Full Power 10mm Personal Defense Ammo??

Ruger45LC

New member
If I were to pack around a 10mm I suppose I'd look to either the Hornady 155gr or 180gr XTP and even the "lesser" 200gr Gold Dot and HST would be good options, you don't need maxed out 10mm for self defense and frankly I'd much rather use the G23 (and I do).

The 10mm to me is kind of in an odd spot because for social use I'm not sure it's going to really accomplish anything the .40 or .45 won't already do and really the same applies to woods use, will it really do anything a warm .40 or .45 won't already do? I get that people "think" it will but I'm pretty sure there's nothing you can kill with a 10mm that wouldn't die just as well to a .40 or .45. If I'm in the woods and want more, I grab a big bore revolver.

We've seen animals run off after a solid hit from a rifle making much more energy than service pistols, I don't put tons of faith in "energy" alone because I've seen deer drop like a sack of potatoes when shot with factory .40 S&W ammo which has way less "energy" than most any rifle. That's why, with the relatively minuscule difference between .40, 10mm and 45 that I don't see one greatly outperforming another. With the .40 and 10mm it's like arguing which kills better at 150 yards, a 308 Win. or a .30-06.
 
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Big Shrek

New member
Buffalo Bore 10mm is good stuff as well...my Witness 10mm likes it.
If it'll work good on a black bear, it'll work just as good on a 300-lb crackhead.

I've just converted all my .45acp pistols to .45-Super, but you gotta load your own for that caliber.
They'll still use .45acp, but toss the brass into the next county ;)
 

bamaranger

New member
loads

The 10mm Auto is notorious for being underloaded in several commercial loadings. The two commercial loads that reportedly offer better numbers, and are not from boutique suppliers and USED to seem more available are the W-W 175 and the Sig 180 V-crown. Good luck finding either these days.
 

Brian48

New member
I've found that most of the lighter 150gr-155gr loadings are still pretty hot. If you want to go heavier, the Winchester Silvertip is still my favorite overall, full power load.
 

Catfishman

New member
Double Tap 135 grain produces well over 700 ft lbs of energy and is reasonably controllable from a Glock.

It’s interesting to me that people still say the 10mm is no more effective than 9mm, 40 s&w or 45 acp even though they are more powerful. I think the logic is that since 10 mm doesn’t create the devastating tissue damage of a high powered rifle round it’s extra power is unnecessary. It’s strange that increasing from a 250 ft lb .38 special to a 400 ft lb 9 mm creates a better personal defense round but increasing from up to and past 700 ft lbs is pointless.

The controllability argument on the the other hand is completely logical. But I prefer the concept of firing fewer more powerful shots. I base this on my own shooting and reading about the amazing number shots fired and the equally amazing number of misses in street shootings.
 

JohnKSa

Administrator
It’s strange that increasing from a 250 ft lb .38 special to a 400 ft lb 9 mm creates a better personal defense round but increasing from up to and past 700 ft lbs is pointless.
The context is critical.

Most often, the context is the FBI penetration tests. The thing about the FBI penetration tests is that they provide a hard threshold. Pass the threshold and the FBI (and therefore most of American LE as well as a lot of the people who follow the FBI's lead) consider that ammunition to be suitable personal defense. If the threshold isn't met then the round isn't considered suitable for personal defense.

So, let's take 3 handgun calibers, A, B, and C.

Let's say that A and B vary only slightly in terms of energy, momentum, and bullet diameter but A can not meet the threshold established by the FBI's testing protocol.

Let's say that B and C are quite different in terms of energy, momentum, and bullet diameter and both meet the threshold established by the FBI's testing protocol.

Then A would be considered to be unsuitable for personal defense even though it's quite similar to B.

Both B and C would be considered suitable for personal defense even though they are quite different from each other in just about every way possible. Does that mean they are considered to be equivalent? No, it means they are both considered to be sufficient.
 

Sanch

New member
Zeke,

"Full-power" 10MM loads might be difficult to find because for self-defense, they produce diminishing returns.

.40 cal is most effective firing 180 grain bullets at ~1000 FPS.
 

Forte S+W

New member
Catfishman said:
It’s interesting to me that people still say the 10mm is no more effective than 9mm, 40 s&w or 45 acp even though they are more powerful. I think the logic is that since 10 mm doesn’t create the devastating tissue damage of a high powered rifle round it’s extra power is unnecessary. It’s strange that increasing from a 250 ft lb .38 special to a 400 ft lb 9 mm creates a better personal defense round but increasing from up to and past 700 ft lbs is pointless.

It's not so much that it is no more effective than 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP, but rather that the increase in effectiveness falls victim to diminishing returns in which the increase in performance isn't worth all of the drawbacks involved, particularly the risk of overpenetration.
Full Power 10mm Auto loads just fall within a weird spot when it comes to effectiveness in which the round is simultaneously overpowered for use against human beings, yet that excess energy doesn't translate into increased effectiveness because more often then not it's just going to zip right through a person without transferring much if any of it's energy into the target, and even if someone were to engineer a bullet for Full Power 10mm loads that wouldn't overpenetrate, the energy transfer might at most stun the recipient for a moment longer due to the pain/disorientation of that massive energy surge through their soft tissue, but it really wouldn't do much more physical damage, and there's the rub.

If you like 10mm Auto, feel more confident carrying it, and believe that full-power 10mm Auto provides a tangible advantage over more common semiautomatic pistol cartridges, then by all means carry it. It will certainly get the job done and is without question a more powerful, more effective cartridge than 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. However, said effectiveness is objectively more appreciable against creatures which take more oomph to bring down than a human being who most likely drop just as readily when shot with a weaker cartridge, which is less expensive, more readily available, chambered in smaller, lighter, easy to carry firearms which are also less expensive.

Bottom line, with proper shot placement, even a .380 ACP fired from a Pocket Pistol will generally stop an attacker, so most people prefer to carry a smaller, lighter, firearm which is less expensive to feed and more pleasant to train with like a .38 Special Snubby or a Subcompact 9mm Pistol.
 

mikejonestkd

New member
Full Power 10mm Auto loads just fall within a weird spot when it comes to effectiveness in which the round is simultaneously overpowered for use against human beings, yet that excess energy doesn't translate into increased effectiveness because more often then not it's just going to zip right through a person without transferring much if any of it's energy into the target, and even if someone were to engineer a bullet for Full Power 10mm loads that wouldn't overpenetrate, the energy transfer might at most stun the recipient for a moment longer due to the pain/disorientation of that massive energy surge through their soft tissue, but it really wouldn't do much more physical damage, and there's the rub.

a nice read on the topic.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/1916018_Scientific_Evidence_for_Hydrostatic_Shock
 

wild cat mccane

New member
If I were limited to 10mm, I wouldn't select XTP loaded hot for defense. By function, Hornady's XTP penetrates and has controlled/limited expansion. There is no reason to hot rod load an XTP for anything but hunting. It's the reason XTP in .380 is one of the best .380 hollow points. 380 in XTP goes deep with limited expansion where other hollow points explode in expansion. That isn't what you want in 9mm and up when all other rounds reach sufficient penetration.

Even though loaded about .40 levels, I think your personal defense question is answered by the Gold Dot 200gr factory load or the HST 200gr factory load. That is full power personal defense. I think the skiving on the HST/Gold Dot along with Federal/CCI's bonding is just superior making a less crumpled mess or fast folded pedal like you see in Hornady Critical line (expanded too fast). Any boutique loading of the Gold Dot isn't netting you what you might think. Some people have shown these loads expand too fast and don't get penetration.

If they cost the same, I would pick the Gold Dot/HST factory loads over any hot rod other bullet.
 
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Forte S+W

New member
@mikejones
That was indeed an interesting report, and I thank you for sharing it with me. The details shared within are largely consistent with my own beliefs on the phenomenon colloquially referred to as "Hydrostatic Shock" based on similar reports and articles on the subject.
Unfortunately, "Hydrostatic Shock" is still widely regarded as an unproven theory rather than scientific fact, and it has been so thoroughly denigrated, criticized, and dismissed by authoritarian figures based on equally if not more unproven anecdotal evidence such as those proposed by Dr. Fackler.

I find it quite amusing that the FBI just so happens to use a level of ballistics performance in testing as a benchmark which also just so happens to be the threshold for Hydrostatic Shock, yet they continue to assert that any begotten advantage larger diameter bullets with more kinetic energy is marginal at best, while also neglecting to mention that the 9mm loads they used are an overpressure variant with energy levels well beyond that of standard pressure loads. So they say .40 S&W and .45 ACP are no more effective than 9mm Luger, yet don't bother to mention that they're using 9mm loads which are essentially poor-man's .357 SIG.

That all being said, it's important to note that one of the closing statements in said report is, and I quote...

With a handgun, no wounding mechanism can be relied on to produce incapacitation 100% of the time within the short span of most gunfights. Selecting a good self-defense load is only a small part of surviving a gunfight. You have to hit an attacker to hurt him, and you need a good plan for surviving until your hits take effect. Get good training, practice regularly, learn to use cover, and pray that you will never have a lethal force encounter armed only with a handgun.

The report itself concludes that Hydrostatic Shock is not a guaranteed method of incapacitation, that accurate/decisive hits are what ultimately decides the outcome of a gunfight, and most importantly that handguns are less than ideal for self-defense.
Ergo although Hydrostatic Shock may indeed be possible with more powerful handgun cartridges capable of consistently delivering 500ft-lbs or more kinetic energy, and the resulting Hydrostatic Shock may result in remote wounding of vitals under ideal circumstances, it's not guaranteed to result in incapacitation.
Furthermore, the closing statement stresses the importance of proper tactics/training, and full-power 10mm Auto loads tend to be uncommon as well as expensive, thus making training with 10mm more difficult than more common cartridges.
Last but not least, full-power 10mm Auto tends to overpenetrate, ergo Hydrostatic Shock most likely wouldn't occur at all since the energy isn't dumped into the attacker's body.

@wild cat mccane
Unfortunately, XTPs are known to overpenetrate in .40 S&W, so a hot loaded 10mm XTP would only penetrate worse, assuming the higher velocity didn't cause it to fragment inside the body of the attacker.
 
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Nanuk

New member
My current carry piece is a full size 1911 in 10mm. My current carry load is a handload of 180 grain winchester sxt bullets over a charge of CFE pistol. They should be in the +/- 1200 fps range. That extra 200-300 fps and the corospondinging energy increase over the 40 S&W is significant.
 

wild cat mccane

New member
But is the result on target significant? All you made mention is an increased FPS.

Here's what I mean. The 9mm HST in 147gr +P went 1,000 FPS in the Lucky Gunner test and went as far (20") and expanded as much (.6") as the best 357mag load that went 1,600 FPS. That is a higher FPS change than what you just described. What this shows is the 9mm HST is better as a self defense bullet. Same expansion, same penetration. 600 FPS (!) slower than the Barnes XBP 357mag. Small size. weight didn't make a difference in the two important measures. Speed didn't make a difference. AND that's on top of the fact that Barnes XBP is arguably one of the best bullet type as it is a harder all copper construction.

It's not just FPS. In fact, FPS is largely the least important point with these new bullets. At some point, these better bullets DON'T do well with higher FPS. On older bullets it does WORSE because they aren't bonded--ie jacket separates or they break up. On the Silver Tips? Probably good. Can a newer Gold Dot do better with a lower FPS? Absolutely it can.

If not, Federal 9BPLE at +P+ 1,300 would be THE 9mm round. It isn't.
 
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Cosmodragoon

New member
Gel is very useful as it provides a uniform media for comparison. However, bad guys are not made of gel. They are made of different tissues with different properties, can be wearing all sorts of different clothing, and tend to be full of bones.

Sure, bullets that behave a certain way in gel might have some general advantages under a certain subset of real-life circumstances. It's important to understand the difference between that and all circumstances. It's also important to understand that what matters for defensive encounters is how a particular bad guy will respond to the effect of a particular bullet on the particular structures within their body under whatever particular set of circumstances that happen to be the case.

So velocity might not be a big factor for a particular bullet type on hits to soft tissue. Is that also true when passing through bone? How about passing through a hand or forearm and then entering a chest cavity? What if it is the only shot you got and it hits something like a hip, thigh, or shoulder? The point is, we shouldn't be quick to write off factors like mass or velocity without adequate modeling for all the possibilities.
 

wild cat mccane

New member
Vista Outdoors has results for HST and Gold Dots through gel, plywood, windshield glass, and a steel plate...9mm Gold Dot beats Gold Dot 357mag in two of those. Worth checking out.
 
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