Full Power 10mm Personal Defense Ammo??

[WESHOOT2]

a bit of 10mm experience

If you are buying 'defense' ammo for your 10mm either DoubleTap or BuffaloBore.

Most highly recommend, if shooting people as a civilian, choices include the 135g and 155g only.
The bitch-slappiness of a 135g going 1500--1800fps can not be overstated; can NOT.

 

[Nanuk]

The context is critical.

Most often, the context is the FBI penetration tests. The thing about the FBI penetration tests is that they provide a hard threshold. Pass the threshold and the FBI (and therefore most of American LE as well as a lot of the people who follow the FBI's lead) consider that ammunition to be suitable personal defense. If the threshold isn't met then the round isn't considered suitable for personal defense.

So, let's take 3 handgun calibers, A, B, and C.

Let's say that A and B vary only slightly in terms of energy, momentum, and bullet diameter but A can not meet the threshold established by the FBI's testing protocol.

Let's say that B and C are quite different in terms of energy, momentum, and bullet diameter and both meet the threshold established by the FBI's testing protocol.

Then A would be considered to be unsuitable for personal defense even though it's quite similar to B.

Both B and C would be considered suitable for personal defense even though they are quite different from each other in just about every way possible. Does that mean they are considered to be equivalent? No, it means they are both considered to be sufficient.

That is an overly simplistic view. One sadly perpetuated by fans of jello testing as a sole tool for determining the best ammo. Of course, I would be remiss if I did not mention that the bullet is really a very small percentage of the total solution.

Bullet construction is equally as important as is energy, caliber or bullet diameter, within reason.

A couple of cases in point. LAPD Officer Lim was shot piont blank in the chest with a 110 grain Winchester 357 magnum. The bullet went thru her heart. Had that been a Remington bullet she likely would have not survived. Why you ask? The Winchester held together, similar to a bonded bullet, A Remington with its thin semi jacket is known to fragment.

A friend of mine shot a carjacker with a +P 45 ACP 230 grn Gold Dot, which literally blew a 3/4" hole thru his heart. He expired after running three blocks.

Long before the FBI protocol was a thing the 357 magnum was working with boring regularity. Even with the FBI protocol people are still soaking up multitudes of service pistol bullets.

Before you go there, yes every gun, cartridge , caliber combination has had failures. I tend to pick the combo's that have the most consistent track record on the street. The lab only gets you so far with theory.

 

[Nanuk]

If you are buying 'defense' ammo for your 10mm either DoubleTap or BuffaloBore.

Most highly recommend, if shooting people as a civilian, choices include the 135g and 155g only.
The bitch-slappiness of a 135g going 1500--1800fps can not be overstated; can NOT.

Mike drop

 

[JohnKSa]

That is an overly simplistic view.

Of course it is. Basically it's establishing suitability based nearly exclusively on penetration figures.

But he wanted to know how people are somehow discriminating between rounds that perform very similarly and I told him. That's the context that makes sense of the apparent contradictions he was confused about.

 

[shurshot]

"A friend of mine shot a carjacker with a +P 45 ACP 230 grn Gold Dot, which literally blew a 3/4" hole thru his heart. He expired after running three blocks."(Nanuk).

I have shot deer through the heart with a rifle and they went over 80 yards on a dead run. Recurve bows and 2 blade broadheads, again, heart shots.. deer still went 35 to 40 yards before dropping. Shot a deer with an Excalibur Crossbow last October, through the heart, and it made it 25 yards. Animals can go quite a ways on pure adrenaline.

Three blocks though, for a heart shot human... and .45 ACP Gold Dot no less??? THREE BLOCKS? What kind of drugs was he on?

 

[MagDiddy]

One thing about the 10mm is that I see the ammo available everywhere. Major bonus these days.

 

[Nanuk]

Three blocks though, for a heart shot human... and .45 ACP Gold Dot no less??? THREE BLOCKS? What kind of drugs was he on?

Adrenaline

 

[Nanuk]

But is the result on target significant? All you made mention is an increased FPS.

Of course it is. Energy is the ability to do work.

Here's what I mean. The 9mm HST in 147gr +P went 1,000 FPS in the Lucky Gunner test and went as far (20") and expanded as much (.6") as the best 357mag load that went 1,600 FPS. That is a higher FPS change than what you just described. What this shows is the 9mm HST is better as a self defense bullet. Same expansion, same penetration.

Wrong. Street results indicate that your hypothesis is incorrect.

600 FPS (!) slower than the Barnes XBP 357mag. Small size. weight didn't make a difference in the two important measures. Speed didn't make a difference. AND that's on top of the fact that Barnes XBP is arguably one of the best bullet type as it is a harder all copper construction.

What?

It's not just FPS. In fact, FPS is largely the least important point with these new bullets. At some point, these better bullets DON'T do well with higher FPS. On older bullets it does WORSE because they aren't bonded--ie jacket separates or they break up. On the Silver Tips? Probably good. Can a newer Gold Dot do better with a lower FPS? Absolutely it can.

Theoretically. But it does not represent itself that way in the field. Sure old tech bullets required velocity to work, but they did work very well and still do.

If not, Federal 9BPLE at +P+ 1,300 would be THE 9mm round. It isn't.

actually, it is. It was the carry load for most feds who carried 9mm's in the 90's and worked exceptionally well on felons.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Vista Outdoors (owns Federal and Speer) posts test up that are used to win LE contracts (ps, they own the DOD contract). https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/wound_ballistics/load_comparison/load_comparison.aspx

9mm HST bests a Gold Dot in 357mag on lots of occasions in that data. 9mm HST 124gr went 9"(!) more than 357mag Gold Dot in steel and bested 357 in auto glass. And Vista makes both rounds mind you.

On Lucky Gunner, one of the best and hottest 357mag loads (1,600FPS Barnes--one of the best constructed bullets as it's all copper--ie WAY harder than lead) went the same distance and expanded the same as a 9mm HST. HST did all this, beating most 357 loads, without breaking 1,200FPS.


You can hate jello testing all you want, but jello not only levels the field with "all else being equal" medium, it also shows expansion of tissue. No handgun (even super nuke 10mm/357mag) make rifle round damage. And no bullet is designed for that speed anyways. No handgun round does what a 223 Gold Dot does while only reaching 14". And that is why we have expanding bullets in handgun rounds. The point isn't speed, it's expansion.

Being in stats, I appreciate the stories. However, story telling without data isn't what pays big bucks right now

 

[Nanuk]

Wild cat, I do not hate jello testing, I use it in the proper context. No matter what a bullet may do in water or jello it is how it performs across the board shooting people in various conditions that is important. You seem to hate on any old tech bullets, yet many of the bullets you hate on consistently work in real shootings. It is not a mathematical equation of expansion X penetration. It is a bit more complicated than that.

If you were to use jello to compare say the 125 grn 357 mag SJHP against the 38 special 125 grn LSWC you would see what I mean. Bullet construction, even in the dark ages before the FBI protocols were critical as well. In the 10mm for personal defense are you going to want to use a heavy solid or a lightly built JHP?

I will help you here, A heavy solid is the wrong choice for the application.

 

[RickB]

Muzzle velocity, penetration, muzzle energy, bitch-slappiness; take your pick.

 

[wild cat mccane]

No one is testing in water. Or phone books.

I don't hate old bullets. You don't seem to understand what old bullets need to work: FPS.

New bullets don't.

For example, the brand new (summer 2020) Federal .380 DEEP (updated Hydra Shok) outperforms some of the 9mm hollow points on Lucky Gunners list. DEEP isn't the fake "+P" 380 either. REALLY thick copper jacket and spear pointed lead that doesn't expand inside. Brilliant idea to overcome 380's problem of lack of penetration without controlled expansion.

So focusing on FPS today on current Gold Dot and HST makes no sense. Handgun rounds are not even in the same universe of FPS to generate rifle like damage. FPS in handgun rounds exists to expand the bullet. That's it until someone comes up with a 3000fps handgun round.

 

[dpadams6]

Underwood. 135gr for summer, 165 for winter, 180-200 solids for the woods.

^This^

 

[wild cat mccane]

What more do you want/think Gold Dot or HST can do?

Directly from the manufacturer:

https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/catalogs/HSTInsertPoster.pdf
https://le.vistaoutdoor.com/downloads/catalogs/GoldDotPoster.pdf

This is the bullet bible out side of manufacturer testing. Roberts says:
"PISTOL AMMUNITION

Velocity seems to be the "holy grail" for a lot of folks when they decide to choose their handgun ammo, and they tend to gravitate towards +P or even +P+ loads. As mentioned above, velocity is not always good or useful. This is something to keep in mind when deciding between a "fast" 127gr +P+ or 147gr load in 9mm for example. Another factor is the ability to control the follow-up shot. If you have two loads which both perform about the same, you might consider going to the slow/heavy bullet due to the fact that the slower load is more easily controlled. Consider the data from Winchester in regards to their 9mm 127gr +P+ load (1250 fps) versus the 147gr load (990 fps) in the Ranger-T line:"

to conclude his thought, the +P+ Ranger T typically doesn't expand at all. The 990FPS non +P Ranger T is the only bullet that is equal to HST/Gold Dot.

No high FPS 115gr 9mm made the list. Only one 115gr 9mm, a normal FPS all copper Barnes/Cor-Bon bullet.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/self_defense_ammo_FAQ/#mozTocId759557

It isn't just FPS.

 

[Nanuk]

Wildcat, it seems you just want to fight. I originally stated that in the context of the 10mm vs the 40 S&W, the original subject...... That 200 fps was significant. I stand by my opinion.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Not at all.

I'm saying, no. Based on real data,Gold Dot or HST does just fine even at 1000fps.

Without testing, in any story, the story teller doesn't know if a smaller/less fps/ or even FMJ wouldn't do the exact same thing.

 

[Nanuk]

I'm saying, no. Based on real data,Gold Dot or HST does just fine even at 1000fps.

Does what just fine?

So, if 3000 fps is great why is velocity not important below that? Does it matter with 22 and not 45? Your theory does not hold water.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Yes. Just fine. Opens fully and nearly beyond needed penetration.

The super slow 150gr 9mm HST at 900fps expands larger than all but 2 10mm rounds on the Luckygunner test while hitting 17" penetration.

The 9mm in their test is out of a compact and the 10mm is being shot out of a Glock 20.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/


You've got the data right in front of your, from the company making Gold Dot and HST. Your choice to ignore it.

 

[Nanuk]

Yes. Just fine. Opens fully and nearly beyond needed penetration.

The super slow 150gr 9mm HST at 900fps expands larger than all but 2 10mm rounds on the Luckygunner test while hitting 17" penetration.

The 9mm in their test is out of a compact and the 10mm is being shot out of a Glock 20.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10m...tic-gel-tests/

You've got the data right in front of your, from the company making Gold Dot and HST. Your choice to ignore it.

How does it work on violent felons? Jello don't shoot back.

 

[wild cat mccane]

Gold Dot replaced Federal 9BPLE +P+ like 20 years ago (out in 1991)...

HST is taking the LE contracts like that is its purpose.

Gold Dot G2 pre 2019 crapped the bed, but new 2020 G2 outperforms Hornady XTP Duty that took the FBI contract.

Yeah. HST/Gold Dot are the round to have.

All with non nuclear FPS.