Are there any non MIM 1911s made anymore?

[Walt Sherrill]

Now, whether MIM makes a difference is a different topic and WVSig pretty much hit the nail on the head. However, most folks who are spending $2,500+ for a 1911 pistol want the the manufacturer to go the extra mile and use non-MIM parts. Wilson Combat once used a few MIM parts but now do not and even charges extra for their 100% "Bullet Proof" parts pistols (the "Elite" variation in several of their models).

"...want the manuacturer to go the extra mile and use non-MIM parts."

One of these days, going that extra mile may require the use of MIM parts.

According to some folks, once they really learned how to make MIM parats right, the biggest reason to continue wasn't just because it was cheaper, but because it let them make better parts with less chance of human screw-ups. (THAT was cheaper, however.) But, you've got to have high volumes to justify creating MIM parts... it apparently isn't cheap to build a new part from scratch.

Technology changes faster that public opinion. Browning went to cast frames with their BHPs some years back. Ruger supplies investment cast parts for many industries, including the firearms industry and aerospace. S&W swears by MIM parts in many of their best revolvers (including using MIM in hammers), etc. etc. Mim is used in jet engines, which require better and more durable components than any firearm...

Times change, values change, and some people learn that the old ways have been improved upon.

 

[mete]

BTW for those who talk about bullet proof "tool steel parts " . The finest tool steel today starts out with metal powder ! Usually referred to as 'powder metal' steels such as Crucibles, Crucible Particle Metallurgy , as in my favorite
knife steels CPM S35VN and CPM 3V !!

 

[briandg]

Something I noticed over the past few decades is that we older dudes are spoiled. We also tend to believe that the old way of doing things, no matter what, is the best way to do it, even though using the old tried and true method is really a stupid way operate, that it wastes resources.

Take a genuinely low stress part like a hammer, a magazine follower, even a front sight. In the past, these things were forged and/or machined, sometimes even hand fitted, and there's no reason in the world that many of the parts in a handgun have to be over built. A hammer can be manufactured at a fraction of the cost with modern technology. There would be no practical difference.

It's been pretty well proven that polymers can replace metal parts in millions of applications, even thousand dollar cameras.

Not starting a war about polymer. It's just a fact that two centuries ago, we didn't even have interchangeable parts, and that squirting out parts by the millions would have been a dream come true for anyone of that age.

Something to think about is machine tools. I have two separate machine tools that perform the same function. One was milled from solid carbide bar stock. The other has sintered tungsten inserts brazed onto steel.. a glock, similarly, has steel inserts in polymer base. A fraction of the cost of forged and machined steel, and for most purposes, up to the task of being a gun

 

[Jagrbomb]

As other's stated - Dan Wesson does not. I have owned ten 1911s over the years - including a $3k Custom Shop Springer and two Ed Browns. It may sound strange, but my Dan Wesson stainless Valor is my favorite 1911 I have ever owned

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

The finest tool steel today starts out with metal powder !

A little bit disingenuous to conflate how tool steel is made from powder with MIM parts. The processes are not even close to each other.

The molten tool steel is sprayed under high pressure through a nozzle so that the steel forms spherical droplets or "micro ingots." This is done because the droplets cool faster suppressing segregation of carbon (carbides) which form a coarse granular network in regular cast ingots.

The powder formed in the bottom of the atomization tower is screened for size and then put into containers that are evacuated and sealed. The containers are hot pressed at high temperatures approximating forging temperatures to form a "compact." The benefit of this process is that the compact has a homogenous carbide microstructure.

At that point, the compact goes into a mill like a standard steel ingot for further processing into final steel forms (bars, rounds, etc.).

There is no mold, there is no binder, there are no parts being made by casting of a liquid comprised of powdered metal + a binder.

MIM is a powdered metal alloy plus a plastic binder that is injected into a mold to make a green part - and then the further processing where the green part is sintered, etc.

Sorry, you can't just lump every process that has the words "powder" and "metal" as being equal and the same because they're not.

Nice try...

Oh, yeah...lol and super big smiley face...

 

[laytonj1]

No MIM in CZ owned Dan Wessons or in any current Les Baers, Ed Browns, Wilson Combats or the new Ithaca 1911.

So what's the big deal about MIM? It's meant to reduce cost. Therefore I expect to see it in less expensive guns and I'm ok with that but, not in expensive guns. For the price you pay for them there should not be any in them.

Jim

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

ARE THERE ANY NON MIM 1911s MADE ANYMORE ?

Guncrafter, STI, Wilson, Les Baer, Nighthawk, Republic Forge, Ed Brown, SVI to name a few.

Something I noticed over the past few decades is that we older dudes are spoiled. We also tend to believe that the old way of doing things, no matter what, is the best way to do it, even though using the old tried and true method is really a stupid way operate, that it wastes resources.

Exactly - WHEN does one fall into this alleged category of "old dude," where you, apparently, become instantly stupid and unable to learn anything about new processes or technologies?

Oh, and what "resources" are being wasted with the "old tried and true method"? What exactly is the "old tried and true method"?

If it's machining parts out of bar stock - nothing is "wasted." The chips from cutting parts are collected and sent to scrap for processing into more steel. Same with all of the other metals.

The "ole timers" are probably complaining about those part lines,they are easiest to see on the hammers,sometimes running straight down the middle,others on the side.But once you notice them they get sharper and clearer every time you look and and become almost unbearable to even touch
so they take their grief to the range and they bitterly express their sorrow and frustration.

Hmmm...sounds like you have a stereotype in mind and are projecting it wholesale onto an entire age group.

Just for my edification - how old is an "ole timer"? Is that an exact age group or a state-of-mind?

I'm just wondering because I run into a lot of 20-30 year olds who know everything about any subject - and aren't afraid to demonstrate just how smart they think they are.

The funny thing is - the older I get what I find is important is what you DON'T KNOW, and I'm working diligently to fill in the gaps...

 

[osbornk]

Everything I have has some MIM parts and I have never had a problem due to the parts with any of them. As a politician said "AT THIS POINT, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE?"

 

[mete]

Buckhorn ,I am confused by the term "powder metal" .It started with the process used by Remington to make parts for the gun and other industries.
Compress metal powder in a die , and sinter. It can be adjusted for different densities for filters to very close to wrought material .The highest density type was Remingtons specialty. Was there , saw that !
Today's powder metal comes in more than one form Crucible ,Sandvik [HIP] etc. MIM is actually a sort of second generation of the original one.
Greed, letting Bean Counters design, and generally poor controls as in China,make for the failures .
The gun business has apparently learned and failures are now few. Buy Quality not price.

 

[shaunpain]

I suggest you pay those old timers no mind. MIM parts have a place in the world because of their exacting specifications and little to no machining, therefore saving time and money. While the equipment to MIM is extremely expensive, large scale production runs will benefit from the process. Another poster seems to have much deeper knowledge than me about the MIM and forging processes, but I will interject that if the forged parts I have purchased in my lifetime for 1911s were made from powdered metal, I want my money back! Typical high end 1911 houses will throw forged parts (molten steel that is shaped and hammered into shape) or machined parts off of a billet that was also formed from molten steel into cast or forged frames and slides. I am not a fan of cast parts, but I have cast framed 1911s that work just fine. If you really want to invest in a nice 1911, accept no substitutes and buy only forged and machined billet guns. If it doesn't matter that much to you, those cast and MIM guns are great and will last a lifetime just the same.

 

[peggysue]

Lets see how much of that steel used in firearms nowdays is recycled? Just think you treasured 1911 may have started out life as a Yugo GV Sport.

 

[A pause for the COZ]

Personally, I have no issues with mim parts as long as they are from a reliable manufacturer.
Its allowed Ruger to keep costs down were they can release some very fine revolvers at price points the average human can buy.

Of my 5 Smith and Wesson revolvers. My Model 64 with mim trigger and hammer actually has the smoothest trigger of all of them.
All my Smiths have nice triggers, but every time any one fires the 64 the first word out is. ewww thats nice...

So no complaints from me.

 

[polyphemus]

Just for my edification - how old is an "ole timer"? Is that an exact age group or a state-of-mind?

That is a question you should be asking the OP he is the one who brought up the concept,if you read his post you will then see that the "ole timers " complain to him at the range about MIM parts.
I was simply trying to guess why they do that,I don't know who or how old they are only he knows.

 

[g.willikers]

If it ain't made by a guy like my Grandpappy, with an open flame furnace and bellows, an anvil, hammer, and quenching bucket, it just ain't right.

 

[agtman]

If it ain't made by a guy like my Grandpappy, with an open flame furnace and bellows, an anvil, hammer, and quenching bucket, it just ain't right.

The generation of old-school gunsmiths who knew how to make all-steel 1911s run like a sewing machine are long dead. These were the guys who either built the WW2 1911A1s or who were trained "hands-on" by those who did. Back then, everything was attention to detail. Craftsmanship, technique, and all the little "tricks" of the 'smithing trade (how to file and handfit certain parts) were passed down to the next set of 'smiths coming up the ladder.

Not so today. MIM parts are a manufacturing short-cut intended to eliminate or reduce the cost and time involved in hand-fitting metal parts the way the old-school 'smiths did.

Hence, 1911-makers no longer employ "gunsmiths," but rather young factory rats who haven't a cumulative clue about how to de-bug a 1911 and make it run smooth, because, as they'll admit, that's what the company's return-warranty is for - i.e., if it doesn't run right out of the box, it'll be someone else's problem coming back.

Frankly, today's young factory rat working the line at, say, MIMber, is more concerned with eyeballing his social media device and the "like" he just got on Facebook from some tool in Nebraska, than assuring Q.C. in the $1500 build going out the door to your LGS.

 

[P71pilot]

I know I prefer forged steel over cast or MIM. I also prefer carbon steel for my knife blades.

I had an H&K knife made by benchmade. It was called the soldat, and had a thick polymer handle with a neat tanto blade design and thumb hole for openening. It was made in the USA so I trusted it. Well one day I decided to stick it into a block of wood to simulate stabbing something, and whilst removing it, I gave it a tug sideways just too hard and the blade tip snapped off. The exposed bare steel had a granular structure Like tiny little balls. To me this type of steel or alloy is junk.

I have a another more expensive HK folding knife that I carry now that was double price and I like it alot better. I think it is the fugitive model or something like that
Made by benchmade made in USA

As for MIM parts, I am okay with them as long as they don't break or fail or deform considerably under normal use. Now it I were to drop my 1911 say out of 2nd story window onto concrete, and the safety switch or hmer was broken, or even the beavertail, I would be angry. I have thought about slowly replacing parts in my Springfield with higher quality parts, but I am going to just collect these parts and fit and install them when the original ones wear out. So far I just have an extractor. Besides a trigger i already fit and installed. I still would like to get an ejector, righty only safety, hammer, beavertail, and sear

 

[Tucker 1371]

I really don't see a huge problem with MIM parts so long as the company making them has a reputation for doing the process right. Colt has a pretty good track record with their MIM sears and disconnectors, not so much their extractors and they have since replaced those with barstock ones. Those are the only two major parts I know of that are MIM on a Colt 1911.

Kimber's first try at MIM did not go well at all but I haven't heard of any slide stops or hammers breaking recently so I suppose they've figured out how to do it right.

MIM can be just as strong as any other metalworking process so long as it's done right, it all depends on the company in question and their attention to detail, quality control practices, and experience in using the MIM process.

 

[KyJim]

Guncrafter, STI, Wilson, Les Baer, Nighthawk, Republic Forge, Ed Brown, SVI to name a few.

buckhorn_cortez -- Thanks for this partial list. I did not know STI was no longer using MIM parts. They were, at one time, the company held up as an example that MIM parts can go into a quality 1911. I wonder if they changed for quality issues, marketing or some other reason.

I has also never heard of Republic Forge. Their pistols look nice on their website.

 

[briandg]

Gat man, that is what I refer to as wasted resources. A $50 technician whose job is to debug problems isn't needed on the floor where parts are assembled. The money saved by using precision manufacturing process will be put to better uses, such as minimising costs, and keeping a company on a solid financial setting.

I read a gunsmithing book by James Howe. He gave instructions for making checkering tools. Making your own cheering tools at the cost of an hour or two is a waste of resources. Buy them, apply your labors making fine guns.

 

[saleen322]

MIM allows harder alloy to be used with better wear characteristics because the raw part requires little if any machining. MIM is here to stay just like I don't see us going back to breaker points in cars because some electronic ignition modules sometimes fail.