from a faux SMG less loud than the same round fired from a 1911 or a Glock?

My guess is barrel length providing a modicum of difference. Avg self defense pistol being 3-5 inches max where as avg UZI like SMG/Semi pistol having a 7-10 inch barrel.

All that said I literally cannot imagine an instance where I would choose something like a semi auto MAC/UZI etc. pistol over any decent handgun. As for full auto pistols ala Glock 18/93R etc. I can’t imagine using them on full auto for anything except giggle factor at the range and having done my fair share of full auto across the board that actually gets old fairly fast and becomes money into noise.

Now if we are talking PURELY for a fun oddity sure, why not. If we are talking about a stocked 16inch PCC absolutely both fun and useable.

We won’t even speak of the TEC9.

 

[Hawg]

No, there's no self defense reason for having one. Self defense isn't the only reason for having a handgun. They're fun guns or at least they were before ammo got so expensive. I had a Cobray but I traded it off for something else. It was a blast to play with but as a main self defense gun nah.

 

[Shadow9mm]

mac and uzi both were designed with folding stock making them much more useable IMHO. the tec9 and micro uzi not so much IMHO. All were designed as personal defense type weapons, kind of a stop gap between a pistol and a rifle designed to get you out of a sticky situation.

they fall in the PDW, PCC, pistol with braces, and the roni adapter type category. more effective and easier to use in a vehicle. easier to conceal than a rifle. more effective at ranges around 100yds, easier to aim and control.

They definitely still have a place IMHO, and the whole SBR thing needs to be done away with.

 

[reddog81]

and the whole SBR thing needs to be done away with.

I’d be much happier with an 300 BLK SBR over any of the other items mentioned in this thread. An actual stock meant to be shouldered is much better than some half-cocked brace or giant handgun.

If an SBR is too big then I’ll stick with a normal sized handgun rather than a gimmicky folding contraption.

 

[44 AMP]

mac and uzi both were designed with folding stock making them much more useable IMHO. the tec9 and micro uzi not so much IMHO. All were designed as personal defense type weapons, kind of a stop gap between a pistol and a rifle designed to get you out of a sticky situation.

I've got to disagree with some of this. First, the Mac and the Uzi were designed as SMGs, the Uzi originally with a fixed wooden stock. Dropping the stock and full auto to meet US law and be classes as pistols made them more suitable for personal defense than their SMG ancestors, but still not the same as a pistol built for SD "from the ground up".

I've got a Tec 9. Its not a great gun, but I kind of like it. I don't see how anyone who knows the gun could ever think it was designed for self defense.

I believe it was designed to be a cheap, recreational gun, shooting a common and (once) inexpensive round (9mm) for the fun of it. It mimics the style of the classic SMGs, but is legally a pistol so you could own one without the NFA restrictions.

Not every gun has to be a good self defense gun to have value. And not every gun shooting a common self defense caliber has to be a self defense gun as its primary role.

To me, the biggest point showing the Tec 9 was never intended as a serious self defense gun is the safety. (yes, it has one...) Its not a button or lever you can reach with the shooting hand while holding the gun. The safety is the bolt handle. Pushing it in locks the firing pin, putting the gun "on safe". This is NOT a system you chose for a gun who's intended use is self defense.

Looking at these types of guns as self defense guns, and only for their use as such is, in my view, shortsighted.

 

[Metric]

Maybe not *completely* pointless in the strictest sense, but it's really, really hard for me to imagine a situation where I wouldn't be *far* better served with a quality SD pistol (below) or an AR (above). The use case is just extremely narrow, imo.

 

[hammer_jockey_91]

I must be mising something. The Uzi is available in multiple chamberings, including the 9mm Parabellum and .45 ACP. The Mini Uzi is 9mm.

How is 9mm or .45 ACP fired from a faux SMG less loud than the same round fired from a 1911 or a Glock?

in that instance i was more referring to using a rifle in the portion referring to sound.
however to be fair shorter barrels ARE going to be louder

 

[Aguila Blanca]

in that instance i was more referring to using a rifle in the portion referring to sound.
however to be fair shorter barrels ARE going to be louder

That isn't what you wrote:

i do think in the narrow hallways of my home, a small lightweight weapon that shoots a controllable round and isnt balls to the wall loud holds alot of value.

In the closed environment of a small room or a hallway, the difference in decibel level between a fake SMG like a mini Uzi and a pistol, firing the same cartridge, is so negligible as to not be a factor in making a choice.

"small lightweight weapon that shoots a controllable round" sounds to me a lot like a pistol.

 

[brian33x51]

I'd take a newer more modern pdw. If the laws were sane and followed original intent IMHO these would a very good candidate for default firearm to own for both personal protection and general militia duty.

 

[Willie Lowman]

Some of those guns like the mini Uzi can be equipped with a brace or registered as a SBR and a proper stock installed. In this configuration it becomes much more controllable and able to be shot quickly and accurately.

But simply a Mac or Tech 9 type gun is pretty close to useless compared to a regular pistol

 

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP
Quote:
does anyone have any unique insight to this?
I have some, but I don't think they should be considered unique.

First one is, that since May 19, 1986, no private citizen in the US has been allowed to own any full auto firearm that was not on the ATF's civilian registry list at that time.

SO, NO Glock 18, even if you can and do have other legal machineguns, because the Glock 18 (select fire gun) had not been created before the effective date of the law, and so there are none legal for private citizens to own.

Police agencies, and machine gun dealers may own them, individual private citizens cannot.

"private citizen" has nothing to do with anything in regards to legally possessing a Glock 18 or any other post 1968 machine gun.

I'm a "private citizen", but also an FFL/SOT. Having an FFL/SOT does not make me a public figure or agent of any government agency.

I know three "private citizens" who own Glock 18's because they also hold an FFL and pay their SOT every year. An FFL can be applied for as an individual, partnership, LLC or corporation. Same with paying for the yearly SOT.

More accurately, pre 1968 machine guns are described as "fully transferable", "pre May 1986 dealer samples" or "post May 1986".

"Fully Transferrables" can be transferred to anyone on a Form 4.
"Pre May" are those MG's imported after the GCA of 1968 and before FOPA in 1986......these are "keepers" meaning that they may be kept by the dealer when he gives up his FFL/SOT. They may be sold/transferred to other FFL/SOT's only.
"Post May" are those made or imported after FOPA '86. An FFL/SOT needs a law enforcement demonstration letter in order to have the Form 3 approved by ATF. If the FFL/SOT goes out of business, no "law letter" is required to transfer to 07FFL/SOT's.

 

[44 AMP]

my apologies, I could have worded it better.

Would "ordinary citizen who is not an FFL/SOT" be more accurate?

or "someone not engaged in the business" be better?

 

[hammer_jockey_91]

That isn't what you wrote:



In the closed environment of a small room or a hallway, the difference in decibel level between a fake SMG like a mini Uzi and a pistol, firing the same cartridge, is so negligible as to not be a factor in making a choice.

"small lightweight weapon that shoots a controllable round" sounds to me a lot like a pistol.

okay but i am telling you what i was drawing the comparison too. directly. lol

yes it sounds like a pistol because i am saying a two handed sub gun. comparing something like an UZI with something like an AR15. the uzi would be quieter, shorter, easier to maneuver, and not balls to the wall loud.

 

[44 AMP]

Pistols often sound louder, because the muzzle is closer to your ear,

But inside a small enclosed space with the sound wave (and often pressure you can feel) bouncing off walls, floor, ceiling, even a "quiet" round gets quite loud.

One of the biggest "lies" (or if you feel charitable, "omissions") found in tv and movie gunfire is the lack of realistic consequences of the noise of gunfire, and particularly inside buildings or worse, a car.

Actors without ear protection shooting pistols, rifles and shotguns inside buildings and then behaving with normal hearing and speaking in normal volumes is literally BS. I've had the dubious pleasure of first hand experience. Not fun, and not at ALL like what they show on the screen.

Now, a 10" 9mm and a 4" 9mm ARE going to be measurably different, the longer barrel isn't going to be quite as loud, but I doubt your ear will be able to tell inside a hallway.

And both are going to be less than a .223, the reason being the rifle round is burning over 3 times as much powder. Makes a difference.

 

[rodfac]

Not every gun has to be a good self defense gun to have value. And not every gun shooting a common self defense caliber has to be a self defense gun as its primary role.

Well said, and often poo-poo'd by many of today's shooters. While stoutly advocating the 2nd Amendment's importance to a free democracy, many of us are still primarily hobbyists with SD as a useful/essential offshoot. Denigration of either purpose only strengthens our enemies and political foes. Best regards, Rod

 

[44 AMP]

Different guns for different things. Poo-poo my guns and choices all you want, your poo only stinks in your nose, not mine.

I've owned a number of 9mm guns and have had experience with a lot more.

One man's "pointless" is another's "I like this, it's fun".

If you think uzis, Macs and Tec 9s are pointless, don't buy one. If you think you could get some enjoyment from them, buy one. If you think they are the best possible choice for self defense, I suggest you think some more...

one of my favorite 9mms is so far "off the grid" of practical self defense guns even I don't consider it for that. T/C Contender with a 6" 9mm Luger barrel.

Its a sporting pistol never meant to be anything else. You might think it pointless but I'm very fond of it. Shoots smaller groups than any semi auto 9mm I've ever seen.

Shooting it (or anything) well adds to my shooting skill, and that is an entirely valid purpose in my book.

 

[reynolds357]

i go back and forth with it quite a bit. but with the popularity of guns like the glock series and the beretta 92 series that have automatic variants, is there any real defensive reason someone would likely choose something like a micro uzi over a glock 17 with a micro roni or something?

now im not saying for CCW, of course nobody is going to conceal carry an uzi unless your on a high risk professional team protecting a high value target while wearing a suit to conceal it.

but if you were just an average joe. and you have to clear a house, or just grab a gun to bug out with.

i dont see the advantage other than the high fire rates guns like the uzis and tech 9s could achieve, but the glock 18 achieved almost twice the rounds per minute.

does anyone have any unique insight to this?

Do you want to face an UZI in close quarters Combat?

 

[reynolds357]

Different guns for different things. Poo-poo my guns and choices all you want, your poo only stinks in your nose, not mine.

I've owned a number of 9mm guns and have had experience with a lot more.

One man's "pointless" is another's "I like this, it's fun".

If you think uzis, Macs and Tec 9s are pointless, don't buy one. If you think you could get some enjoyment from them, buy one. If you think they are the best possible choice for self defense, I suggest you think some more...

one of my favorite 9mms is so far "off the grid" of practical self defense guns even I don't consider it for that. T/C Contender with a 6" 9mm Luger barrel.

Its a sporting pistol never meant to be anything else. You might think it pointless but I'm very fond of it. Shoots smaller groups than any semi auto 9mm I've ever seen.

Shooting it (or anything) well adds to my shooting skill, and that is an entirely valid purpose in my book.

The UZI was a favorite for executive security and contractors. It still has a pile of folks who use it.

 

[44 AMP]

The UZI was a favorite for executive security and contractors. It still has a pile of folks who use it.

as a semi auto pistol, or as a SMG??

Look the same, act quite differently...

 

[reynolds357]

as a semi auto pistol, or as a SMG??

Look the same, act quite differently...

A sub machine gun of course.