Are there any non MIM 1911s made anymore?

[mete]

Some one missing a point ? MIM -metalpowder is mixed with a polymer [wax], -injection molded , sintered to remove polymer and bond metal powders ! That last step involves considerable shrinkage which must be considered .Maybe the anti-plastic types should meltoff their plastic frames !

 

[briandg]

Yes, it does. All metalwork that involves heat variations during either fabrication or use has to be carefully planned and designed.

Sintered metal has shrinkage, and the designers have to create the unfinished parts in a form that shrinks to fit.

I worked with a man for a while who had a private aluminum foundry, and he tried to teach me about the work. Another friend once worked as a model maker for a steel foundry, and we talked about the issues involved with making molds that allowed for shrinkage.

I have to say that I never imagined the difficulty of setting up a casting as difficult as an engine block, blueprints all of the shrinkage and expansion ratios. Good Lord, it's a good thing that I'm not the smartest guy in the world.

 

[BoogieMan]

I guess the MIM argument will go on forever. I am a machinist and designer with a long history in metal and plastic parts. A properly designed MIM part is many times superior to a machined billed part. Grain structure and carbon distribution is better controlled by the process. It's all about cost to manufacture versus quantity manufactured. A small manufacturer can't afford the huge costs of molds and part design to make the MIM parts. Once the setup is done MIM is much cheaper than billet. If you make 200,000 pieces then you can divide that upfront cost over the 200,000 pcs. If your making 2000 pcs the cost of the MIM part is much higher than. The cost of the setup and run of billet parts. You may be surprised to find MIM parts in some very high end 1911 like Wilson. They are buying in parts from companies like Kimber in order to meet the production needs.

 

[KyJim]

You may be surprised to find MIM parts in some very high end 1911 like Wilson. They are buying in parts from companies like Kimber in order to meet the production needs.

According to Wilson, they haven't used MIM for awhile now. Who knows how much of that is marketing. See my previous post on this at http://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6269655&postcount=19

 

[WVsig]

Wilson sells Value line sears and hammers which are MIM. I do not believe they are using them in their production pistols anymore but they did use them at one point.

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Sear-Value-Line/productinfo/314C/

http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Hammer-Value-Line-Blue/productinfo/455B/

This is an interesting read.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...hat-wilson-combat-thinks-mim-parts-1911s.html

Frank Robbins Wilson Combat

One other thing I forgot to address. MIM parts. A company that I will not name gave the MIM parts a bad name because they had a bad batch of MIM parts. This was many years ago. Since then remarkable things have happened.

MIM parts are extremely dense and very exact. They are much less prone to wear and breakage than a factory Colt, Spfg. etc. part. This is why we use them in our CQB's, etc. Although not quite as hard as our tool steel parts, they will last a very long time. This is why we can still quarante our total gun, including the MIM parts, for life.

The tool steel parts are actually overkill. The MIM parts last for life (I know of one gun that has over 100,000 rounds thru it and the trigger pull feels the same as it did when new) therefore I guess you could say the tool steel parts lasts for a lifetime and ½.

We use the tool steel parts in our full custom guns. (These are the ones that cost from $2800.00 up) Our full custom guns, Stealth, Tactical Elite, Super Grade and Tactical Super Grade, are not for everyone because of price. They are intended for someone that can afford the very best we can do.

They [tool steel] actually won't last any longer, shoot any straighter or be more dependable than our CQB's, Protectors and Classics, but we spend many extra hours in fitting and prepping them for a perfect cosmetic handgun as well as a great shooter. And because of this, we use the tool steel parts that take longer to fit.

Again, all of us guys here, including Bill Wilson use the very same MIM parts in our guns. And we shoot a bunch! Once installed and fit, no one can tell the difference in the feel of the trigger pull with either type of parts.

Ok, I'm done with my book. Hope this helps too. Just didn't want you all to believe everything you read from self appointed experts.

Frank Robbins Wilson Combat"

When MIM is properly specd and properly deployed in proper applications MIM works. I will say it again that the problem is when a company like Kimber or Sig cut corners to meet a price point. The issue is not the process of MIM it is putting out an RFP and accepting the lowest bid that meets the minimum qualifications and then not doing independent QC and testing of contracted parts that causes failures in the end product not the MIM process. MIM can be as good or as crappy as you want it to be just like forging or tooled steel IMHO

When you start a race to the bottom, in terms of price, you get what I call the Pinto Principle. You build something that works "most" of the time for "most" of the people but that you know will fail for a certain percentage. You build the "warranty work" costs and "liability" costs into the cost of the final product and deal with the failures one at a time knowing that most people will never shoot their gun to the point of failure. A company who works on a large volume model do this all the time. The gun industry is no different because if they calculate the numbers correctly they will come out ahead.

When the uses of MIM is driven by driving down cost quality too often suffers if the proper QC is not in place. This is exactly what happened with Kimber and Sig with their early use of MIM. It has rightful put fear into the gun buying public but the fear should be directed towards the mindset used to develop and deploy MIM not the process itself.

Companies like Wilson, Colt and others have used or use high quality MIM and do not have problems. Honestly Sig these days is much better than they used to be in terms of MIM. IMHO they learned their lesson the hard way.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I remember reading in American Rifleman back issues when I worked there all of the angst and sturm und drang about *GASP!!!* stamped parts when those started to become really common in the years following World War II.

Seems like every other issue had some sort of reference that boiled down to either "stamped parts are the future!!!" or "If this 1/4 ounce part hasn't been milled from a 4-ton billet of steel it's &^%()&*#*()&^!"

Seems like history is still repeating itself with MIM...

God, could you imagine the hue and cry if they actually had parts stamped from blocks of MIM stock?

Heads would go all 'splody!

 

[briandg]

You just made me laugh.

I wish I could remember who it was twenty plus years ago who visited the helm factory to look at the treasury. He wore a cowboy hat and a bold tie and he was older than I am. Tom turning, maybe.

He hated the dark wood and oil finish. He found some chips in the cheering. He had a few other unpleasant thoughts. "I like my shootin irons to be as perfect as the can be."

He ignored the fact that those rifles weren't safe queens, vips checked them out. They were GERMAN for God's sake. If he didn't like the color of the bastogne, he needed to go home and look at weatherbys.

 

[abraxian]

mim part

You can always buy what you want and replace the mim parts with tool steel parts for a small investment. I bought a new Ruger sr 1911 cmd and replace the slide stop, disconnector, sear and hammer. I am not a gunsmith and it was easy following instructions on YouTube.