Cheney shoots hunting partner (multiple threads merged)
- Thread starter BillCA
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Capt. Charlie
Moderator Emeritus
Update!
Just came over CNN. It seems that some of the bird shot actually penetrated some of Whittington's heart muscle, triggering a mild heart attack. He's now been moved back to ICU.
Penetrated his heart? Sounds like the seriousness of the accident has been somewhat downplayed.
Just came over CNN. It seems that some of the bird shot actually penetrated some of Whittington's heart muscle, triggering a mild heart attack. He's now been moved back to ICU.
Penetrated his heart? Sounds like the seriousness of the accident has been somewhat downplayed.
Interesting possibility in this incident. What if: The "victim" suffers a second, more serious, heart attack and dies within a year-and-a-day? Afterall, he ain't no spring chicken and could potentially have another heart attack related to the first which (according to the news) was caused by the shooting.
Could we actually wind up with a VP geting charged with negligent homicide while in office? And what would THAT do for our 2nd Amendment rights?
Could we actually wind up with a VP geting charged with negligent homicide while in office? And what would THAT do for our 2nd Amendment rights?
loggerhead
Moderator
REALLY! I say a fellow shot straight on once in a dove field by his dad, from about 40 yards. He did not have on a shirt but did have on a vest. Most of the shot were just under the skin around the vest but one had hit him in that soft spot below the "adams apple" and it was out of sight or feel. it had to be picked out by a doctor. Maybe it "migrated" there too.
"Texas Parks and Wildlife Officials say they plan to give warning citations to Vice President Dick Cheney and the man he accidentally shot. The citations are for failing to buy a required hunting stamp for his license."
http://www.kcentv.com/news/c-article.php?cid=1&nid=9051
http://www.kcentv.com/news/c-article.php?cid=1&nid=9051
But How?
I read the same story on the web. It doesn't say how the pellet migrated to his heart. It could have been through a blood vessel. Then it would have acted like a blood clot.
I find it hard to believe that 8 shot could penetrate to the heart of a man at thirty yards. I suppose anything is possible.
Or as some have suggested, there is more to this story then we are led to believe.
I read the same story on the web. It doesn't say how the pellet migrated to his heart. It could have been through a blood vessel. Then it would have acted like a blood clot.
I find it hard to believe that 8 shot could penetrate to the heart of a man at thirty yards. I suppose anything is possible.
Or as some have suggested, there is more to this story then we are led to believe.
Harley Quinn
Moderator
Migrate is not the answer it is embedded
He has around 6 to 200 #71/2 in his body according to the article I read. I am sure that is incorrect, press playing word games.
That is almost a full load of shot in a 28 gauge 71/2 shot. Most of the shot is not going to be removed at this time, they say.
This sure clears up the discussion regarding the effect of bird shot out to 30 yds that has gone on about the effects of getting shot with a 12 gauge at 10 yds with # 8 shot.
HQ
He has around 6 to 200 #71/2 in his body according to the article I read. I am sure that is incorrect, press playing word games.
That is almost a full load of shot in a 28 gauge 71/2 shot. Most of the shot is not going to be removed at this time, they say.
This sure clears up the discussion regarding the effect of bird shot out to 30 yds that has gone on about the effects of getting shot with a 12 gauge at 10 yds with # 8 shot.
HQ
Well, I'll try to share below part of what I gleaned from today's edition of Dallas Morning News.
Quotes from Mrs. Pamela Willeford, the third person in the hunting party.
"We really thought he was way back behind us."
"The three of us were out of the vehicle hitting a covey. Harry Whittington dropped back to pick up a bird he'd shot. The vice president and I moved on to shoot another covey, and unbeknownst to us, Harry had picked up a bird and caught up with us. He had walked up, and we didn't realize that he had caught up with us."
"He was back behind us, and we turned off to the left to shoot another covey ... The bird came up and was going back down, and you know how you swing on it, with your gun, following a bird."
In a separate article, Outdoor writer Ray Sasser was rather objective, with headlines of "As hunting accidents go, Cheney's is not unusual" and "Vice President, victim share blame in incident, Texas experts say"
It included a quote from Steve Hall, TP&W's hunter education honcho: "In hunter education, we refer to that phenomenon as 'target fixation'. Every year, it's the primary cause of Texas bird-hunting accidents."
Dr. Dale Rollins, an A&M Extension Biologist explained that "having one member of a hunting party stray from the main group is always risky" and that "The protocol in quail hunting is to walk in a straight line to the pointing dogs and remain aware of the location of hunting partners."
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Yep, or as I stress in hunter ed. classes, "Plan your hunt, then hunt your plan." Sounds like they deviated. And unfortunately, are paying a steep price.
On a lighter note, when seeing one of the early newscasts on the tube, The Wife sez "28 gauge? Is that right?". I explained that they were somewhere between a .410 and a 20 gauge, somewhat of an expert's or often a "rich man's gun". She sez, "Oh, OK. We dont' have one of those, do we? But we've got just about everything else ..."
Quotes from Mrs. Pamela Willeford, the third person in the hunting party.
"We really thought he was way back behind us."
"The three of us were out of the vehicle hitting a covey. Harry Whittington dropped back to pick up a bird he'd shot. The vice president and I moved on to shoot another covey, and unbeknownst to us, Harry had picked up a bird and caught up with us. He had walked up, and we didn't realize that he had caught up with us."
"He was back behind us, and we turned off to the left to shoot another covey ... The bird came up and was going back down, and you know how you swing on it, with your gun, following a bird."
In a separate article, Outdoor writer Ray Sasser was rather objective, with headlines of "As hunting accidents go, Cheney's is not unusual" and "Vice President, victim share blame in incident, Texas experts say"
It included a quote from Steve Hall, TP&W's hunter education honcho: "In hunter education, we refer to that phenomenon as 'target fixation'. Every year, it's the primary cause of Texas bird-hunting accidents."
Dr. Dale Rollins, an A&M Extension Biologist explained that "having one member of a hunting party stray from the main group is always risky" and that "The protocol in quail hunting is to walk in a straight line to the pointing dogs and remain aware of the location of hunting partners."
-------------
Yep, or as I stress in hunter ed. classes, "Plan your hunt, then hunt your plan." Sounds like they deviated. And unfortunately, are paying a steep price.
On a lighter note, when seeing one of the early newscasts on the tube, The Wife sez "28 gauge? Is that right?". I explained that they were somewhere between a .410 and a 20 gauge, somewhat of an expert's or often a "rich man's gun". She sez, "Oh, OK. We dont' have one of those, do we? But we've got just about everything else ..."
Fixation
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I can't get over the fact that a pellet got to his heart. I wonder how that happened. One, eight shot projectile, penetrating enough flesh and bone to reach the heart seems far fetched.
Does anyone here have any facts that this could happen?
It has to have traveled their via a blood vessel.
Does anyone here agree?
I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I can't get over the fact that a pellet got to his heart. I wonder how that happened. One, eight shot projectile, penetrating enough flesh and bone to reach the heart seems far fetched.
Does anyone here have any facts that this could happen?
It has to have traveled their via a blood vessel.
Does anyone here agree?
Harley Quinn
Moderator
Thanks for the link about the shotgun XavierBreath
The shotgun is a nice piece. I recall when shooting at the trap range years ago the the custom guns and money involved, at that time it really seemed expensive, (it was). Was it lead pellets or steel?
I believe a pellet traveling at 1300 feet a sec. can enter your body very easly. I am not sure why some one always wants to compare a piece of plywood to the human skin and flesh.
I have had enough splinters to know they are stronger then my skin.
The truth is, I have seen and related to others, bird shot is deadly. Number 7 1/2 at 10 to 20 yds is devastating. Choke would not matter much either.
I don't care if it is a 410 or a 12 gauge, most likely where it hits you will be turned into hamburger real fast, along with clothing material impregnated of course, and the pellets.
HQ
The shotgun is a nice piece. I recall when shooting at the trap range years ago the the custom guns and money involved, at that time it really seemed expensive, (it was). Was it lead pellets or steel?
I believe a pellet traveling at 1300 feet a sec. can enter your body very easly. I am not sure why some one always wants to compare a piece of plywood to the human skin and flesh.
I have had enough splinters to know they are stronger then my skin.
The truth is, I have seen and related to others, bird shot is deadly. Number 7 1/2 at 10 to 20 yds is devastating. Choke would not matter much either.
I don't care if it is a 410 or a 12 gauge, most likely where it hits you will be turned into hamburger real fast, along with clothing material impregnated of course, and the pellets.
HQ
Size 7 1/2 shot pellet may have gone between ribs. Or "migrated".
Heavier "turkey loads" (typically 4's thru 6s) can and do penetrate lungs. At just 30 yards, it would not surprise me to see even 7 1/2 or 8's do it if not having to penetrate much clothing. Or if hitting a skinny old dude with not much muscle or body fat in upper torso.
Heavier "turkey loads" (typically 4's thru 6s) can and do penetrate lungs. At just 30 yards, it would not surprise me to see even 7 1/2 or 8's do it if not having to penetrate much clothing. Or if hitting a skinny old dude with not much muscle or body fat in upper torso.
XavierBreath
New member
If pellets are present in the muscle of a person, and that person has to move those same muscles to do tasks such as turning for dressing changes and God forbid (but likely) physical therapy, the pellets or any foreign body can be squeezed by the muscle fibers and move throughout the muscle. We have seen schrapnel migrate in old veterans years after it was thought to be stable.
By the same token, if the plureal membrane has been punctured, the pellet would be between two membranes that separate the inner chest wall and the lungs. Between these two membranes is a fluid that allows the lungs to slide along the inside of the chest as you breathe and the chest wall expands and changes shape through movement. In many areas this space would require only an inch penetration, in others less, to access. Once in that area (the plural space), the pellet only requires the act of breathing to be massaged by the organs into movement. The act of turning the patient or walking the patient can lead to dramatic migration in such an area.
The pericardium of the heart is also in the area. To elicit an aberrant rhythm in the heart, especially in an old man, one does not have to do much more than touch the area with a foreign body. This is why many older people are considered to be inoperable, and if cardiac surgery is performed, anti-arrhythmic drugs are given prior to the surgery. It is not uncommon for patients receiving a simple heart catheterization to have episodes of arrythmias.
I get every gunshot wound in my town (usually about three or four a year). I have seen foreign bodies migrate. I used to work cardiac bypasses. I have seen arrythmmias pop up from nowhere just because the wrong area of the heart muscle is touched. An old man is a precious and fragile being. We must take great care not to shoot them, whether with a high dollar Italian 28 gauge or a Wal-Mart Mossberg.
loggerhead
Moderator
The news paper article this morning said that the pellet was touching the heart muscle which more than likely would cause some aberrant rythm. If the pellet were "in" the area between the two membranes that seperate the chest wall from the lungs would it not move about but stay in that area???????
Man having a hard time trying to figure our which I would rather not do the most, Ride with Ted Kennedy or hunt with Dick Cheney.
Man having a hard time trying to figure our which I would rather not do the most, Ride with Ted Kennedy or hunt with Dick Cheney.
I'll go - if he treats! Hunting such a game ranch certainly isn't cheap...
He's not stupid and I doubt he'll be making the same mistake anytime soon. So he'll probably be pretty safe to hunt with. However, there's always the unknown of hunting with a "new" partner - never know what sort of habits/quirks they have.
Seen some really "way out" comments about this - bring it back in. Reality ain't straying, but I'm wondering where some folks are "going."
He's not stupid and I doubt he'll be making the same mistake anytime soon. So he'll probably be pretty safe to hunt with. However, there's always the unknown of hunting with a "new" partner - never know what sort of habits/quirks they have.
Seen some really "way out" comments about this - bring it back in. Reality ain't straying, but I'm wondering where some folks are "going."
22-rimfire
New member
I would be honored to hunt with Dick Cheney. Especially if I could try out his shotgun!
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