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High pressure troubleshoot
- Thread starter Yosemite Steve
- Start date
Your humility is awe inspiring.
Reynolds357. When it comes to compliments I only have two speeches, one is short; it goes something like "Thank you", the other one is the longer speech; it goes something like "Thank you very much".
F. Guffey
When you said "Straight Bolt" that,to me,describes the ones like a Mauser,sticking out horizontal.
As far as I know,they are all turned down.I learned long ago what you are calling "straight" had the potential for being low number,especially off e-bay or Sarco,etc. I choose the swept back,as those are supposed to all be good.
As far as I know,they are all turned down.I learned long ago what you are calling "straight" had the potential for being low number,especially off e-bay or Sarco,etc. I choose the swept back,as those are supposed to all be good.
I waited until the owner of the rare rifle left and then told the smith I can measure the length of any chamber without a head space gage
just as a guess here you use a set of calipers, a new case, and the firing pin. Disassemble the bolt to where you can measure the firing pin length and remove the extractor, load the round so it is flush against the bolt and firing pin is just touching the primer and measure the firing pin. Then use the firing pin to force the round against the shoulder and measure again.
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Yosemite Steve
New member
Somehow I knew when I posted this thread that it would get thick. I'm just trying to solve a problem with my gun and learn something along the way. I'm happy I did. Unklenick and HiBC especially helped. Everyone who was either negative or irrelevant just made the problem more confusing and complicated.
"Measure the chamber to the thousandth" without a headspace gauge.
Well,I have some questions.To what standard,or tolerance?Are you actually talking about agreeing with a headspace gauge that you don't have?To .001?How do you verify?
Certainly a sampling of new cartridges can be used with tape to get an idea if a rifle is near accepting a "NoGo",which is used for building rifles.That would pass "Field" with confidence. But you don't have a standard.A bushing gauge can be a standard of sorts.
Whether tape shims,or a loose primer pocket and a high primer,finish seated by the bolt face,measured over in the bushing gauge.You could drill and tap a primer pocket,maybe 10-32. Make a screwdriver tip for a cleaning rod begin with the screw sub flush,slot or Philips or whatever inside the case. Strip the bolt if necessary.Chamber the brass ,close the bolt.Run the rod with driver through the bore to the screw.Turn to contact. Remove the case and measure it in the bushing gauge.
But this is all BS. In 15 minutes I can have a gauge shipped for the price of a beer and a pizza.I have access to a LOT of headspace gauges,certainly for every cartridge I'm interested in.. I don't lower my standards to some workaround on headspace.
Maybe Mr Guffy,if you used headspace gauges,you would not need to use so many feeler gauges,long cases,shortcases etc to feed your fine rifles.
I don't do bad chambers.Hitting headspace is a cakewalk.If I get a bad gun,I fix it.My grandson will not have any crap to deal with when I'm dead.
Chambering,I could depth mic to a precision ball,such as a bearing,I can do the math.
But its all silly,moot,and irrelevant.I don't work that way.I do it right.I use gauges.I'll leave hacking to the hacks
We do share respect for Unclenick.
But Guffy,the only skill I've seen from you is blowing smoke and patting yourself on the head.
Well,I have some questions.To what standard,or tolerance?Are you actually talking about agreeing with a headspace gauge that you don't have?To .001?How do you verify?
Certainly a sampling of new cartridges can be used with tape to get an idea if a rifle is near accepting a "NoGo",which is used for building rifles.That would pass "Field" with confidence. But you don't have a standard.A bushing gauge can be a standard of sorts.
Whether tape shims,or a loose primer pocket and a high primer,finish seated by the bolt face,measured over in the bushing gauge.You could drill and tap a primer pocket,maybe 10-32. Make a screwdriver tip for a cleaning rod begin with the screw sub flush,slot or Philips or whatever inside the case. Strip the bolt if necessary.Chamber the brass ,close the bolt.Run the rod with driver through the bore to the screw.Turn to contact. Remove the case and measure it in the bushing gauge.
But this is all BS. In 15 minutes I can have a gauge shipped for the price of a beer and a pizza.I have access to a LOT of headspace gauges,certainly for every cartridge I'm interested in.. I don't lower my standards to some workaround on headspace.
Maybe Mr Guffy,if you used headspace gauges,you would not need to use so many feeler gauges,long cases,shortcases etc to feed your fine rifles.
I don't do bad chambers.Hitting headspace is a cakewalk.If I get a bad gun,I fix it.My grandson will not have any crap to deal with when I'm dead.
Chambering,I could depth mic to a precision ball,such as a bearing,I can do the math.
But its all silly,moot,and irrelevant.I don't work that way.I do it right.I use gauges.I'll leave hacking to the hacks
I am impressed, I would be more impressed if you demonstrated more skill, try to be more like UNCLENICK.
We do share respect for Unclenick.
But Guffy,the only skill I've seen from you is blowing smoke and patting yourself on the head.
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you can call me negative if you want Yosemite but I still would not fire that rifle until the head space is checked and verified by a competent gunsmith using gages. I have seen pictures of guns that blew up from not doing so and a hours worth of smith time is cheaper than a trip to the emergency room
Also as a Savage lover I am still curious what model Savage this was on and what slot you needed to dremel out.
Also as a Savage lover I am still curious what model Savage this was on and what slot you needed to dremel out.
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Yosemite Steve
New member
you can call me negative if you want Yosemite but I still would not fire that rifle until the head space is checked and verified by a competent gunsmith using gages. I have seen pictures of guns that blew up from not doing so and a hours worth of smith time is cheaper than a trip to the emergency room
I appreciate your concern. I wasn't singling anyone out really but this thread kept getting way off track. Being someone who has little experience with these issues makes it hard to figure out who to listen to. I know I picked a crappy gunsmith. I'm trying to sort out the pieces (one at a time). Really though thank you for taking time to help out.
This gun has been a saga to try and get working.
NP Yosemite, I tend to be cautious just by nature and being career military I figure the rules are there for a reason. Oh and that alternate headspace suggestion was an overly complicated method, there are simpler home grown methods but I don't consider them reliable. For that matter I don't consider anything short of a set of gages properly used reliable.
If you are going to be playing with that Savage for awhile get a set and a barrel vise and wrench. They are pretty easy to work on and a ton of online help is available
If you are going to be playing with that Savage for awhile get a set and a barrel vise and wrench. They are pretty easy to work on and a ton of online help is available
Yosemite Steve
New member
Ok. I found out the pressure problem. All of my brass was trimmed to 1.280". The round stretched to 1.290". Add .007" for the extended bolt face and add another few thousandths for the bound up bolt head that was not falling into it's recess (I have not determined that distance yet for sure). The case neck hit the end of the tunnel and put a squeeze on the bullet. That explains the high pressure issue me thinks.
So not worth the hassle.
So not worth the hassle.
So you replaced the bolthead on a savage action and your headspace ended up .007 short? If so why not loosen the barrel nut turn the barrel out a turn, close the bolt on an unfired factory round with the bullet and powder removed and then turn the barrel in til it touches the shoulder of the case (making sure the case rim is under the extractor), back it off just barely and tighten the barrel nut. Typically a rifle should not have more than .006 headspace with .003 being supposedly perfect. Most factory ammo is set up to be no more than .003 short so it will chamber easily in a SAAMI minimum chamber. It would astonish many to know just how many rifles are headspaced in this fashion using factory unfired brass.
Yosemite Steve
New member
We're past that. But if you read the rest of the thread...
Typing error? 30-06?All of my brass was trimmed to 1.280".
Yosemite Steve
New member
Yes. 2.280
Your not technically past that if your trying all these odd tricks to make your reloads fit your chamber when a simple setting of the headspace would fix all of your problems. No need to ream the chamber at all. If that is what your gunsmith wants to do I would find another gunsmith. I did read most of the out in left field ideas but couldn't take it anymore! And you could remove the sights.
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Yosemite Steve
New member
At this point I was just explaining what caused the high pressure. The last fly was beat off the dead horse a while back. I won't turn the barrel as it has sights and it would look awful. It will be removed to clean up the face of the receiver and reamed to fit spec.
I'm out of money so I will put it away until I can afford to see another gunsmith. He will pay me back or I never have a good name in this town again. Hopefully I can get my money back and not have to go there. I summarized the scenario in the Smithy. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=593207
This whole thing has me pretty depressed. I just want to be done with it.
I'm out of money so I will put it away until I can afford to see another gunsmith. He will pay me back or I never have a good name in this town again. Hopefully I can get my money back and not have to go there. I summarized the scenario in the Smithy. https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=593207
This whole thing has me pretty depressed. I just want to be done with it.
This whole thing has me pretty depressed. I just want to be done with it.
Yosemite smith, forgive me for any part I had in causing you to be depressed. When I need help I am not selective, I have no ideal why this stuff come easy for me. If a bolt will not close I want to know 'by how much?'
http://www.switchbarrel.com/BOLTHEAD.htm
It would seem to me we have a few members talking about something they have never seen before, and that reminds me of John Godfrey Sax talking about the six men and the elephant. The lugs come with the bolt head. Meaning someone should determine the effect each bolt head has on the length of the chamber.
And then? someone has to determine if the chamber is long and or short. if it is short the barrel index will not be changed if the chamber is reamed.
One more time: I have a rifle that has a chamber that is .011" longer than a minimum length/full length sized case. I form 280 Remington cases for that 30/06 chamber.
F. Guffey
Yes. 2.280
Typing error? Are we measuring from the end of the neck to the case head to get case length? It is just not fair, my 30/06 case length measures 2.494, if your cases are trimmed to 2.280 as 243winxbas suggest you are missing most of the case neck.
But if I have confused you and you are trying to measure the length of the case from the datum on the shoulder to the case head I would suggest you go to SAAMI drawings of chambers and cases.
Problem: SAANI does not list case head space because the case does not have head space, they also suggest reloaders are very confused about it, most of the confusion is caused by reloaders that like to add stuff. Try to speak where SAAMI speaks and be silent where SAAMI is silent.
F. Guffey
BTW datums and headspace is not rocket surgery. here is a good primer
RELOADERS CORNER: SETTING CARTRIDGE CASE HEADSPACE
here is a good
I would suggest you start with SAAMI drawings of cartridges and chambers, they do not list head space for cases. We had a member that was so infatuated with head space he called SAAMI, I am sure they were impressed but they had trouble taking him seriously when he suggested they made a mistake. They informed him the case does not have head space, I accept that, the case does not have head space.
Head space is not rocket surgery: I agree but we have many members that throw that term around like they understand it. You have never noticed but I use the term 'the length of the chamber from the datum/shoulder to the bolt face'. And then there are all of the problems reloaders have when determining the length of the chamber when the bolt will not close: I want to know 'by how much', those that can not figure it out do not need to be thinking about getting into surgery.
F. Guffey