How many more Polymer-framed, Striker-fired Service Pistols do we really want or need?
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johnwilliamson062
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I don't think they are making marketing decisions in the way proposed by OP.
The metal framed pistols aren't selling at volume. There are TOnS of used guns on the market undermining new production. They are going away irrespective of whether polymer models are introduced.
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The metal framed pistols aren't selling at volume. There are TOnS of used guns on the market undermining new production. They are going away irrespective of whether polymer models are introduced.
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What I would love to see?
Pistols with 4" barrels, but subcompact grips.
Glock 19 slide with Glock 26 body. PPQ M2 slide with PPQ SC body. Then the option to use the full mags when wanted...but shorter and more concealable mags when desired.
Right now, buying a P320 Compact, then swapping the slide onto a subcompact frame is about the only choice. And if I had all the budget in the world, and confidence in the Romeo 1 optic for real "duty" use, I'd by the P320 RX and put that baby onto the smaller frame and call it a day.
Glock made a 19X that put the 19 slide onto a 17 frame...'twould be great to see them do the same but with a 26 frame!
Pistols with 4" barrels, but subcompact grips.
Glock 19 slide with Glock 26 body. PPQ M2 slide with PPQ SC body. Then the option to use the full mags when wanted...but shorter and more concealable mags when desired.
Right now, buying a P320 Compact, then swapping the slide onto a subcompact frame is about the only choice. And if I had all the budget in the world, and confidence in the Romeo 1 optic for real "duty" use, I'd by the P320 RX and put that baby onto the smaller frame and call it a day.
Glock made a 19X that put the 19 slide onto a 17 frame...'twould be great to see them do the same but with a 26 frame!
Good points.
There is a whole billion dollar industry that builds and supplies aftermarket parts and add- ons for firearms that largely targets the commercial market. Optics, lasers, sights, grips, etc., etc. This is a part of the firearms industry.
The success of polymer framed guns is not just a matter of better profit for gunmakers. It's what they guns brought: ease of maintenance, low cost of the same, durability, etc. these are popular features. But these features of polymer framed guns had to be "proven" in the shooting public's mind before the guns took off on the consumer market and that "proof" came from leo and military sales and experience.
It takes more to penetrate the international firearms market than just a good design. Glock knew this and targeted the leo market in the U.S. in the late 80s for that reason.
The AR is a good example of this. It did not really begin to take off in the civilian market till the 1990s and really took off after the turn of the century. Americans were suspicious of the rifle and it's caliber for a long time. A need and desire for the gun had to be created. That took a cultural shift.
Experience in combat and veterans buying them in the consumer market led to their rise in the U.S. Consumer dollars have driven it as well as the low cost of production of these rifles and carbines and a relatively high cost to the consumer in relation to that.
Military and police use of the AR have created a demand for the guns with similar features, and aftermarket parts and additions to it.
There is a symbiosis here.
After awhile it's like any other industry. The big boys come to dominate the market. Others fall away or drop out.
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Brownstone322
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Polymer/striker pistols bore me, but I have two (Glocks, shocker), and I'd like to have a few more (from SIG and S&W, probably).
I agree that we should appreciate all-metal DA/SA guns while we can (I have a Beretta 92, a CZ 75 and two Colt 1911s, and I definitely want a SIG 226/229), but I think the classic models are going to endure for a long time yet.
Meanwhile, I've taken a new interest in polymer-framed hammer-fired. Lots of coolness there.
I agree that we should appreciate all-metal DA/SA guns while we can (I have a Beretta 92, a CZ 75 and two Colt 1911s, and I definitely want a SIG 226/229), but I think the classic models are going to endure for a long time yet.
Meanwhile, I've taken a new interest in polymer-framed hammer-fired. Lots of coolness there.
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HighValleyRanch
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Individuals have been "chopping" polymer pistols for over a couple of decades now. I did my 19 to 26 conversion way back in early 1990's just when the glock 26 first came out.
There hasn't been a new rifle or shotgun design with an exposed hammer in well over 100 years. Why do we still cling to the notion they are needed with handguns. Having an exposed hammer has no positives and a lot of negatives.
I think we'll see new handgun designs made with steel or aluminum alloys about the same time we see a new car designed with wooden wheels. Or a resurgence in wood boats for bass fishing.
Anything with aluminum alloy frames are on the way out. Same with DA/SA trigger systems. I think we will always have a market for some of the traditional steel framed classic handguns such as the 1911. And some aluminum framed guns with DA/SA triggers have reached classic status and may well hang on, at least for a while. But I see no new designs incorporating either aluminum or DA/SA triggers. Modern plastic framed guns do exactly the same job as aluminum, look just as good, cost a lot less and are much more durable.
HighValleyRanch
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Wait, didn't Springfield just come out with a new hammer fired DA/SA polymer in 2017 called the XDE?
But there have been plenty of rifle and shotgun designs in that timeframe that did use hammers, they're just typically easier to conceal, imo, on a rifle or shotgun than a pistol as the needed shroud isn't as obvious. That said there are plenty of pistols that are hammer fired where the hammer isn't particularly exposed, such as the new Ruger Security Nine.
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There are positives to having an exposed hammer - re-holstering (the ability to keep a thumb on the hammer to help prevent a negligent discharge) immediately comes to mind. Also, striker-fired pistols (in theory) are susceptible to malfunctions caused by oil, water, or debris in the striker channel. Of course, the fall of a hammer can be blocked by debris, but such a condition would be much easier to identify. There are also benefits to DA/SA pistols (just as there are benefits to constant-action striker-fired pistols), and most DA/SA pistols are hammer-fired (with the notable exception of the striker-fired Walther P99AS and its various copies/clones).
That said, as mentioned earlier, I don't have a horse in this race - I own and have carried both hammer and striker fired pistols. Both are proven systems.
Many years ago,my town was about 42,000.We had a couple steak houses,a couple pizza places,a few Mexican restaurants,and some diner/cafes.Oh,lets not forget the drive ins and a couple MikkeeDees
Now my town is a city of around 200,000. There is one restaurant for every 267 people.
How many do we need?.
Its a very tough market. They have to compete. The mediocre fold up.The over priced fold up. Those with lousy service fold up.
For the consumer,we have a lot of choice,some good food,good service,and competitive prices.
Are handguns really that different?
IMO,we benefit. Might some good guns fade away? Yes.
But,you know,the Colt Single Action Army became extinct...pretty much,for awhile.
Between Ruger,Uberti,etc, we still have the genre,and some folks say the better clone sare better than what Colt made.
And,credit where credit is due,the Ruger Bearcat,Single Six,Blackhawk,etc were brilliant and successful INNOVATION.
Colt nearly faded away new production 1911s,till all the clones came.DoesColt have even 5% of the 1911 market?
IMO,its the great rise in people carrying concealed influencing the market.
Smaller,lighter,slimmer,easier to carry are a big deal. Simple operation under extreme stress,safe carry,capacity all are driving both demand and innovation.So is affordability. $400 guns will sell far easier than $1600 guns,even if its plastic vs steel, because its about being armed,not fancy
I recall having great respect for the classic rotary dial land line phone.Wh needs more? Then everyone is"packing" a smart phone.
Dang cartridge rifles took over from muzzle stuffers.
Bolt guns instead of a Sharps? Benelli semi-auto shotgun instead of an LC Smith side by side?
A treager pellet smoker with auger feed and computer controls and WiFi readouts is a whole different way to smoke a brisket
Dang,I miss those flathead Ford V-8's Split rims and tubes!! A man could fixa flat with hand tools and a patch.
Now my town is a city of around 200,000. There is one restaurant for every 267 people.
How many do we need?.
Its a very tough market. They have to compete. The mediocre fold up.The over priced fold up. Those with lousy service fold up.
For the consumer,we have a lot of choice,some good food,good service,and competitive prices.
Are handguns really that different?
IMO,we benefit. Might some good guns fade away? Yes.
But,you know,the Colt Single Action Army became extinct...pretty much,for awhile.
Between Ruger,Uberti,etc, we still have the genre,and some folks say the better clone sare better than what Colt made.
And,credit where credit is due,the Ruger Bearcat,Single Six,Blackhawk,etc were brilliant and successful INNOVATION.
Colt nearly faded away new production 1911s,till all the clones came.DoesColt have even 5% of the 1911 market?
IMO,its the great rise in people carrying concealed influencing the market.
Smaller,lighter,slimmer,easier to carry are a big deal. Simple operation under extreme stress,safe carry,capacity all are driving both demand and innovation.So is affordability. $400 guns will sell far easier than $1600 guns,even if its plastic vs steel, because its about being armed,not fancy
I recall having great respect for the classic rotary dial land line phone.Wh needs more? Then everyone is"packing" a smart phone.
Dang cartridge rifles took over from muzzle stuffers.
Bolt guns instead of a Sharps? Benelli semi-auto shotgun instead of an LC Smith side by side?
A treager pellet smoker with auger feed and computer controls and WiFi readouts is a whole different way to smoke a brisket
Dang,I miss those flathead Ford V-8's Split rims and tubes!! A man could fixa flat with hand tools and a patch.
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I disagree. Unless you are using such a broad definition of "design", that all bolt actions are the same "design", lever actions are the same design, etc. then there absolutely have been "new" designs with exposed hammers, within the last 100 years.
The Browning BLR is the first one that comes to my mind. I'm sure there are others, like the Winchester 9422. I'll grant that they haven't been common, and they LOOK like old designs at a glance, but they are new designs.
And the positive to an exposed hammer is being able to tell, at a glance, (or by feel in the dark) that the gun is cocked. Are there negaitves? yes, everything has them. But don't go saying there are no positives, when there actually are. (unless you frame it as your opinion, in which case you're welcome to what ever it is
)As to polymer framed pistols, I'll consider one, when they make a polymer framed Luger. (yes, the P.08 Luger)
PushPuller
New member
Now I'm day dreaming a bit!
Brownstone322
New member
Also the ability to double-strike an apparent dud primer.
Don't tell this to Ruger, or they will close their doors tomorrow. Yes, one big contract like SIG got for the P320 with the US Military is a guarantee that they will have business and make money for many years to come... but Ruger has been making pistols, and making money selling them, for about 40 years longer than Gaston Glock.
Springfield relies on about zero LEO or Government Contracts. S&W these days... not very many. As a matter of fact, S&W is an excellent case study. Just because you are king of the hill today does not mean you will be tomorrow. Another case study we could look at is FNH. They pretty much have the government contract light and medium belt-fed weapon market in the Western world cornered. They had numerous contracts for M16 designs at the turn of the century. Despite this, just 15 years later, they are starting to market their FNX, FNS, and 509 handgun lines aggressively. Despite all of the government contracts they have accrued, they see the utility in marketing to the lucrative civilian pistol market. And I suspect they want use their long-standing military design pedigree to increase brand recognition and begin chipping away at the LEO market as well.
All of this to say... sometimes it actually goes the other way around. Sometimes military and police follow the civilian market. SIG is an example of this. They've had some decent LEO exposure for awhile, and are probably number 2 behind Glock now, but they started out in the US pretty much mainly in the civilian market. CZ is just now starting to discover this. CZ USA spent exactly zero dollars and effort marketing to law enforcement 15 years ago. Now they don't have a huge law enforcement following, but they do have agencies that carry their weapons and they are marketing to others. I suspect that CZ will do well in this arena with their polymer DA/SA line if they market it right. There are a significant number of agencies that lean toward the DA/SA action over the striker action. If CZ started offering aggressive pricing to LEO agencies, and helping with the cost of switching over holsters and mag pouches (yes, both Glock and Sig have also sweetened the deal for large agencies in this area in time past), they would probably get a decent chunk of market share in the LEO market. A rather obscure pistol 20 years ago, known only to a select few in the civilian market, is now pretty much mainstream. 10 years ago my firearms coordinator would not allow anyone to qualify with a CZ pistol for off-duty carry. Now a P07 is my primary carry in plain clothes duty. The word has gotten out, and it started with the civilian market and not mainstream LEO contracts.
Some of what you say is true. Lots of folks own a Glock 19 because their local LEO agency carries it, along with about half a million other cops. It is the gold standard now of value with price/accuracy/reliability. It also has ease of maintenance, ease of use, and ease of carry going for it still. But lots of others are catching up, and I dare say there are better options on the market today. AND... Glock took the LEO market from S&W. Don't think that someone can't do that to Glock. And it may just be by becoming mainstream in the civilian market.
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Cosmodragoon
New member
I also enjoy the peace of mind that comes with feeling the hammer as a gun slides into a holster. It isn't necessary for me but I do like it.
If you really need to take a long shot first in DA/SA, you could thumb-cock it. Unless you have a P99, it's a lot like a traditional double action revolver in that respect. For most defensive purposes, at normal defensive ranges, the longer pull of that initial DA shot shouldn't be a big deal. In any case, I find it less complicated than a manual safety switch.
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