Yosemite Steve
New member
Guffey, if you read back you will see it has been measured. The bolt face of the new head is .007" more shallow than the old. All of their other measurements match.
High pressure troubleshoot
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Yosemite Steve
New member
HiBC, I am going to cut those bevels so they match the old ones and recheck my clearances.
I have no clue who you are talking to; but if you are not familiar with the 03 just say so. The Rock Island 1911 had a straight handle, I have one straight handle 03 bolt, it is in a Rock Island 03, it is in one of the most abused 03 rifles that has survived. The builder of the rifle had and still has 100+ 03 bolts, at the time he did not have a straight handle 03 bolt. John Beard had a bucket full. I believed he sent 7 bolts, I asked if I could check the effect each bolt had on the length of the chamber but, I offered to make a tool that could be used for checking the bolts ability, I reminded him I had arsenal bolts that were unfinished, the unfinished bolts were used for checking the length of the chamber and they were used when cutting chambers with pull through reamers.
The old bolts are stamped HO.
F. Guffey
I know I said I was out of this thread but you are all way over complicating it. Ask yourself a simple question, would you attempt to shoot a gun when the bolt would not close on a a go gage ? No Go gages are only about .003 longer than go gages. What the OP is claiming is that a sammi specced case is .007 too long.
I am not sure why the mods have not moved this to the smith forum, this is not a reloading question.Any recommendations other than setting the head space to SAAMI specs is not a good recommendation
I am not sure why the mods have not moved this to the smith forum, this is not a reloading question.Any recommendations other than setting the head space to SAAMI specs is not a good recommendation
Yosemite Steve
New member
HiBC, you know your stuff! I cut the bevels and the bolt closes on the standard fully sized case. It does not close on the partial sized cases I was making for this gun. The marker is not cleared away totally on the lug faces but only the outer edge. You are correct in that there is a recess that the lugs are sitting into. I don't know how deep but I'm guessing .006-.007". So I regret not paying more notice to your advice earlier on. There is much distraction and misinformation when one is looking to forums for advice. I will reduce my load back to 50 grains and do a gradual work up to see what happens now.
Between the concave bolt face and the recess I must have had excessive headspace that could not be determined with a go-no go gauge. Now to move forward. I will go buy a new shell holder. My partial sized brass will still work in the Enfield. I will bring all of this information to the gunsmith and at least let him know what he missed. He won't be touching my gun again.
Thank you HiBC! I look forward to any other thought you have.
Between the concave bolt face and the recess I must have had excessive headspace that could not be determined with a go-no go gauge. Now to move forward. I will go buy a new shell holder. My partial sized brass will still work in the Enfield. I will bring all of this information to the gunsmith and at least let him know what he missed. He won't be touching my gun again.
Thank you HiBC! I look forward to any other thought you have.
At this point,we are not too sure of your smith.If I were working on my own rifle...I have access to a nice machine shop. I'd check to see if a "Go" gauge would go. I'd pull the barrel ,stand the receiver up in a vee-block and use an indicator to see just how out of flat the receiver diaphragm is. Measure the setback.If it was less than the .007 or whatever you have as "short",I'd have to decide between "excellent" and "Pretty good" Making or buying a specialized receiver truing jig would be "Excellent"The receiver is a piece of round tubing that warped in heat treat.I might indicate it true in the lathe chuck as well as possible,then use a carbide boring bar to face up to the .007 off the beat up surface to clean it."Pretty good"If it measured more...Hmmm. I'd have to think about it.Its a 30 year old Savage with a less than perfect barrel.Odds are I'd take just enough to true it,but there are limits.We had .007 bonus steel in the new bolt head.In theory,.007 off the diaphragm might give the same for and aft position of the bolt.Remember a trigger and sear work on the other end.
Put it back together with the sight straight and check headspace.If you are still snug,lap the lugs a bit.
Put it back together with the sight straight and check headspace.If you are still snug,lap the lugs a bit.
I am the only reloader that has gages that are shorter than go-gages, I have gages that are longer than field reject length gages. Keeping-up: that is what the OP did, I do ask myself, "why is it so difficult for smiths and reloaders to measure before and again after. And then there is that problem reloaders have when the bolt will not close; Why cant they determine by 'how much?'
Reloaders are locked into go, no and beyond gages. I measure the length of the chamber in thousandths. Reloaders can not decide on the concept of 'zero', they have a lot of excuses that are explained away with tolerance, and variances etc.
I do that three different ways without a head space gage.
F. Guffey
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Yosemite Steve
New member
Witout having a go and no go gauge here now, it will close on a full length sized case but not on the partial sized case that was custom fit when my chamber passed the go no go test. I will have it checked by the same gunsmith and when it passes I will insist on a refund.
I suggest you learn to measure the length of the case from the datum to the case head; judging from all of the answers and response I am the only reloader that can do that. I am the one that makes datums, I collect datums and I have been known to purchased datums, a datum is all I need when measuring the length of a case from 'THE DATUM' to the case head with a dial caliper or depth gage or a height gage or a Wilson case gage when used with a straight edge and feeler gage. The head space gage is a fixed gage, they come in length of go-gage, no go-gage and field reject length gage. I can measure the length of the chamber in thousandths with a field reject length gage. I can also measure the length of a 30/06 chamber with a 280 Remington case, try to understand the 280 Remington case is .051" longer from the datum to the case head than the 30/06, I know reloaders that have trouble keeping up, I always suggest they write some of this stuff down but they choose to be threatened by something they do not understand.
F. Guffey
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Yosemite Steve
New member
I have a friend holding onto an RCBS precision mic for me. He only wants $35 for it. I blew my wad on a gunsmith who isn't one and will resume playing with all of this as time and money permit. HiBC had it right and was asking the right questions all along. What was hard for me was letting go of time and money wasted on the wrong path. My ego took a small hit, but I'll be fine.
Ultimately, like HiBC said, it's a 30+ year old hunting rifle and "pretty good" will continue to drop my game in it's tracks as it has for close to 45 animals. I don't have a lot of experience with firearms but I am very resourceful and before I die I will be a master of the workings of my guns. I will try the lapping after some more inspection using the right tools. And, like most of life's problems, the best solutions tend to be the simplest so I will start there.
Thanks, everyone, for your input!
Ultimately, like HiBC said, it's a 30+ year old hunting rifle and "pretty good" will continue to drop my game in it's tracks as it has for close to 45 animals. I don't have a lot of experience with firearms but I am very resourceful and before I die I will be a master of the workings of my guns. I will try the lapping after some more inspection using the right tools. And, like most of life's problems, the best solutions tend to be the simplest so I will start there.
Thanks, everyone, for your input!
I certainly do believe in getting over 70% of both lugs bearing.There is more than one way to do that.
If the receiver diaphragm has an impression that a locking lug will fall into,how will it lap out?You will cut the low spot as fast as the high spots.
You cut the diaphragm flat with a machine.I've done it in a lathe,Ive done with a boring head and a Bridgeport in neutral,hand turning the spindle and facing the boring head out,and using a rotary table with an end mill.They all work.
Pulling back on a bolt handle to apply cutting pressure when lapping a bolt is not good.You will cut heavy on the lug aligned with the bolt handle.There is some bolt.receiver clearance.The bolt body will deflect.I use a barrel shank stub to hold a brass spring loaded plunger against the bolt face.The loadis central and even.
But I do something else first.I put a thin film of Prussian blue on the diaphragm.If there is a high spot on a locking lug,I use an india stone there.Thats hard fitting.Stone off just the high spots.pretty soon most of the lugs bear.Then just a little lapping takes off the peaks of the machined surfaces.
There is another issue with trying to lap the diaphragm flat.The way lapping works,the grit bites into the softer material and becomes teeth. The softer material is a matrix that drives the teeth,like a file.When lapping,the harder material will receive the most cut.(ordinarily)
You will not flatten a dip out of a diaphragm by cutting away the harder locking lug.
Another problem with extensive lapping,its hard to control the grit perfectly. The bolt can get looser in the receiver.
Flat diaphragm,High spot stone the lugs,light lapping to finish,load the bolt on center and in line.
If the receiver diaphragm has an impression that a locking lug will fall into,how will it lap out?You will cut the low spot as fast as the high spots.
You cut the diaphragm flat with a machine.I've done it in a lathe,Ive done with a boring head and a Bridgeport in neutral,hand turning the spindle and facing the boring head out,and using a rotary table with an end mill.They all work.
Pulling back on a bolt handle to apply cutting pressure when lapping a bolt is not good.You will cut heavy on the lug aligned with the bolt handle.There is some bolt.receiver clearance.The bolt body will deflect.I use a barrel shank stub to hold a brass spring loaded plunger against the bolt face.The loadis central and even.
But I do something else first.I put a thin film of Prussian blue on the diaphragm.If there is a high spot on a locking lug,I use an india stone there.Thats hard fitting.Stone off just the high spots.pretty soon most of the lugs bear.Then just a little lapping takes off the peaks of the machined surfaces.
There is another issue with trying to lap the diaphragm flat.The way lapping works,the grit bites into the softer material and becomes teeth. The softer material is a matrix that drives the teeth,like a file.When lapping,the harder material will receive the most cut.(ordinarily)
You will not flatten a dip out of a diaphragm by cutting away the harder locking lug.
Another problem with extensive lapping,its hard to control the grit perfectly. The bolt can get looser in the receiver.
Flat diaphragm,High spot stone the lugs,light lapping to finish,load the bolt on center and in line.
okay I will bite. For engineers or draftsmen datums are nothing more than reference points on a drawing from which you take a measurement. For what we are talking about it is the diameter at a point on the case shoulder the point which SAAMI arbitrary selected. I have no clue as to what you are referring to when you say you make and collect them
SAAMI datums are arbitrarily chosen and while I use the same go no/go gages for the .243 the .308 Winchester and the .260 Remington for the .308 and the .260 SAAMI chose a datum of .400 diameter on the shoulder and for the .243 the datum point is where the shoulder diameter is .450.
If measuring a .308 Win case or a .260 I would use the case gage that has a hole that measures .400 in and from that point the base of the case head should measure 1.627 to 1.634 in distance for a .243 I would have no clue as to how far from that datum the face the case head should be unless I had a gage with a hole .450. So what you do is use a fired case and with the .400 gage and establish the datum for that gun and measure the shoulder bump from that datum
Any reloader that bumps the shoulder is using a datum point in doing so even though their case gage may not be .400. I have used sized a .45 ACP case to determine a datum point from which to bump a shoulder on the .308 family
Like I have said I am not a trained gunsmith but I have been working with engineering drawings for 49 years now and have a pretty good grasp of what a datum is in engineering terms at least. I am just curious as to what you are referring to
BTW datums and headspace is not rocket surgery. here is a good primer
RELOADERS CORNER: SETTING CARTRIDGE CASE HEADSPACE
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Well said,Houndawg.I have said pretty much the same to Mr Guffey.Datums are theoretical. A granite surface plate may represent a datum plane,but it is not a datum,and the (semi) flat bottom of a part is not a datum.
Mr Guffey likes to tell us about how he "Is the only...." Right.
I hope he has that lecture written down so he can copy and paste.I think I have seen it over a dozen times.
Did you see anything in there that would help anyone?
Post #28 is evidence I tried. Now I mostly just don't expect anything else.It is what it is.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590003&highlight=hibc+datum&page=2
Mr Guffey likes to tell us about how he "Is the only...." Right.
I hope he has that lecture written down so he can copy and paste.I think I have seen it over a dozen times.
Did you see anything in there that would help anyone?
Post #28 is evidence I tried. Now I mostly just don't expect anything else.It is what it is.
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=590003&highlight=hibc+datum&page=2
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Yosemite Steve
New member
And then there were the sheep hearders...
I did and I do, if a reloader had a go-gage or a no go-gage and or a field reject length gage he has to assume it is correct, one more time; not me. I can verify a head space gage, if I can verify a head space gage I can make one, I do not want to leave out the part where I have three machines that grind pilots, they grind pilots to length and they grind angles.
And you left out the part about in the big inning, reloaders started out claiming the datum was a line, they identified the line with an arrow pointing to it and calling it 'the datum line'. It took years for me to convince them the datum was a round hole, it was not a line but a circle, they could not use it for measuring because they could not figure from and or to.
And then there is that part where I make gages for verifying.
F. Guffey
Datums are absolute. I could say you should ask Hornady even though they can not make one that is reliable without using a transfer/standard. you could contact L. E. Wilson, problem; you would have to have me explain to you what they said and why their method/technique works.
For years and years reloaders thought the Wilson case gage was a drop in gage, For years and years I have use a straight edge and a feeler gage. I made a tool that included a dial indicator again, all I had to do was zero the gage.
F. Guffey
Guffy,on my loading bench is a black granite comparator stand with a 1 in travel drop indicator on it. Its been there for years.I use it with my Wilson case gauges.
I just would not make the claim "I'm the only reloader....)
And I,too,have made a lot of gauges,some of which were all calibrated,registered serial numbered and part of qualifying contract parts .As have a lot of other people.Its OK to shrug and say"So what?"
Among my peers its all in a days work.
Why would I ask Hornady about datums?
I'm trained and cerified in ASME Y-14-5 "Geometric Dimensioning and tolerancing"
Those are the international standards that decide if you get paid or made scrap.They have the weight of contract.
It doesn't matter what Hornady says.(Although I suspect they know Y-14-5)I'm qualified to read the print,inspect the parts,and tell them whether they get paid per ASME Y-14-5
Look it up.
I just would not make the claim "I'm the only reloader....)
And I,too,have made a lot of gauges,some of which were all calibrated,registered serial numbered and part of qualifying contract parts .As have a lot of other people.Its OK to shrug and say"So what?"
Among my peers its all in a days work.
Why would I ask Hornady about datums?
I'm trained and cerified in ASME Y-14-5 "Geometric Dimensioning and tolerancing"
Those are the international standards that decide if you get paid or made scrap.They have the weight of contract.
It doesn't matter what Hornady says.(Although I suspect they know Y-14-5)I'm qualified to read the print,inspect the parts,and tell them whether they get paid per ASME Y-14-5
Look it up.
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reynolds357
New member
Your humility is awe inspiring.
I am not desperate for attention but when someone is widely indignant about ever thing I write and then says the 03 has a turned down bolt and datums are theoretical I have to wonder what qualifies the critic to make the insults.
One more time, the 03 Rock Island had a straight bolt, after the straight bolt the 03 bolt was bent back. And I have to ask What is it about a datum you do not understand?
I also said I took a picture of my gages, the picture weighed 800 pounds.
Do you know of another member on this forum that measure the length of the chamber in thoudandths without a head space gage. I was looking for gun parts between here and Ft. Worth, Texas when a man walked into a gun parts store looking for someone to measure his head space. The smith said he could not measure it because he did not have a gage. I did not get involved, I waited until the owner of the rare rifle left and then told the smith I can measure the length of any chamber without a head space gage; he asked 'HOW?!. "friendly alert"
I did a demonstration and he said "I'll be dammed".
F. Guffey