Cheney shoots hunting partner (multiple threads merged)

[loggerhead]

Man this is funny! It was his fault that he got shot. "Protacol would be to announce-hey I'm over here, don't shoot me." Experience quail hunters are all ways aware of the location of the other hunters, the handlers and the dogs. Sort of like the ole boy that told the judge that the man kept running into his knife and stabbed himself 10times.

Rich must not do a lot of quail or other bird hunting to think it happens often.
I would guess that one is less likely to get "peppered" while bird hunting than one would be to getting injured in a car wreck. Dove hunting, shooters frequently get peppered, but with shot falling from the sky and you just hear a little tinkle tinkle tinkle as they fall around you.

There was some question as to the distance, one report said 30 feet the othr said 30 yards. Almost certain to have been 30 yards. At 30 feet a load of bird shot is still closely bunched, have spread very little and will most likely kill a man. At 30 yards the spread is probaly about 2 feet, depending on the choke, but still zipping along at about 800fps and thats enough for a #8 shot to penetrate the skin and into the muscle an inch or so.

Lets all accept the fact that it was Cheneys' careless ness that caused the accident and get on with it.

 

[TheBluesMan]

loggerhead - Please re-read Rich's post. He didn't say it happens often, he said it happens. Big difference.

 

[XavierBreath]

I admit that I am not a quail hunter, in fact I do not hunt any kind of birds, so the rarity of these types of occurances escapes me. I have quite a few friends who do hunt quail and dove. None of them have been shot by hunting partners. It must indeed be difficult to go about hunting birds with a entourage of Secret Service agents, personal physicians/EMTs/nurses and other hangers on as well as your hunting partners. In fact, if you are going to hunt an animal that compels you to swing a shotgun around while shooting with all of those auxillary people tagging along, you might want to reconsider the entire endeavor. A man is still responsible for his muzzle direction, and what is in front and behind his target when he pulls the trigger. All the spin in the world cannot erase that negligence.

I will say this. If I were given the opportunity to go quail hunting with Dick Cheney I would politely decline the invitation.

 

[Wisby]

It really freaked me out the first time I went on a Dove hunt done by Outfitters, $150 bucks for 2 days in there fields, they really pack people in there, I almost didn't go to my spot, you can look in any Direction and see other hunters all around you, very close hunting.

 

[Gary Conner]

It's safer going hunting with Dick Cheney than it is to ride in a car driven by Ted Kennedy.

At least Cheney stayed with the guy and helped him get medical care, instead of walking off and letting him bleed to death in a mesquite thicket.

 

[loggerhead]

I respectfully apologize to Rich and accept the statement that "it happens" as opposed to "it happens often" and accertain that it does not happen often, at all.

 

[Rivers]

Those of you who've never hunted quail don't have a clue about the dynamics of a quail hunt, and your input is spurious.

Friend of mine who's quail hunted for decades almost lost an eye last year, due to a shot's bouncing off a tree and hitting him in the eye. (He was wearing glasses, but the shot came in behind the lens)

I grew up in the middle of an area known to be the best in the world for quail hunting. I try to never hunt with more than one person. With the entourage that Cheny had along, it's easy for somebody who's actually hunted quail to understand how difficult it would have been for Cheney to keep up with a guy who just walked into the line of fire during a covey rise. Rich, and others who've hunted quail understand the dynamics of a covey rise. The rest of you don't have a clue and are driveling like 10-yr-olds!

Last winter a friend wanted me to photograph him and some companions' hunting quail. He was supposed to wait for me to arrive before going into the woods, which were within fifty yards of his house. When I got to his house, the idiot had already left, I suppose expecting me to walk in to the woods, not knowing exactly where he and his companions were. Needless to say, I stayed out of the woods and left pretty pissed off. Where one positions oneself during a quail hunt is one's responsibility, at least equal to the responsibility of the shooter to know where others in his party are.

Key information here: "The dynamics of a covey rise." If you haven't been there, then you REALLY DON'T HAVE A CLUE!

 

[lizziedog1]

What difference does the gauge make? He used a 28 gauge. If he had used a 12 or 20, more pellets might have hit the victim, but that would have been the only difference. There seems to be a misconception around here.

All shotguns shoot any given payload at approximately the same velocity. The distance traveled by the shot is also about the same.

If someone was to fire in your direction with a low base eight shot load, and you were standing one hundred yards away wearing heavy clothes, your damage would be the about same regardless of gauge.

 

[loggerhead]

I have hunted quail for over 50 years, hunted with only my dogs a lot and hunted with groups up to 5 many times. Matter of fact actually raised, trained and sold pointer bird dogs for a few years after I got out of the service.. By that time the quail population had went to almost nothing and I got out of it as quick as I could.
Since that time I have hunted quail, mostly on paid hunts where the quail were "put out" and we came along a couple of hours later, "found" them with dogs, flushed them and shot them. Some times there were only 2 shooters and one dog handler but most times there were 3 shooters. I also have shot quail at some of the premier quail hunting preserves in the south such as River View Plantation in Georgia. The rules are always the same-hunter on the left shoots birds to the left, hunter in the center shoots straight ahead, hunter on the right shoots to the right. Hunter in the middle usually "cheats" a little and stretches his area a little to the right or left as does the out side hunters stretch theirs to the straight ahead.
All of this is pretty basic and exemplifies the fact that to shoot your hunting pardner is nothing less than gross carelessness.:eek:

 

[buckster]

Cheney's not in chains?

Now if a little boy gets arrested for bringing sugar to school and charged with a felony, how much time do you get for shooting a top dog lawyer? They would have us in chains, for attempted murder. Unless it was a typo in the news, The vp was using a 28 gauge? Thank God it was small caliber. Who goes out there with one of those to shoot birds? It might have a very bad move, because he's going to need a good lawyer if Fitzgerald keeps digging up stuff on those bad guys. Wonder why he was cozying up with a lawyer. I think he should lose his gun rights.

 

[Rich Lucibella]

They would have us in chains, for attempted murder.

That's simply absurd.

It might have a very bad move, because he's going to need a good lawyer if Fitzgerald keeps digging up stuff on those bad guys. Wonder why he was cozying up with a lawyer. I think he should lose his gun rights.

I'm having a difficult time receiving your message...my tin foil is reflecting the wavelength!

 

[Lavan]

The quail hunts I've been on were all in HEAVY brush and we all tried to either stay close together or far apart. Quail break like pool balls. Every direction and the shooting is instinctive at best. I'd have to see the area before assigning blame.

I know where we hunted, we'd have to call out every once in a while to see where everybody was.

 

[Houndog]

I've never been on a quayle hunt, but I'm not aware of their being a "quayle hunt" exception to the basic rules of firearm safety. Ultimately the guy pulling the trigger is responsible for where his shot/bullets go. Seems to me that, at best, Cheney is guilty of a ND.

Having said that, it does piss me off that some people will try to use this unfortunate accident for policitical purposes. Whatever you may think of Bush, Cheney, Rusmfeld, Republicans, Tom DeLay, Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh (and I for one don't agree with any of them on most issues) the fact that Cheney made an unfortunate mistake while hunting quayle doesn't make their views on the war in Iraq, social security, taxes, or wiretapping any more or less right.

 

[Harley Quinn]

differences in the gauge's of shotgun

If someone was to fire in your direction with a low base eight shot load, and you were standing one hundred yards away wearing heavy clothes, your damage would be the about same regardless of gauge.


The above statement is correct and incorrect at the same time. IMO.

First he was about 30 yds and hit pretty good with the shot.

If I have a 12 Gauge and it holds 1 1/8 ounce of shot and a 20 Gauge that holds about 7/8 of an ounce, I then have a 28 gauge that holds 5/8 of an ounce.

Magnums hold more but very few people are going to be hunting with magnums while going for quail. Not a hunter anyway.

In number 8s there is approximatly 410 to the ounce, they are .09 in diameter.
True they may be flying at the same speed and the ones that hit may be entering your body and doing damage individualy.
But the amount that is fired from a 12 gauge is almost twice as many. Big difference.

Chokes are important also but most who hunt quail are going for the modified or open, as a rule therefore the patterns are spread a little more.
I believe he is lucky that the VP is a very good hunter and shoots the 28 gauge.

HQ

 

[lizziedog1]

At thirty yards, eight shot is going to hurt, or maybe knock an eye out, but being lethal, I don't think so. I have shot at plywood at thirty or so yards with a shotgun using small bird shot. The pellets were barely in the wood. A finger nail could pluck them out. Even if they could penetrate twice as much flesh, a person would have to be unlucky to die from it.

At very close range, measured in feet, a larger guage would make a difference. At thirty yards, the differences start to diminish.

I also want to comment about how the media keeps refering to the shotgun as a 28 gauge. You and I know that it is a small shotgun diameter. How many people in the general public know this? Most folks have heard of a 12 gauge from movies and TV shows. I wonder how many think that the VP was using some monster size gun? I haven't heard a news story even trying explain exactly what a 28 Gauge is.

 

[Rivers]

I've never known anybody who used a modified choke, on purpose, for hunting quail.

 

[Houndog]

Good point Lizzy. Of course a 28 gauge gun must be at least twice as big and powerful as a 12 gauge, right?

 

[Dave R]

I'm pleased to know the VEEP hunts quail regularly, and uses a 28ga. A real sportsman, unlike Kerry the duck hunter.

OTOH, he blew it bad on this trip. I'tll be entertaining to watch the spin doctors on both sides of the aisle work this one.

As Sean Hannity said, "if you're Dick Cheney, tonight would be a bad night to watch Leno and Letterman."

 

[lizziedog1]

Houndog

Thank God he wasn't using a .410. People would have been imagining an artillary piece being hauled by a jeep. After all, that would be more than 30 times bigger then a 12.

 

[loggerhead]

original by Harley:If someone was to fire in your direction with a low base eight shot load, and you were standing one hundred yards away wearing heavy clothes, your damage would be the about same regardless of gauge.

With a low brass shell (light load) and 100 yards you could be necked and would hardly feel um. They would have to be lobbed. It would take them at least 1/2 second to get there and in 1/2 second (drum roll pleast) they would drop about 15 feet.

by houndoga: 28 gauge gun must be at least twice as big and powerful as a 12 gauge, right?

Man you probaly gonna catch it with this post. Shot gunning 101::: Gauge, in shot guns is, except for the 410, is the number of lead balls, at the diameter of the bore, that it will tale to weigh one pound. So a 28 gauge takes 28 balls and a 12 gauge takes 12 balls: so the 28 gauge is much smaller than a 12 gauge.

I doubt that the fact that one shoots a 28 gauge as opposed to a 20 gauge or larger makes him a better hunter. The sad fact is it was an accidental act of negligence on cheneys part and no line of reasoning can alter that.

by lavan; Quail break like pool balls. Every direction and the shooting is instinctive at best.

I agree that this about what happens when one accidentally walks into a covey. However, on a quail hunt, the dogs point the birds, the hunters know where they are, the birds know where the dogs are, and the hunters will come up from behind the dog and either walk into them or have the dog flush them on comand. In either cast the birds will flush away from where they know the dogs are-the occasional bird that flies back towards the hunters is rare.