Full Power 10mm Personal Defense Ammo??

Nanuk

New member
Gold Dot replaced Federal 9BPLE +P+ like 20 years ago (out in 1991)...

The Border Patrol used 9BPLE in the 9mm until transitioning to the 40 S&W in 1996.

HST is taking the LE contracts like that is its purpose.

The BP also uses HST. We used the 155 @ 1200 fps for decades and it worked wonderfully.

Yeah. HST/Gold Dot are the round to have.

No doubt.

All with non nuclear FPS.

Define nuclear FPS.........

https://www.speer.com/ammunition/handgun/gold_dot_handgun_personal_protection/19-54000GD.html

Not too shabby for a 200 GRN bullet.
 

WESHOOT2

New member
logic and reasoning are dangerous habits

A 147g 9x19 is just a smaller 38 Special.



While static testing is wonderfully comparative, actual street results prove efficacy.

(I still have someathat 155g R-P on me shelf, and some Triton, and some CorBon, and some other stuff.....)




Define nuclear FPS.........

My 115g R-P JHP at 1415fps?
My 135g Nosler at 1300fps from short Glocks?
My my my others....
 
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wild cat mccane

New member
Read up on "hydrostatic shock" (the wide parts in jello testing) from this very forum and we see 2,300FPS is the start of rifle level damage. No magnum handgun load is even near that FPS. So rifle like damage simply isn't a thing in handgun loads. Magnum level damage is coming from the actual bullet design.
https://www.google.com/search?q=thefiringline+hydrostatic+damage+site:thefiringline.com&client

Next. Learn about bullet design and purpose from those making the bullet (not reloaders) (bonded/non bonded/ controlled/limited expansion).

The only modern bullet that could benefit from higher FPS without questions of failure is the limited expansion Hornady XTP because it is designed to be controlled limited expansion. But again, it is hitting perfect penetration in factory Hornady, Horandy American Gunner, and Hornady Custom. So at higher FPS loaded XTP could be a hunting round in theory for a hunt where handgun performance was either insured to begin with or at least questionable.

No one was questioning 10mm can go higher FPS. Does it matter? The variation between 20grs between even 9mm and 40s&w shows it does not. The factory data does not show 10mm hot loaded is gaining you a single advantage because current HST/Gold Dot is hitting exactly what you want it to do.

If Vista factory 10mm is loaded to 40S&W levels, you have a great round. Because you had a great load at 40S&W in that load too. Also, some 9mm HST factory loads are hitting nearly or better as 40S&W HST.

And we arrive at the conclusion: what were we expecting or what would be different from a hotter loaded bullet that is factory designed and proven to expand and penetrate perfectly at normal FPS factory loads?
 
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Nanuk

New member
Read up on "hydrostatic shock" (the wide parts in jello testing) from this very forum and we see 2,300FPS is the start of rifle level damage. No magnum handgun load is even near that FPS. So rifle like damage simply isn't a thing in handgun loads. Magnum level damage is coming from the actual bullet design.
https://www.google.com/search?q=thef...ine.com&client

Next. Learn about bullet design and purpose from those making the bullet (not reloaders) (bonded/non bonded/ controlled/limited expansion).

I don't know where hydrostatic shock comes into this discussion. I did not mention it.

I have been at this game for about 40 years. We disagree, which is OK. No need to be condescending.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
I don't think it's a matter of being condescending, just a disagreement, as you say.

The mindset/conclusion is, for what it's worth, the logical progression of the model that seems to dominate LE ammunition selection currently, and for the past few decades.

Fackler emphatically decried the idea that energy was meaningful in handguns, emphasizing (overemphasizing?) the idea that only penetration and expansion/diameter meant anything in terms of handgun stopping power. U.S. LE bought in heavily, as did many others.

I don't think that he, nor his followers, realized where that line of reasoning would end up.

If expansion/diameter and penetration are really all that matter, then if you can get adequate penetration with adequate diameter/expansion with a 500fps projectile, it follows that the same penetration and diameter/expansion with 1000fps buys you nothing.

The issue was, IMO, that Fackler was pushing back against the idea of kinetic energy being a big contributor in handgun stopping power and he pushed back too hard. You can't blame people for following his teachings and taking them to their logical conclusion--especially when LE, for the most part, seems to still be enamored with his philosophy.
 

wild cat mccane

New member
Exactly. I am disagreeing that a "full" fps 10mm does anything better than what a Federal HST 10mm 200gr 1,130fps or a factory load Gold Dot at 1,100FPS already does. If a bullet fully expands and penetrates, more isn't better. "Better" can't even be defined.

The round isn't expanding more.

The round already hits deep penetration where no one is arguing for greater than 19".

A 10mm will NEVER hit rifle level FPS. So higher FPS isn't doing extra damage alone.

An expanding hollow point isn't going to defect off bone less because of higher FPS.

In fact, you're risking bullet failure or even too fast expansion leading to failed penetration.


That said, I like shooting 357mag at the range. Love it. Significant feeling of fun and power.

But I'm not going to pretend any 357mag load I can pick up is performing better than my 9mm 147+P HST from even my small P365 short barrel.
 

Nanuk

New member
I agree John. My big problem with that philosophy is that it is misleading. If it were true then people receiving penetrating wounds would all act in a similar manner. Minus good shot placement people can soak up a lot of bullets, even with good shot placement people have shown great resilience.

Looking at police shootings,lots of people still take a lot of hits to stop them. The funny thing is us gun guys argue over such a small factor as the bullet/caliber/platform.

The reason I like "high energy" rounds is that they seem to work across the board more consistently.

My carry gun is a Dan Wesson LW commander in 9mm loader with standard pressure Gold Dots. Not what I would consider "high energy" but it shoots so good and Wilson mags give me 10+1.

These discussions are largely academic and entertaining until someones ego gets bruised.
 

Nanuk

New member
Exactly. I am disagreeing that a "full" fps 10mm does anything better than what a Federal HST 10mm 200gr 1,130fps or a factory load Gold Dot at 1,100FPS already does. If a bullet fully expands and penetrates, more isn't better. "Better" can't even be defined.

The round isn't expanding more.

The round already hits deep penetration where no one is arguing for greater than 19".

A 10mm will NEVER hit rifle level FPS. So higher FPS isn't doing extra damage alone.

An expanding hollow point isn't going to defect off bone less because of higher FPS.

In fact, you're risking bullet failure or even too fast expansion leading to failed penetration.


That said, I like shooting 357mag at the range. Love it. Significant feeling of fun and power.

But I'm not going to pretend any 357mag load I can pick up is performing better than my 9mm 147+P HST from even my small P365 short barrel.

Part of the disconnect is that to the Facklerites, anything that cannot be explained in the lab is dismissed. That is intellectually dishonest.

Full power 10mm loads do not cause bullets to fail. We are only talking about 200 more FPS. A little fragmentation with a SD load is actually a good thing, more wounding, more bleeding, faster incapacitation. That is why the 357 magnum was so good. I saw a lot of people shot with 38's and 357's, only difference being velocity. What a difference....

The 147 grain 9mm is the worst load for the caliber, unless you are using a suppressed carbine in special ops, in my opinion.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
For what it's worth, I agree that energy is not meaningless.

A bullet wound is a combination of a penetrating wound (like a stab wound) and blunt trauma (like getting hit with a fist, a club or a bat).

A very low energy bullet will emphasize the penetration aspect and there may be very little blunt trauma effect.

A higher-energy bullet will increase the blunt trauma effect.

Fackler correctly noted that the blunt trauma effect (the temporary cavity we see in freeze-frame or slow-motion gel shots) was not a consistent wounding factor in handgun wounds. If there's enough energy and if the bullet hits in the right organ, there can be some wounding effect, but a lot of the human body is pretty stretchy and it snaps back leaving only the equivalent of a bruise. The liver, kidneys, brain, spleen, tend not to stretch and if you get a temporary cavity in one of those organs, the effect can be lethal.

But instead of just leaving it there (saying it's not consistent), he tried to downplay even that effect and ended up swinging too hard towards the idea that in handguns, the ONLY wounding effect was the permanent wound channel.

That neglects the organs that don't stretch without tearing, but there's also more to stopping someone than just wounding them.

A penetrating injury may not be immediately obvious to a person who is under a lot of stress. It's not uncommon for stabbing victims to comment that they didn't realize they had been stabbed until they saw the knife, or saw the wound, or noted the bleeding.

Blunt trauma is a different story. When a person is slapped, they aren't likely to sustain an injury, but they will certainly know immediately that they have been slapped. You don't hear people say things like--"I didn't realize I had been slapped until I saw the red marks in the mirror." or "I didn't know he hit me with the bat until I saw the bruise." Blunt trauma of any significance is noticed immediately.

So while the penetration aspect of a bullet wound may be what puts someone in a hospital or in the ground, the blunt trauma effect (if it's significant) is likely what lets them know they've actually been shot. That's really important because one of the most significant factors in whether a person stops attacking/stops fighting is psychological. If a person doesn't know they've been shot, they are more likely to keep attacking, to keep fighting whereas if they realize they've been shot, they are likely to become more concerned with their wellbeing than with continuing an attack or continuing to fight.

IMO, these two things, the notification effect of the temporary cavity, and the injury in non-elastic tissue, are the two reasons that energy does matter, even in handguns. How much it matters depends on a lot of things.
 

GLK

New member
I don’t know if these are old or new but they advertise a feet/ second of 1200 and 559 foot pounds of muzzle energy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Same great stuff just new labeling. Perfect for self defense, I bought 25 boxes of the old labeling for $9.98 a box from Sportsman's Outdoor Superstore just before the craziness. I guess that is when the new & improved box & label was released.
 

JustJake

New member
The Magtec 180gr JHP's I shoot through my 5" 10mm are clocking at 1220fps through my buddies crony.
Yeah, some of the non-standard brands of 10mm will surprise ya. I think S&B (pre-panic) came out with a hot 180grn 10mm load, and Sig's 180grn load is pretty peppy as well. 1250fps from a 5" barrel. My Delta Elite sure liked it.

But for full-power factory SD/EDC ammo, the knowledgeable 10mm pistolero loads up with one of the Big Three: UW, DT, or BB.

And for practice ammo having roughly equivalent fps/fpe specs, he reloads.

:cool:
 

wild cat mccane

New member
But, of course, the Magtech jacketed hollow point bullet is not good performing bullet. I have never seen Magtech ever called a good self defense bullet.

So to do what normal current technology does at low FPS, it's going to need higher FPS to even expand.
 

Nanuk

New member
Jake, I will use it for anything I need the gun for. Why limit it to training? Don't tell me you are worried about the reload fairy.
 

JustJake

New member
Jake, I will use it for anything I need the gun for. Why limit it to training? Don't tell me you are worried about the reload fairy.

Not at all. Actually I was complimenting you on the specifics of your handload. Wasn't implying it was a "training-only" load.

I'm fine with someone EDC-ing their 10mm load of choice, factory or bench-made. :cool:
 
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