reynolds357
New member
I am in the process of building a 26 Nosler, but I doubt it will be any flatter than my 270 Roy shooting long Bergers.
flattest shooting 500 yard deer rifle cartridge
- Thread starter Deaf Smith
- Start date
DukeMakedo
New member
What caliber to choose?
I have a similar question. Am a newbie. I want a rifle for deer, but also to play at shooting targets at long distance. Am teetering between getting a .308(all those bullet choices, but is more affected by plains wind); or .270 (shoots so flat, and carries a hard hit to plains distances, but maybe too damaging at distances of less than 150 yds), or 7mm-08( high BC, fun for targets, but factory ammo isn't at Wal-Mart). I like that .270 and .308 factory ammo is so easy to find.
Anyone have advice?
--And Thompson Center Arms has the Dimension rifle with easily swappable barrels. A person can get a .308 rifle, and then buy swappable barrels for 22-250, .243, or 7mm-08. For the newbie, that idea is tempting, if the rifle is good, and the barrels are rugged, and not too expensive to swap. Any opinions on the Thompson Dimension?
I have a similar question. Am a newbie. I want a rifle for deer, but also to play at shooting targets at long distance. Am teetering between getting a .308(all those bullet choices, but is more affected by plains wind); or .270 (shoots so flat, and carries a hard hit to plains distances, but maybe too damaging at distances of less than 150 yds), or 7mm-08( high BC, fun for targets, but factory ammo isn't at Wal-Mart). I like that .270 and .308 factory ammo is so easy to find.
Anyone have advice?
--And Thompson Center Arms has the Dimension rifle with easily swappable barrels. A person can get a .308 rifle, and then buy swappable barrels for 22-250, .243, or 7mm-08. For the newbie, that idea is tempting, if the rifle is good, and the barrels are rugged, and not too expensive to swap. Any opinions on the Thompson Dimension?
603Country
New member
Duke, you probably need to start your own thread, rather than tag into this one.
As to your question, i’d probably get a 308 if you don’t reload. More ammo options.
As to your question, i’d probably get a 308 if you don’t reload. More ammo options.
The external ballistics table I looked at doesn't support that claim. 22 Caliber bullets have relatively low ballistic coefficients (BC). As a result, the difference in drop between a 50 gr launched from a Swift at 4000 fps and a 140 gr launched at 3300 fps from a 7mm Mag (for example) is negligible (an inch or two at 500 yds). And other more powerful magnums with higher BCs will shoot even flatter.
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Colorado Redneck
New member
26 Nosler and good scope & rangefinder
A 129 gr Nosler Long Range Accubond at 3100 fps should drop around 24 inches at 500 yards, depending on altitude, temp, humidity. A decent scope with repeatable elevation adjustments will easily set for a dead on hold, once ya get the hang of it. A bit of range time, or in your case you could practice at your brother-in-law's place, and you should do fine. You would probably really benefit from shooting prairie rats at long range with a similar set up in a 22-250. Amazing how hands on shooting live targets can improve shooting geared for deer hunting. I envy you, Deaf. I'm getting long in the tooth, so stumbling around the canyons and prickly pear is more taxing every year. Be fun to sit in a barn with a good bench, gun rest, binoculars, coffee, and wait for bambi. You lucky cuss.
A 129 gr Nosler Long Range Accubond at 3100 fps should drop around 24 inches at 500 yards, depending on altitude, temp, humidity. A decent scope with repeatable elevation adjustments will easily set for a dead on hold, once ya get the hang of it. A bit of range time, or in your case you could practice at your brother-in-law's place, and you should do fine. You would probably really benefit from shooting prairie rats at long range with a similar set up in a 22-250. Amazing how hands on shooting live targets can improve shooting geared for deer hunting. I envy you, Deaf. I'm getting long in the tooth, so stumbling around the canyons and prickly pear is more taxing every year. Be fun to sit in a barn with a good bench, gun rest, binoculars, coffee, and wait for bambi. You lucky cuss.
As far back as in the 1960s when I was growing up, we watched a group that shot at the 1000 yard bench matches set up to hunt deer across a reservoir and they killed deer out to as far as 1400 yards. They would go to the same spot every year and set up. Since it was the same area, they had land marks to judge the distance and their target experience showed them how to dope the wind. We were kids and thought this was the neatest thing. The rifles as I recall included the aforementioned 6.5-300 Weatherby, the 7mm-300 Weatherby, 308 Norma Magnum and 30-338 Winchester Magnum. I am sure there were others but I can remember those 4. Good luck with your long range hunting.
OzeanJaeger
New member
"In ballistics, the ballistic coefficient (BC) of a body is a measure of its ability to overcome air resistance in flight. It is inversely proportional to the negative acceleration: a high number indicates a low negative acceleration--the drag on the projectile is small in proportion to its mass."
How could it not support that a smaller bullet has a lower mass, and therefore a lower BC? I'm not discounting shape and air restance, but that aspect is minor when comparing apples to apples bullet shapes with similar masses.
Which magnums are flatter? 7mm-08 is really flat. 7mm Rem Mag running a very light bullet is very flat (as you point out). 7mmSAUM is really flat. What's flatter? They're not the flattest out to 500 yds. The varminter cartridges are flatter. Then the magnums keep going, and the varmint cartridges dump speed and drop faster relative to distance from the muzzle.
To my point, the really flat shooting rifles have the highest muzzle velocity, at the expense of the bullets having low BC (because of lower mass mainly), and they decelerate much faster (because of a low BC), making them middlin' range rifles and not long range rifles, but at those middlin' ranges they are flatter shooting. A few inches may not be a ton in your estimation, but it's flatter (flattest). The point that they're not flatter is when their speed drops below those of the heavier and higher BC bullets, but because they're faster they've already covered more distance and the slower, higher BC bullet needs to catch up, so it's actually beyond that point where they're traveling at the same speed. If you start out 1,000 FPS faster you can afford to dump speed down range and still stay flatter out to middle distances. That's simply physics. All objects (bullets) drop at about the same rate, so the one covering more distance goes farther before dropping the same amount.
I can't tell what your disagreement is. Is it you don't like they way I describe it?
My "disagreement" is with what I originally quoted.
And I gave an example of why I believe your simple statements above are misleading.
22 Caliber bullets have BCs of about .25. Many big game bullets have much higher BCs, .5 or even higher, which means they shed velocity at a much slower rate.
So a 220 Swift launching a 50gr at 4000 fps sheds velocity much faster than a 7mm Mag launching a 140gr at 3300 fps. With both rifles zeroed at 300 yds, trajectory tables show the Swift and the 7mm Mag examples with nearly identical (within an inch or so) drops below the scope zero at 500 yds. And it's also interesting to note that at the 500 yard point, the 7mm bullets will be traveling nearly 300 fps faster than the 22 bullet, even though the 22 started out 700 fps faster.
So from a practical standpoint, the flattest shooting high power rifles suitable for deer have trajectories very comparable to the fast "varmint rifles".
No need to take my word for it, find a ballistic table and give it a look.
And I gave an example of why I believe your simple statements above are misleading.
22 Caliber bullets have BCs of about .25. Many big game bullets have much higher BCs, .5 or even higher, which means they shed velocity at a much slower rate.
So a 220 Swift launching a 50gr at 4000 fps sheds velocity much faster than a 7mm Mag launching a 140gr at 3300 fps. With both rifles zeroed at 300 yds, trajectory tables show the Swift and the 7mm Mag examples with nearly identical (within an inch or so) drops below the scope zero at 500 yds. And it's also interesting to note that at the 500 yard point, the 7mm bullets will be traveling nearly 300 fps faster than the 22 bullet, even though the 22 started out 700 fps faster.
So from a practical standpoint, the flattest shooting high power rifles suitable for deer have trajectories very comparable to the fast "varmint rifles".
No need to take my word for it, find a ballistic table and give it a look.
OzeanJaeger
New member
I'm familiar with ballistics tables and reloading tables. I'm familiar with using a rifle to kill deer.
I can cherry pick a different comparison that makes the difference much more stark.
We don't disagree, and I don't care to argue with you just to argue.
I can cherry pick a different comparison that makes the difference much more stark.
We don't disagree, and I don't care to argue with you just to argue.
jackstrawIII
New member
I do not know anyone who has ever attempted (or would ever attempt) a 500 yard shot on a deer. Not that that's overly helpful for your question... so how about the 257 Weatherby Mag?
I'm just another opinion.I really like my 257 R AI. I get over 3000 fps with the 115 gr Ballistic tip. That bullet has a BC of about .430.Not bad at the ranges I shoot.
IMO,with most 25 cal bullets that stabilize with the common 1 in 10 twist,I would not choose a 25 for extreme ranges.Better bullet choices are available in 6mm and 6.5 mm.The bullet folks just have not focused on the .25.
I don't aspire to shoot game at 600 yds.If I did,I'd probably look for a bullet of maybe a .550 plus,and a velocity of 2800 plus.And still,the OPTICS to do the job.
I don't care the bore or cartridge. The right .243 might be fine. So might a .338 Lapua.
In any case,you need to know the range and the wind.
IMO,with most 25 cal bullets that stabilize with the common 1 in 10 twist,I would not choose a 25 for extreme ranges.Better bullet choices are available in 6mm and 6.5 mm.The bullet folks just have not focused on the .25.
I don't aspire to shoot game at 600 yds.If I did,I'd probably look for a bullet of maybe a .550 plus,and a velocity of 2800 plus.And still,the OPTICS to do the job.
I don't care the bore or cartridge. The right .243 might be fine. So might a .338 Lapua.
In any case,you need to know the range and the wind.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
I've read and heard beaucoup talk about flat-shooting cartridges since the introduction of the 7mm Remington Magnum in 1962.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but it seems as though folks are trying to substitute technology for skill. Now, with laser range finders, "flatness" is much less important.
As far as "killability", I'm influenced by witnesses' stories about my father's kills at 500 yards. .30-06 sporterized Springfield. 6X scope. 150-grain Hornady Spire Points loaded to GI specs with 4895. MV of 2,700?
I've loaded my 26" '06 to around 3,100 with 150-grain bullets. With a laser, I'd have no fear of the effect of a hit at 500 yards. I've centered the plate at my own 500-yard target.
So, yeah, velocity is good. But it's not the be-all and end-all in hunting.
Maybe I'm too cynical, but it seems as though folks are trying to substitute technology for skill. Now, with laser range finders, "flatness" is much less important.
As far as "killability", I'm influenced by witnesses' stories about my father's kills at 500 yards. .30-06 sporterized Springfield. 6X scope. 150-grain Hornady Spire Points loaded to GI specs with 4895. MV of 2,700?
I've loaded my 26" '06 to around 3,100 with 150-grain bullets. With a laser, I'd have no fear of the effect of a hit at 500 yards. I've centered the plate at my own 500-yard target.
So, yeah, velocity is good. But it's not the be-all and end-all in hunting.
Don Fischer
New member
No cartridge is flat shooting at 500yds. A bullet that drops 20" below the line of sight is in no way flat shooting! There are people that make hit's at 500yds by pure luck that cannot do it again on the next shot and there are people that really understand how to shoot that do it on a regular basis. At some point the trajectory of the bullet fall's far enough below line of sight and it will shoot under the deer. At that point flat is not a good way to describe the cartridge. Now at 500yds one guy has a cartridge he needs to hold over x# inch's and another guy that has to hold over twice that. But, both hit the target because they understand how to shoot, neither cartridge would I consider flat. So looking for a cartridge you can regularly make good hit's at 500yds with? Doesn't exist unless the shooter's learn's to shoot at 500yds. Then the cartridge trajectory will make little difference!
Don Fischer
New member
The only thing that helps is learning to shoot at long range! Cartridge will pretty much make no difference.
I agree with the last few posts.
The concept of "flat shooting rifle" does not go that far.
We have learned to range and correct.
A 175 gr 308 at <2700 fps will do just fine.
The 257 Weatherby was mentioned. The cartridge had its day.It was highly regarded in the days of pursuing the "flat shooting rifle"
It was also known for burning out barrels.
I'm not bashing anyone's beloved 257 Weatherby. I was merely making the point that if building a long range rifle is the plan,start by looking at the long range bullets available.Pick one based on your needs.
The bullet manufacturers have done more development on 6mm and 6.5 mm and not much for 25 cal.Most 25 cal rifles are twisted 1 in 10.
As much as I like my 257 AI,its great at the distances I hunt,I can't get a much better bullet than a 115 gr Ballistic tip at a BC of around .430.
In that respect,the .257 won't keep up with 6mm. The bullet companies and barrel companies answered the needs of 1000 yd shooters.
I can buy better long range 6mm and 6.5 mm bullets.And 7mm and 30 cal.
Agreed,nothing I know of "shoots flat"beyond about 400 yds. We have to adjust.
The concept of "flat shooting rifle" does not go that far.
We have learned to range and correct.
A 175 gr 308 at <2700 fps will do just fine.
The 257 Weatherby was mentioned. The cartridge had its day.It was highly regarded in the days of pursuing the "flat shooting rifle"
It was also known for burning out barrels.
I'm not bashing anyone's beloved 257 Weatherby. I was merely making the point that if building a long range rifle is the plan,start by looking at the long range bullets available.Pick one based on your needs.
The bullet manufacturers have done more development on 6mm and 6.5 mm and not much for 25 cal.Most 25 cal rifles are twisted 1 in 10.
As much as I like my 257 AI,its great at the distances I hunt,I can't get a much better bullet than a 115 gr Ballistic tip at a BC of around .430.
In that respect,the .257 won't keep up with 6mm. The bullet companies and barrel companies answered the needs of 1000 yd shooters.
I can buy better long range 6mm and 6.5 mm bullets.And 7mm and 30 cal.
Agreed,nothing I know of "shoots flat"beyond about 400 yds. We have to adjust.
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BeeShooter
New member
Scorch and Don Fisher pretty much says it all. No rifle is flat shooting especially at 500 yrds. The moment a bullet leaves the barrel it starts to drop. That drop really isn't as much of a factor as , let's say, stability at velocity. I think I understand what you're asking though. Never compromise on accuracy. Above all else, accuracy is the most important consideration and sometimes the hardest to achieve. Obviously energy at PoI needs to be where you want it.
There have been very few instances where the deer I really wanted to shoot was 500 yards away. Most have been under 350...perfect for my .270 Win, sighted 1.3" high at 100 yards. No holdover beyond the back, out to 350 yds, or a bit more.
We each tend to see 10 or more deer at one particular stand; some years over 40.
We each tend to see 10 or more deer at one particular stand; some years over 40.
There have been very few instances where the deer I really wanted to shoot was 500 yards away. Most have been under 350...perfect for my .270 Win, sighted 1.3" high at 100 yards. No holdover beyond the back, out to 350 yds, or a bit more.
I've had good results with 130 grain Ballistic Tips...MV 3,200 fps. chronographed...from a 24" barrel.
We each tend to see 10 or more deer at one particular stand; some years over 40.
JP
I've had good results with 130 grain Ballistic Tips...MV 3,200 fps. chronographed...from a 24" barrel.
We each tend to see 10 or more deer at one particular stand; some years over 40.
JP