DONT LIKE SIG

[7th Fleet]

Glock Vs Sig ETC

Glocks are just the present "flavor of the month>>>>>>>>>>


With over 65 percent of the Law Enforcement market covered in this country. Wouldn't you think that it's a little more than the flavor of the month.

Apparently the fact that all alloy framed guns, have a projected service life of around 10,000 rounds, apparently doesn't concern the followers of Sig, S&W, Beretta or other aluminum framed handguns. This according according to the FBI tests conducted in 1987-88. I still have the results of those tests, that were given to us LEO Firearms Instuctors when we went back to "Revolver to Auto Pistol Transistion School) in 1988, when my agency was switching over from wheel guns to semiautos. My agency chose Glocks as did most others, due to the fact that they are reliable and rust free, have outstanding after sales backup from the factory and have a very long service life. I have seen hundreds of Glocks and I have never seen a rusty Glock. There isn't a Sig, S&W, Beretta made, that will last anywhere near as long as a Glock 17/19. There is a public shooting range in California that has rental pistols. There is an early model Glock 17 that has a documented 1 million rounds through the same slide, barrel and reciever. We learned of this about 2 years ago when we went back to Glock Armorers School for recertificatiom as Glock Armorers.

If you people are happy with a limited life span weapon, with a tendency to crack frames and loose their slides (Beretta) then I'm thrilled for you. But those of us who acgtually use our weapons in our profession, expect much more from them.

7th... Leo Firearms Instructor FBI/NRA IALEFI Glock Armorer

 

[Zander]

It's silly to repeat this myth...

"Apparently the fact that all alloy framed guns, have a projected service life of around 10,000 rounds, apparently doesn't concern the followers of Sig, S&W, Beretta or other aluminum framed handguns." -- 7th Fleet

...but I suppose you need some excuse to continue carrying a pistol with an unnerving history of going kaBoom!.

No, Tupperguns don't rust [you probably have an anecdote of a SIG w/ stainless slide "rusting", don't you?] and they are fine pistols when they don't self-destruct. <shrug>

"If you people are happy with a limited life span weapon, with a tendency to crack frames and loose [sic] their slides (Beretta) then I'm thrilled for you. But those of us who
acgtually use our weapons in our profession, expect much more from them."

As opposed to, say, the SEALs or Texas Rangers? LOL!!!

 

[7th Fleet]

Service Life

Apparently some of you have never heard of the slide retention device, that the factory has added to newer model Beretta 92Fs, inorder to retain the slide incase of a slide fracture. The fact that the U.S. military has publicly stated that the slides on 92Fs, have a service life of 1000 rounds and is a replacement item. Also that servicemen have been injured by catastrophic slide failures, is a fact which you either don't know of or don't care about.

Also the fact that Sig's and S$W's have had clearly documented problems with cracked frames is no myth. But is apparently a fact that you choose to live with and overlook.

It seems that some people aren't interested in the truth and had rather live with their hot off the press, latest gun rag propaganda or gunshop commando misinformation. Believe what you want. I'm out of this thread for now, its a waste of time, you're minds are made up and simply don't want to be confused by the facts that don't fit in with your comfortable preconceptions.

But true to the original intent of this thread, I don't like Sigs, I tried them and there are much better weapons available, such as Glocks, H$K's, and 1911s.



7th

 

[SigmundSauer]

Yes, SIG did have some earlier ('80s era) frame cracking problems. They've since been remedied. So too did Beretta have slide failures (what you didn't hear was that the ammo that caused them was overpressured, running in excess of 70,000 psi!!!).

Every pistol has their weakness. Including Glocks. Trigger springs breaking, slides rails being pulled out of the Nylon 66 and causing stess fracures, and... oh by the way, KaBooms from blowing up because they have unsupported chambers in many of their models, short lock time, and the undesireable feature of firing when partially out of battery. (by the way, those KaBooms caused Federal to secretly redesign their .40 cal cases reinforcing the casing so that they wouldn't be liable for their ammo blowing up a Glock!!). I wouldn't place blind faith in your glock.

All pistols can fail. Calculate your risk.

SS

 

[bullseye1]

SIG is simply the best. The fact is SIGs are by far better than most owners. SIG produces a quality, precision instrument. Glocks and other fine handguns will be adequate for those shooters who are average, ie FBI agents and many law enforcement officers (It just doesn't make any sense to provide these people with a Swiss quality handgun). But, professionals demand a superb handgun, and that is the SIG. This is my unbiased opinion.

Comparing a SIG to a Glock or other fine handgun is like comparing a Rolex watch to a plastic Timex watch. If a watch were a hangun, you wouldn't expect law enforcement agencies to issue Rolex watches; no, Timex would be issued. Ergo, plastic Glocks are issued instead of quality SIGs. The only reason the FBI went to Glocks is because they have drastically increased the number of agents and therefore had to cut-back on expenditures.

 

[Shake]

Hey 7th fleet, the following statement was correct at some past date (try ten years ago, if not more):

"The fact that the U.S. military has publicly stated that the slides on 92Fs, have a service life of 1000 rounds and is a replacement item"

. . . but don't try to spoon feed quotes that no longer have any validity.

Maybe you can tell us all how it is that the strongest military power on earth selected such a POS handgun for its troops? I don't want to hear some lame excuse about price either. Even the army bean counters can figure that if you're replacing slides (or cracked frames for that matter) every 1000 rounds it doesn't make good economic sense to keep using the Beretta.

I don't believe the Beretta is the "Best Handgun On Earth" (doesn't exist), but it's a little bit silly to try to tell people they will only last 10,000 rounds.

Shake

 

[Shake]

By the way, I'd like to see the GLOCK fire the (over pressure) ammo that caused the slide separations. Can you say Kboom with capital K.

Don't have anything against GLOCKS (except grip angle).

Just seems like some are so close-minded about things. . .


Shake

 

[SigmundSauer]

Shake,

Amen. Bottle that and sell it for a profit!

SS

(psst. SIGs are the best.)

 

[Shake]

Hey SS, in my quest for the "perfect handgun" I've yet to purchase a SIG. It just hasn't been high enough on my list yet. I will certainly buy one in the future as too many people say they are excellent to ignore them. Beretta finally climbed to the top of my list when they came out with the Elite II. Always figured I would buy a 92FS, just wasn't tickled enought to buy one til I saw the Elite II.

Any picks for best SIG out there?

Shake

 

[J. Parker]

Shake; I've owned a couple of P-220's, a P-225, and a P229 in 40 cal. All three are exceptional pistols IMO. I'm sold on the P-220 as my 45 cal pistol. The P-229 was real sweet too. Damn, I shouldn't have sold it. Best Regards, J. Parker

 

[7th Fleet]

Limited Durability Handguns

I have stayed out of this thread for the last couple of days, but the BS has gotten pretty deep in here and a few glaringly wrong things have been posted and need to be addressed.

<<<<<<<By the way, I'd like to see the GLOCK fire the (over pressure) ammo that caused the slide separations. Can you say Kboom with capital K. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


If you can call 18,000 PSI an over pressure round, then that was the problem, but the round in question that caused the injuries with the Beretta, was the 147 grain subsonic at 18K psi. "The military says the problem is the gun - Beretta says its ammunition. The ammunition has a case mouth pressure of 18,000 lbs which is less than Standard Commerical 9mm."
So much for your disinformation, of 70K PSI, check your sources of information before you start posting them as the truth on the web.


<<<<<<<<<Hey 7th fleet, the following statement was correct at some past date (try ten years ago, if not more): >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So what, the model guns that the FBI tested are still the same and are still being manufactured and sold to the public to this very day. In the case of the Beretta the only significant difference is the slide retention device they have since added, to retain the slide in case of a fracture. The slides still fracture, they just don't fly off the back and smack the shooters in the face anymore, the slide retention device retains the broken slide on the frame.


Also the Navy SEALS adopted the Sig and will not carry the 92F due to the injury problems. They can live with the cracked frames since they do not endanger their personnel by failing in a harmful manner. The guns are still serviceable even with cracked frames.

Next problem that you people are ignoring is the fact that the FBI's procurement policy states, that any handgun that they adopt must have a service life of at least 40,000 rounds and a barrel life of 20,000 rounds. The Glock pistol can easily meet and exceed these reqirements and none of the alloy framed guns can even approach these numbers.

I quote directly from their manual:
"The FBI intends that the general issue weapon provided to every Agent last for that agents ENTIRE career. To this end, future FBI procurements will require a service life on the order of 40,000 rounds. Service life is defined as the life of the SLIDE and the FRAME, but not the barrel or other parts. The barrel should last 20,000 rounds." This is why the FBI doesn't carry Sigs, Smiths or any other aluminum framed weapon. An alloy framed gun can not pass the durability testing, pure and simple! So if you want your alloy framed gun to last as long as a Glock, buy 4 or 5 spares as backups. LOL

I have never seen this information in any of the general circulation gun magazines and it is not commonly know by laymen, outside of the LEO Firearms Instructor community. If you choose to ignore it, that's cool, but the fact remains that any alloy framed handgun has a limited lifespan and all of your whistling past the graveyard bravado, in defense of your choice of a personal defense weapon is silly at best and grossly uninformed at its worst. The facts that I have posted are straight from the manual, that we LEO Firearms Instructors recieved from the Firearms Training Unit at Quantico Va. This information is easily verified, if anybody wants to drop a dime to their local FBI office and talk to their resident Firearms Instructor.

What is your source other than your oppinions and you know what they say about opinions??????

7th

 

[DAKODAKID]

???

Why not just use an HK and be done with all
the BS????
From my MK23 to my P7, I think HK makes the best.
The End..

 

[J. Parker]

The San Bernardino County Sheriffs dept. is the largest in the country. Glock was in such a hurry to make a fast buck they sent a bunch of DEFECTIVE GLOCKS to the department. Sounds like we've got a QUALITY CONTROL problem to me. Glock Perfection? Keep dreamin' dude. Hey, maybe a few of those G-21's were sent to retailers in your area? Better be careful!

 

[J. Parker]

Oh wait, I just thought of another Glock debacle. Early nineties, California Highway Patrol (CHP) wants to transition to the 40 CAL pistol. Guess who won? The unassuming S&W 4006. Yeah sure, the G-22's they tested were "prototypes". So what. Surely, Glock wouldn't send anything but the best "prototypes".

 

[Zander]

You just don't get it...

"This is why the FBI doesn't carry Sigs,..."

You'd do better if you stopped making such generalizations.

I know several FBI special agents personally; all but one carry a SIG. What's the date of the procurement policy you're quoting? Are you even aware that special agents may choose from several models and aren't restricted to just one?

Federal agencies choose SIG all the time, with the most popular model lately being the P229/.357SIG.

If you want to champion pistols that have a nasty habit of kB!'s and are involved in more ND's than any other pistol, go right ahead, but don't accuse us of not knowing the facts when you are consistently using generalizations and selectively quoting info for the purposes of your argument.

BTW, didn't you say you were dropping out of this discussion because we were too stubborn to adopt your conclusions?

I didn't miss you.

 

[Shake]

Hey 7th fleet, check my previous posts. I've never argued the fact that GLOCKS AREN'T good weapons. It seems if we don't agree with your opinions, we are very obviously stupid.

Kind of funny how OUR posts need to have documentation, but YOURS don't. You quote from an FBI manual that states that they won't use a firearm that won't last 40,000 rounds then tack on the end that they won't use alloy framed guns, blah blah blah. . . (interject 7th Fleet's personal opinion). Read us the part where it says they won't use alloy handguns (i.e. Berettas or SIGS). As other posters have mentioned, they do. Document the fact that a Beretta or a SIG won't last 40,000 rounds.

As far as the (undocumented) statement about the Beretta slide still fracturing, there are a heck of a lot of Berettas 92's and 96's out there Mr. Fleet. When is the last time you read a post here on TFL stating that their Beretta 92 slide had fractured? You would think it would be happening with some regularity since it happened, as you stated before, with subsonic ammo. Do Beretta owners just not shoot their guns? Seems the military would start having a concern about this with all their 92's. Funny you don't hear anything about that. do they use underpressure ammo so their slides won't fail?

The SEALS won't carry 92's becasue of injury problems? Didn't you just enlighten us all as to how Beretta fixed the 92 so that no more injuries would occur?

Please document the fact that the ammo that caused the slide failures in the Beretta's was 18,000 (psi?). Just because you put quotation marks around it doesn't make it gospel truth. Where did you get that info?

I would pose the same question to you: What are your sources other than YOUR opinions? The only qoute you gave was some obscure reference to service life that had nothing to say about alloy framed guns or the SIG and Beretta specifically.

Here is another little tidbit for you, GLOCKS have limited lifespans too. Shocking, but true. Any machine does.

Hope I didn't ruin your day with that revelation.

Give me a break!

Shake

 

[SigmundSauer]

7th Fleet,

You are right! There is a lot of B.S. floating around this thread and you are adding to it.

I must apologize for posting the business about the 70,000 psi overpressured cartridge it was over 7 months since I was able to cite that number for a military briefing that I delivered. I can't remember the source I extracted that information from and don't really feel like searching for it just to entertain you. However, I assure you that number is no B.S.

40,000 rounds eh? Well I can't speak for current law enforcement deliveries but the official policy from SIG was that they were warranting their P229s in .40 cal to LE agencies to 40,000 rds and that is an aluminum framed pistol. You are right, aluminum framed pistols do not last as long as some other designs. I'm positive you can cite instances of Glocks going a million rounds. I doubt I'll ever shoot that many in my pistol. This blanket statement that all aluminum framed pistols only going 10k is B.S. up and down. Let's see, the Army's JSSAP trials in the '80s involves shooting 20,000 hi pressured NATO rounds in a number of pistols of each type to determine reliability, durability among other things. Both the Beretta and SIGs passed with flying colors. Several years later the P228 was tested by the Army again in 15,000 round trials - similar results. If you've got a SIG whose frame won't go past 10k - you had bad luck, and I'm sure some have. SIG did have some poorly engineered lots of frames that would crack prematurely back in the '80s. Again, as mentioned earlier a cracked frame does not disable the pistol.

Again, I ask you 7th Fleet. I'm sure your Glock will outlast my P226 but I doubt you or I will ever put enough rounds through them to continue this thread tens of thousands of rounds from now. Plus, I doubt your Glock will outlast my sigpro (or outshoot it). Your Glock is a great pistol, my SIGs is a great pistols. If you insist in having a pistol that is less accurate and less reliable than my SIG that may outlast my pistol 10s of thousands of rounds from now -- by all means, entertain yourself.

SS

P.S.

Shake,

I think you asked for a recommendation on a SIG. If you can afford hi-caps I wouldn't hesitate to get a new stainless steel slide P226 in 9mm. If you want a sub-compact for cheap the P239 in 9mm, .40. or .357 SIG is the way to go. If you want a service size pistol that has great ergonomics, will put a Glock to a durability test, and is match accurate, all while preserving your pocket book -- I have been TOTALLY pleased with my sigpro. I've seen them in Shotgun news for between 4 and 5 hundred bucks new. Can't beat that for SIG quality!

 

[7th Fleet]

I did not make this information up and I have the manual from the FTU in front of me and admittedly the information is dated (late 80s) but it is still revelant. Since all of the pistols involved, are still currently being manufactured and sold in this country. As I stated earlier the basis for my information , which incidentially probably 99 percent of the people on this board aren't privy to since they are not LEO Firearms Instructors and simply do not have access to it. It was posted in the hopes that someone might find it of interest and of use to them in making the correct decisions. I do not intend to get into a pi$$ing contest with people of unknown skills and qualifications, whats the point? This entire thread is nothing more than a group hug for the Sig line of handguns, from the majority and anyone who states differently is automatically the outsider. I could care less what kinds of firearms that you invest in. For all I know most of the people on this thread aren't even old enough to own a gun, judging from the maturity level shown thus far. But anyone who has been around guns for any length of time knows what the problems with the Beretta were and that the 70K PSI figure posted was a fallacy, it is also common knowledge that the ammo was off the shelf subsonic and nothing more. Why would the FBI include that in a manual along with the other information that I have included? This information was distributed to FBI certified LEO Firearms Instructors all over this country. Like I said check it out.


7th

 

[Shake]

Hey 7th Fleet,

Sorry, no SIGS in my safe. I'll have to bow out of the "group hug" thing. Like there isn't constantly a GLOCK group hug active on this forum.

You still did not provide reference for your quote of the 70,000 psi rounds. All the documentation I have ever read on the subject indicates that there were TWO documented military (note I said military) slide failures with the Beretta.

I don't care what kind of qualifications you have. If you expect people to take you seriously I suggest you back off your statement saying that the Beretta's that failed did so with subsonic ammo. Imagine the countless rounds of +P ammo that have been shot through hundreds of thousands of Beretta 92's with no failures. I say again, with the numbers of 92's out there, there would be mass threads on this board just regarding the slide failures.

I would have to say that the slide failures in Beretta's have suffered from the same hysteria that Kb's in Glocks have. You know (well, maybe you don't) as well as I that Kb's are very rare in Glocks, yet people insist on not buying Glocks of a certain caliber simply because they are afraid of the whole Kb idea. the difference here is that you may be willing to accept that whole concept in regards to the Glock, but insist on perpetuating false information about Beretta's.

As for your reference to the skills and qualifications of the posters on this BB, remember, you were the first to stoop to the level of actually calling those into question. As far as your skills and qualifications, any idiot can claim any skills and qualifications they want. Just like your obscure quotation from some manual that doesn't support your point in the least (did it say something about alloy framed handguns or did I miss that part?).

You are seemingly upset about your treatment in this thread, but go back and read your posts and see for yourself what a condescending attitude you come off as having. Most people will take some criticisim of their choice of firearms if it is delivered objectively. Of course you are free to do as you like. See what kind of an attitude you develop the next time you are in one of your Glock "group hugs" and someone busts in saying they are a POS. It always goes both ways.

Hey SS, I'll have to do some shopping. I have a friend that has a 229 that is a pretty nice firearm. I'll have to do some research. Thanks for the info.

Shake

 

[IanS]

Glad all of you are out there studying every minutae of modern handgun design.

But after all these postings I'm reminded of those college discussions that lead into the wee hours of the night w/o any resolutions.

IMHO:

1. Most people who do such "research" on guns probably own more than 1 (more like 20+). So if one breaks just grab the other one.

2. I'm glad other people carry Berettas, Glocks, Kimbers, Sigs, Rugers and HKs. I wouldn't want everyone driving the same car or wear the same shoes as me. They're all interesting with different personalities and the bottom line; they all work.

3. Funny to see so many gun geeks out there. Sort of like the battle between Green Lantern and Superman or Cpt. Kirk vs. Spock.

4. All makes from Sigs, Glocks, Berettas and HKs for me have some deficiency or another. If we could combine the best qualities from each then we'll have a winner. (They tried w/Sigpro and USP) Build quality and accuracy of Sig and HK, durability and fast/consistent reset trigger of Glocks, and the smooth action and positive ejection of the Beretta. Maybe someday.

Oh and by the way the Sig P Series are the BEST!

You can drag out all the "facts" and "tests" you want. I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE ALL WRONG!