Bear Attack: Handgun, Knife, or play dead at Close Range

[8's trigger hits]

As capt Charlie said "what kind of bear?" Most black bears that I have seen don't seem agressive at all. Never run from a black bear. Better to watch your surroundings and not get that close. To answer the thread question though a .480 Ruger. Shoot for a front shoulder to put the bear down, or at least give you a chance to keep distance. A knife???? I don't know how big you are but bears are alot more powerful that you think. One swat from the bear, knife is out of your hand, it's over. Period.

 

[Harley Quinn]

My choice is 9mm 18 rounds in my Glock.

Lots of penetration and lots of bullets.

I think I have mentioned this before.
That is a big bear. But look what is next to him and he has not eaten him yet.

Depends on the bear as to size. And tactic. Play dead and be dead or go down fighting. Put something between you and the bear, keep moving and shooting for the eyes, ears, nose, and mouth.

Fear is what will get you, so fear is what you have to fear. Determined effort to stay alive and the ability to shoot it, again and again, etc. MHO.

HQ

 

[grey_pilgrim]

I'd vote "bear spray" in the poll.

I can take it in national parks w/o having to worry about legal issues.
I don't have enough experience to determine wether the attack is predatory or defensive (I'd assume cubs = defensive).

Easier to aim the stream (even if you only have a few seconds) than to fire a bullet.

 

[ddelange]

(18 shots of 9mm)Lots of penetration and lots of bullets

Sorry, but 9mm would not provide near enough penetration. It's good enough against humans, but it wouldn't go deep enough against a bear. The "lots of bullets" won't help if none of them can penetrate the Bear's thick fur, hide, and bone structure. I can reasonably guess that a plunging, stabbing knife would at least be better than 9mm.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Not true ddelange

ddelange mentioned:
Sorry, but 9mm would not provide near enough penetration. It's good enough against humans, but it wouldn't go deep enough against a bear. The "lots of bullets" won't help if none of them can penetrate the Bear's thick fur, hide, and bone structure. I can reasonably guess that a plunging, stabbing knife would at least be better than 9mm.

HQ mentions.
There was a thread on this forum that showed the 9mm did have the ability
It was posted by 9mmparabellum I believe, very in depth post.

Don't say what you think, show me some real information.

I'll look for the thread:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212516

Check it out and get back to me.

HQ

 

[KimberTLE.45]

Why wouldnt you shoot a bear with a .45? If that was all I had, that bear would be 10 rounds of 230gr. Hydra's heavier. I'd think that would be enough to stop a bear if placed correctly.

 

[MeekAndMild]

Well, since I don't usually carry a 10 foot spear a pistol seems to be the next best thing. Biggest I have is a .44 (looking for a .454).

 

[Harley Quinn]

I think you are missing the point

You are caught unawares and you have to shoot this bear in the face as fast as you can simple.

The 9mm at that distance is a penetrating fool it is easy to get off many shots due to low recoil. All things considered and put into a computer (my brain) I find the 9mm to be the choice under the conditions asked.

I am going into bear country in a week for a week. I will have my 9mm on my hip and another more potent round in a rifle. Am not hunting just visiting. Can't carry the rifle but I can the 9. So same thing here.
I feel very confident that there might be a dead me and a dead bear.

But I am not going to roll up in a ball and lay their while there are a dozen other people along the trail.

Come on think about it. If you are going to die might as well go out fighting.

Your chance to get in some books and others will read about it and not be such candy axxs.

HQ

 

[Ftom14cat]

Thanks for the link harley...interesting read, although it didn't convince me about the 9mm.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Hmmmm

So do you think a steletto is as dangerous as a bowie knife or more dangerous.
All that good stuff on the 9 and you no believe? I like it when the secret is there and no one believes. 9mm german rounds are deadly.

HQ

 

[Ftom14cat]

I dont doubt they are deadly, i would just prefer something deadlier for my bear encounters....something like an m79.

 

[Bic]

little advise

Razorburn
The ole saying comes to mind after reading your comment on overestimating the size and disposition of bears (blacks) don't believe everything you read. The last time I had someone make a simuliar comment about how cute they are, I asked them if they had ever tried to pick up a domestic cat that didn't want to be picked up....something similar to juggling a running chainsaw. These animals are unbelievably quick,powerful and very unpridictable. If you do not believe this, hey your choice. and to further state that these bears arn't going to kill you if you get between them and the cubs, well maybe maybe not, but this young fella isn't going to put himslf in that position intensionally because of a article that someone wrote.
Just my humble opinion.

 

[CobrayCommando]

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184571&page=2

Hog Hunting with .45

#26 Harley Quinn 10-13-2005

“I can bring my Glock 17L 9mm 147 grain.

I will take you up on that hunt Rich when and where? ”



http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185104&page=2&highlight=boar+glock

The Great TFL Pistol Hog Hunt Challenge!


#46 Harley Quinn 10-28-2005

“Ashley had advised me to shoot for the area behind the shoulder, (I was leading it and held on the neck/shoulder area on the first shot, moved forward and let fly into the neck area and the third was into ???)...”

“My days were confined to the 9mm as Rich has stated. I got a couple of good hits (Rich and I believe due to the sound of bullet hitting bone).”

#49 Capt Charlie 10-29-2005

“One thing seems sure though, and that is that it was the gun, and not the hunter, that failed to bring home the bacon . Damned good shootin', thar, Harley! I do have a serious question though. Did the 9's inability to bring down the hog rattle your confidence in that round any, especially as a defensive round?”

#52 Harley Quinn 10-29-2005

“I had numerous bullets to choose from, that day I was loaded up with +p+.”

#69 Long Path 10-31-2005

“Returning to the topic at hand (remember that?), let's take stock in some conclusions:

1. Can a handgun be a good all-around hog-hunting gun?
In my opinion, NO, except for rare exceptions like the most enormous magnums and handguns chambered in rifle rounds. There are simply too many types of shots that present themselves in various forms of hog hunting.

2. Are the .45 acp (remember the original thread?) and/or the 9mm adequate rounds for hog hunting?
(Again in my opinion) NO. While there are shots, with stand hunting over bait or water, in which a hunter might press these inadequate rounds into effective service against hogs, it is a stunt. (I know of one case where a hunter had to press a .25 auto into service to put down a buck that had "woke up" as he transported it back from the hunting field. While it did the job, I would not say that a .25 acp is an effective deer cartridge!) Where shots on moving animals are the norm, penetration and power must make up for some loss of precision.

3. Is there a way to stoke up a 9mm to give the hunter the edge?
Sure. Get a shoehorn and fit a .358 Winchester into a 9X19 chamber. It'll be a tad overbore (.358 in a .355 bore), which might cause some pressure problems...
In all seriousness, I don't think that trying to up the energy is the way to go when pushing minor caliber into a tough animal-- I think penetration is. Thus, rather than a +P+ light bullet, I would either go with the heaviest bullet available for the higher sectional density, or go to FMJ. Or both! In golf there's a turn of phrase that goes "never up, never in." The concept is, the most perfectly placed shot does no good if it doesn't have the punch to make the vitals.”



http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195710&highlight=boar

Wild Boar Hunting?

#8 Harley Quinn 01-17-2006

“If you want to do yourself a favor and bring home some pork use a rifle.
A good 30-30 or 35 cal will do it if not over 100 yds. If further get a bigger one as in 308 or 30-06.”




http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192678&highlight=boar

Pig killer? What caliber?

#10 Harley Quinn 12-27-2005

“I'd stick with the 44 mag or equal. I have used a 9mm and felt fine but it certainly is not the caliber of choice if you don't have another weapon as your primary.”

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213921&page=2


#54 Harley Quinn 10-30-2005

“When I got back my wife had found a good web site about the Tejon ranch in CA and the amount of hogs taken there each year. I think I will give it ago, soon... DIFFERENT GUN OF COURSE for primary, my pistola will be a 44 mag Blackhawk”

Then this:

Bear Attack: Handgun, Knife, or play dead at Close Range

#48 Harley Quinn 06-26-2006

“The 9mm at that distance is a penetrating fool it is easy to get off many shots due to low recoil. All things considered and put into a computer (my brain) I find the 9mm to be the choice under the conditions asked.”

Harley, this is not a flame. However I question your logic that a 9mm with +P+ is inadequate for small end boar, yet good enough for bear. Cartridges as powerful if not more so were used by you in attempt to kill a boar. They bounced off of it.

I'm genuinely worried about your safety man, I highly recommend springing for a .44 or higher and practicing with it, if you're serious about self defense. Reliably downing a bear by hitting it in the joints is like hitting tennis balls stuck to a dune buggy going 40 MPH, bouncing up and down.

If your going to go with the swarm of bees concept, either use a shotgun and aim for the head, removing its eyes, or use a MAC 11 for the eyes or something... Not a semi-automatic pistol.

Best of luck in all your bear encounters

Edited because: I mistakenly thought you advocated softpoints. However that doesn't change my point.

 

[razorburn]

bic, what you wrote is also just written on the internet, and by a person with poorer credentials than the author of the bear.org website. These bears here are kept on university property, and we see and deal with them more regularly.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet, but when you must choose to believe one or the other, I'm going to choose to believe the one who is more likely to know what they're talking about. Authors of articles on a bear website is more likely to know the subject of bears better than some random guy on a gun discussion board. In the same way that a gun website like this is going to have more reliable info on guns than say, a housecat guy on a cat discussion board.

Of course, given a choice, I'm going to avoid bears altogether unless I'm out looking to hunt or eat one.

 

[Harley Quinn]

Cobray taken out of context you can develop

Any kind of story.

The nine was used on the boar hunt and the conditions were not as like the bear in your face.

I still go with the conditions as the original poster was asking, in my face and close, like spittle on you.

To clairfy I would still go with the nine as a back up. The 44 is far to slow for this situation. Others I would use what I explained.

Cobray the fact that you have done this, does lead me to believe you are looking for trouble.
Bouncing off of it, I don't think so. Sad what you have done. To bad. Last but not least that particular boar was big and running and a lot further than in your face.

HQ

 

[CobrayCommando]

Why do you assume spittle conditions? The poster asked about a charging bear. Look, if you can hit tennis balls and a dinner plate (head) on a dune buggy bouncing up and down, running at you at 40mph, thats fine. Use the 9mm.

However, you can't.

The simple fact about the boar was that your precious 9mm (whose virtues you extoll at every opportunity while deriding most other choices as "too slow", whatever the hell that means") failed miserably. A +P+ out of a long barreled gun BOUNCED off of the damn thing Harley! Get a clue, a semi-auto 9mm is not ideal or even acceptable (even when limited to handguns) for any range against bears unless you are Jerry Miculek. He could do what you're saying with a revolver. But you sure aren't Jerry Miculek, you have proven yourself to be an exceptional shot Harley, but you're not that good.

 

[Harley Quinn]

I guess I just figured spittle conditions

Because he wants to use a knife. I'll take the 9 under that particular condition.

HQ

 

[ddelange]

HQ and the 9mm Fantasy vs Bears

HQ mentions.
There was a thread on this forum that showed the 9mm did have the ability
It was posted by 9mmparabellum I believe, very in depth post.

I read the entire thread, and everyone who knew anything about bear attacks or hunting debunked the idea that 9mm 100gr bullets would be successful as a last resort against a Bear attack. Relying on 9mm vs a Bear is so laughable it's not even worthy of a lengthy response (but I'll give it one anyway).

1. Avoid Bear territory
2. Carry a long gun: at least a SG, or large caliber rifle
3. Carry Bear Spray
4. If the Bear is within striking range (which is what this thread is about): either play dead and protect your head with your hands, use the largest caliber handgun with hard cast bullets of extreme weight (for me: .44 Mag 300gr)

HQ, you said you wanted to show me some real information. . . . here's an excerpt from someone who is an expert at hunting bear with rifle or handgun:

defensive shooting of bears with the revolver

by Randy Garrett

Single-action vs Double-action

I like both single-action and double-action revolvers for hunting, however when carried for self-defense from bear attack, there is a pretty strong consensus that the double-action revolver is the better choice. Since bear attacks invariably occur with incredible speed, there is a very considerable possibility that the attacking bear will reach the shooter before he has had an opportunity to effectively deploy his sidearm. If that does occur, it is generally believed that a double-action revolver offers the shooter a better chance of prevailing since it can be fired by simply pulling the trigger. The necessity of thumbing the hammer on a single-action revolver presents a substantial mechanical obstacle when the shooter is placed in such demanding circumstances, as the throttling provided by a bear attack is vigorous in the extreme.

Caliber selection

Since the only completely reliable shot placement against an attacking bear is one that destroys essential parts of the central nervous system, it could be argued that any caliber/load combination capable of shooting through the skull of a big bruin is a reasonable choice. However, the larger the caliber the greater the potential for disabling an attacking bear with a less than perfect shot. Therefore, the best choice is likely to be the biggest caliber the shooter can handle in a desperate struggle where all shooting will be done one-handed. In my opinion, this would include calibers as small as the 41 Magnum, assuming proper bullet selection.

Bullet selection

Where defense against bear attack is concerned, the best bullets for the large caliber handgun are clearly proper hard-cast bullets. Expanding bullets are far too likely to fracture when impacted into the tough bone of a bear’s skull. This should be rather obvious as any bullet designed to expand against the light resistance of a deer’s rib cage cannot be depended upon for major bone busting on a big bear. When selecting a hard-cast bullet for such applications, one should be careful to choose an extremely heavy bullet with a broad frontal flat (meplat). It is also important that the casting possess substantial inherent strength, with a hardness rating of at least 19-Brinnell. The importance of selecting a heavy bullet is twofold. First, heavier bullets penetrate deeper than lighter bullets. Second, since heavier bullets cannot be driven as fast as lighter bullets, they experience less impact stress and are therefore less likely to fracture upon impact. This is very important, as the amount of stress experienced by a bullet upon impact is the result of the speed of impact and the toughness of the target. When the target is close and extremely tough, reliable performance is always best achieved by increasing bullet weight and decreasing velocity. The importance of selecting a bullet with a broad meplat is also critical, as broad meplated bullets tend to penetrate deeper than small meplated bullets. It has become obvious to me through the years that although logic would seem to suggest that heavy bullets with small meplats should penetrate deeper than blunter bullets of the same weight and velocity, they usually don’t. This is quite interesting, as it would seem that the bullet with the smaller meplat would offer less resistance to penetration and therefore should penetrate better than the blunter bullet. However, nearly three decades of penetration testing with the 44 Magnum has established beyond any doubt that the blunter designs penetrate the best. The truncated cone is an excellent example of this. Although possessing meplats in the .210-inch to .230-inch range, truncated cones do not penetrate as deeply as semi-wadcutters of the same weight and impact velocity, and yet the semi-wadcutters I have tested possess meplat diameters of about .285-inch. Later testing revealed that penetration would continue to increase as the meplats increased in diameter up to about .320-inch. However, my penetration testing demonstrated that meplat diameters significantly greater than .320-inch, in 44 caliber, did not increase penetration depth, but instead led to decreased penetration depth. It is always easier to observe than explain, however it is my opinion that the reason for this pertains to the disparity in weight distribution of small meplated bullets. Simply stated, when the back half of the bullet carries significantly more weight than the front half, the back half tends to over-take the front half upon impact. In other words, the bullet tends to go sideways since the back half carries more weight and has more inertia. As the weight disparity between the two ends of the bullet is reduced, as in blunter designs, there is clearly less of a tendency for the back half to over-take the front half, and the bullet takes a straighter and deeper path. However, once this weight disparity has been corrected, any further increases in meplat diameter tend to decrease penetration depth as terminal stability can no longer be improved.

Final thoughts

It should be clearly understood that although a properly loaded large caliber handgun can be successfully deployed against an attacking bear, it certainly is not the gun of choice. It is best regarded as the gun of last resort. In my opinion, the short barreled lever-action carbine firing heavy bullets at modest speed reins supreme for the specific task of stopping a determined bruin. Also, as with the handgun, the lever-action carbine should be chambered in the largest caliber the shooter can handle. For most shooters this is probably the 45-70 with blunt hard-cast bullets of extreme weight.

Finally, I carry a 9mm for defense against human attackers. . . . if a Bear was almost on me and I had a 9mm. . . . I'd probably toss it aside and take my chances at wrestling the Bear.

 

[Bic]

Razorburn
Honestly, I don't have to read the internet to get information on black bears, living in Northern Ontario. Further there's really no need to get your hair up, like I said I'm just stating my opinion, take it or leave it for what its worth. I would just hate to see anyone think that they would be alright getting between a sow and her cubs, due to something that they read on some.... gun site,... cat site, ....or bear site.

 

[chadwick76]

Who takes a knife to a "bear fight"?