Are the snubies being underated?

[Moenie]

I've been shooting semi's and wheel guns for over 50 years now, and have NEVER had a wheel gun malfunction. Semi auto's...so many have malfunctioned that I can't recall them all.

Same here.

Everybody says "revolvers also jam". In over 40 years of shooting I've never ever had a revolver jam on me. Not once. Semis, literally hundreds of times. A couple of times so bad that I required tools to clear the jam.

I have also never seen anybody outside a competition shoot clear a jam "in seconds". The average shooter normally spends a number of seconds squeezing the bejeezus out of the trigger not aware why his gun is not firing. When he does finally realize something is not quite right, another couple of seconds is spent looking at the gun with the "deer in the headlights" look on their face.

I cannot recall how many times I had been asked to clear somebody's jam when I worked as a range officer.

The very vast majority of gun owners will not manage to clear even the most simple jam under stress - most struggle to clear them on the range.

 

[TunnelRat]

Same here.

Everybody says "revolvers also jam". In over 40 years of shooting I've never ever had a revolver jam on me. Not once. Semis, literally hundreds of times. A couple of times so bad that I required tools to clear the jam.

I have also never seen anybody outside a competition shoot clear a jam "in seconds". The average shooter normally spends a number of seconds squeezing the bejeezus out of the trigger not aware why his gun is not firing. When he does finally realize something is not quite right, another couple of seconds is spent looking at the gun with the "deer in the headlights" look on their face.

I cannot recall how many times I had been asked to clear somebody's jam when I worked as a range officer.

The very vast majority of gun owners will not manage to clear even the most simple jam under stress - most struggle to clear them on the range.

I think there’s some validity to this, though as someone that has fired over a hundred thousand rounds with the great majority of that through pistols I haven’t had hundreds of malfunctions. I don’t think I’ve even had dozens. When I did have semiautomatics that jammed repeatedly I sent them back to the factory because they needed repair.

However, if we are to use as a barometer the average gun owner that shoots very infrequently and is not very familiar with the function of his firearm, you are probably right that such a gun owner can’t clear a malfunction. I also then question how well that gun owner is going to shoot a j frame or an LCR. A heavy double action pull with a very short side radius (normally just a trough and a front sight) in a lighter weight firearm. Sure it might not jam. Is the shooter going to hit anything?

I’ve seen very good revolver shooters. I’ve also seen people that are terrible. If someone can put in the effort to be a good shot with a revolver, than he can take the time to learn to do a tap/rack. I taught my wife how to do it in a few minutes.

This is an inherent problem when we start talking about what the “average gun owner” can or can’t do. If the argument is the average gun owner lacks competence then that shortage of competence isn’t restricted to one specific area.


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[Carmady]

"Look at the picture of my first post comparing the thickness. You can shave off the butt of the snuby and make it even more concealable as shown."

In your pic (below) there's a roll pin (unseen) in the bottom of the grip frame which prevents the grips from pivoting. If you remove the grips you'll see see it.

 

[zeke]

Started out carrying a snubbie, and it still can suit certain roles. However for the smaller carry role prefer a 45 acp xds. Only 6 rounds, but 6 rounds of 45 acp. It is heavier, but pocket-able in my carharts. Much easier for me to hit with out to 25 yards. Certainly snubbies are mechanically accurate, but may take more practice.

 

[Alan0354]

Alan, I'm not knocking the snubbies. I really do like them and enjoy owning a few. Furthermore, there is no denying that even today a great many are still being produced, carried and used successfully for self defense.

I have to disagree about the reliability of the smaller semiautos though. I've had revolvers fail me. I've had a transfer bar break on a Ruger single action and they are legendary for their toughness and reliability. I've had the cylinder rod unscrew itself causing the cylinder to be stuck closed until I could figure out what was wrong on a Model 10. I've also had unburnt powder get stuck under the cylinder star which also caused a malfunction on a Model 37. Each of these would be impossible to fix in a gunfight.

I've never had, or seen a semiauto have a failure that couldn't be fixed with a tap and rack or a magazine change and I've seen alot of shooting being a LE instructor. Of course those were full sized handguns, but I've never had any issues with the smaller ones either.

Furthermore, when dealing with small concealed carry handguns such as a Smith and Wesson snub or a Smith and Wesson Shield, I find the capacity difference between 5 rounds and 8+1 to be more critical than say 15 to 18.

Just my thoughts. No hate here for the snubbies. They're still great but have limitations.

No worries, I never say I am into snubies, I posted the thread because after I brought the Glock home, and think of buying another smaller polymer. then I took out the snuby and stop and think. That's why I posted the thread.

We just present the good and bad, just talking out loud. Whatever idea is welcome, we are just talking.

I am not even saying I am not going to buy a smaller polymer, just weighing everything................And wanting to buy another new toy is attractive also.

 

[CDW4ME]

How many "stops" have been made with one shot compared to twelve shots? Citing one extreme case does not prove anything.

Not that I am trying to influence you, but; IME, posting a couple more similar examples is not going to. Additional examples would be rationalized as inapplicable for whatever reason.

 

[CDW4ME]

Then you have the mouse gun for hot weather where you wear shorts and T shirt.

No.

I live in FL, shorts & shirt is typical attire; No problem carrying / concealing a Glock 23 + spare mag everyday, everywhere (including 2 mile walk the dogs and 5 mile casual bicycle rides).

 

[CDW4ME]

*Roll eyes*

Works both ways.

 

[SIGSHR]

Anything can fail, my 4" S&W M-19 locked up me 40 years ago, needed a gunsmith's attention, my Colt Mark IV locked up on me,had to disassemble down to the bare frame to clean out built up residue in the trigger bar channel. Semiautos, especially of the JMB and Dieudonne Saive's, are much easier to field strip for cleaning. One caution in pocket carry is that is that the handgun can pick up lint, threads, etc. Getting into the habit of giving a carry handgun a quick going over before and after is a good habit.

 

[Carl the Floor Walker]

I’m not talking about big ones either. A P365 isn’t big. I’ve had a Shield go a thousand rounds without a malfunction. It didn’t just spontaneously malfunction. My P365XL has 1200 rounds through it and ejects like a sewing machine (better than some larger pistols I’ve owned)

The grip on the P365 is notably thinner than a Glock. Shaving the rubber on the LCR grip is possible, though would look like hell. The reason the grip has that width on an LCR is to give your hand some cushion as you’re still shooting a centerfire cartridge in a small and light handgun (lighter than a number of semi autos, as you pointed out). Take that cushion away and yes you’ve made the pistol more concealable, but you’ve also made it harder to shoot and it’s already harder to shoot than a number of the smaller semiautomatics, at least in my experience. It’s a trade off.


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I shoot the small guns almost exclusively. Small 380's, Micro 9mm's and my two stubbies the 642 and the LCR9mm. I also train and practice with a LCR22 and LCP22. (along with a few others. And have been for over a decade.
If we are talking about the average Joe or Sally then yes the snubbie and the small guns have a longer learning curve, but once learned a owner can become very proficient, much more than the internet will lead you to believe.

As far as recoil, I do not find them in 38 or 9mm to be anything but easy to shoot. And recoil a very NON issue. Yes, at first, but as time goes on recoil is not even noticed.
I have a size large hand and wear a Extra Large glove. And yet I prefer the smaller grips. Especially on the snubbies. I love shooting the snubbie and especially the LCR9mm. I load up 50 moon clips the night before for a typical range session. Again recoil is no issue and I could easily go on all day long.
My favorite 22cal is the LCR22. My gosh, I have shot that gun so often it feels like a part of my hand and love shooting fast action at the range. And again Shoot it often and you will surprise yourself at how well they can perform.

If the Gun Gods came down and told me that the only gun I could own would be a 5 shot snubbie, it would not bother me one bit.And on thing I learned along the way is that if you can shoot a snubbie with proficiency you can shoot any gun well. In fact, after my son learned the basics with many firearms, I bought him a LCR22 and said "Shoot the snot out of it, it will make you a fantastic shooter. (which he now is)
May God bless the Snubbie!
PS And these guns can be very fast to the draw. It is about the shooter not the gun.

Kahr P380 and LCP22
LCR9mm and LCR22

Prefer the smaller grips like the Bantam grip on the LCR. Went through a lot of grips for that gun, but read a review where he said they would surprise you with the great feel. Bought some and never looked back.

 

[TunnelRat]

I shoot the small guns almost exclusively. Small 380's, Micro 9mm's and my two stubbies the 642 and the LCR9mm. I also train and practice with a LCR22 and LCP22. (along with a few others. And have been for over a decade.
If we are talking about the average Joe or Sally then yes the snubbie and the small guns have a longer learning curve, but once learned a owner can become very proficient, much more than the internet will lead you to believe.

As far as recoil, I do not find them in 38 or 9mm to be anything but easy to shoot. And recoil a very NON issue. Yes, at first, but as time goes on recoil is not even noticed.
I have a size large hand and wear a Extra Large glove. And yet I prefer the smaller grips. Especially on the snubbies. I love shooting the snubbie and especially the LCR9mm. I load up 50 moon clips the night before for a typical range session. Again recoil is no issue and I could easily go on all day long.
My favorite 22cal is the LCR22. My gosh, I have shot that gun so often it feels like a part of my hand and love shooting fast action at the range. And again Shoot it often and you will surprise yourself at how well they can perform.

If the Gun Gods came down and told me that the only gun I could own would be a 5 shot snubbie, it would not bother me one bit.And on thing I learned along the way is that if you can shoot a snubbie with proficiency you can shoot any gun well. In fact, after my son learned the basics with many firearms, I bought him a LCR22 and said "Shoot the snot out of it, it will make you a fantastic shooter. (which he now is)
May God bless the Snubbie!

Kahr 380 and LCP22
LCR9mm and LCR22

I didn’t say a person can’t be proficient. There are very good revolver shooters out there. Compared to shooting say a P365/Shield I found the LCR both harder to shoot accurately and not as pleasant. It wasn’t that it was bad, but a range session for me is 100-200 rd. With a P365 or a Shield I’m fine with that. With my LCR I wasn’t. In 22 sure I’m sure it is fine. If your experience was different fair enough. Not all experiences are the same. I can only speak for myself, my family and friends, and my observations at the ranges I go to.


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[Carl the Floor Walker]

I didn’t say a person can’t be proficient. There are very good revolver shooters out there. Compared to shooting say a P365/Shield I found the LCR both harder to shoot accurately and not as pleasant. It wasn’t that it was bad, but a range session for me is 100-200 rd. With a P365 or a Shield I’m fine with that. With my LCR I wasn’t. In 22 sure I’m sure it is fine. If your experience was different fair enough. Not all experiences are the same. I can only speak for myself, my family and friends, and my observations at the ranges I go to.


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I own a few Micro 9mm's and shot the 365 for 1000 rds. I find it to be a nice shooter and about the same as a Kahr 9mm or a Ruger LC9. A little snappy but not a big deal. But then again, perceived recoil has many opinions. I also think time behind the wheel of these small guns lessens perceived recoil. A certain immunity develops over time. Just my thoughts. I was not offended by your post. Many feel the same as yourself.

 

[Alan0354]

I think all the complains about recoil issue of small guns and grip size and all are overblown. It's all about practice and getting used to it. Of cause, shooting my 8" Colt Trouper has much less kick than my 36 snuby, but are you going to carry my Trouper out walking around?

Be that as it may, practice more, get use to it and get over it. I like my micro revolver, the Freedom Arm 22magnum, you want to talk about tiny? I have a way to shoot it comfortably, absolutely no problem. Just find the best way to hold the gun and practice and stop complaining.

The more you make it a big deal, it will become a big deal!!!



EDIT:

My wife worn out a Charter Arm snuby. I am serious, when I open the gun and clean the internal, I could see the wear particular the SA trigger part. It was 35 years ago, there had to be problem with SS on SS parts. But it worn out quite bad. Point is she shot enough of the snuby, she never once complain about the recoil. You just get used to it.

 

[TunnelRat]

I think all the complains about recoil issue of small guns and grip size and all are overblown. It's all about practice and getting used to it. Of cause, shooting my 8" Colt Trouper has much less kick than my 36 snuby, but are you going to carry my Trouper out walking around?

Be that as it may, practice more, get use to it and get over it. I like my micro revolver, the Freedom Arm 22magnum, you want to talk about tiny? I have a way to shoot it comfortably, absolutely no problem. Just find the best way to hold the gun and practice and stop complaining.

The more you make it a big deal, it will become a big deal!!!

I shoot quite a bit. Recoil in general doesn’t bother me, it’s not a matter of “getting over it”. The point is recoil does have an impact on shooting. It’s easier to shoot faster and easier to deal with recoil anticipation in firearms that recoil less. This generally leads to better shooting. In a self defense situation this matters. There’s no reason to make your life more difficult in a defensive shooting if you don’t have to.

Now if you find that the recoil in your case is worth the difficulty, say you find a snubbie easier to conceal or carry than something else, then fair enough there’s a reason. But no, when I can carry a P365 or Shield and have better ballistic performance in a package that is as easy to carry for me as a j frame, has more capacity, and is easier to shoot for me, I’m not going to carry the j frame just because I should “get over it”. I’m not giving up what I see as objective advantages to match someone else’s idea of what is good. And I don’t expect anyone else to do the opposite when it comes to giving up a snub nosed revolver for what I like.

It seems everyone here has reasons why they carry what they carry. It also seems snub nosed revolvers continue to have a dedicated fan base and manufacturers continue to produce them. All seems well.


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[Alan0354]

No, I don't carry a snuby.

I don't have the new semi, but I shot a lot on my Walther PPKS which is 21oz and small like people described here, the kick back is just a bad, you sure it's not psychological that people believe semi kick less? I sure don't feel that.

I emphasize, I am not for snuby, I just through it's being unfairly casted.

Of cause, you have to take concealment into consideration, or else why are we even talk about this? If I carry my 8" Trouper, I can assure you there will be no kick back problem and it shoot where it aims. It's funny people talk about accuracy about snubies. they are not. Technology has not allow us to make a gun that is jack of all trade yet. Maybe some day.

 

[TunnelRat]

No, I don't carry a snuby.

I don't have the new semi, but I shot a lot on my Walther PPKS which is 21oz and small like people described here, the kick back is just a bad, you sure it's not psychological that people believe semi kick less? I sure don't feel that.

I emphasize, I am not for snuby, I just through it's being unfairly casted.

Of cause, you have to take concealment into consideration, or else why are we even talk about this? If I carry my 8" Trouper, I can assure you there will be no kick back problem and it shoot where it aims. It's funny people talk about accuracy about snubies. they are not. Technology has not allow us to make a gun that is jack of all trade yet. Maybe some day.

The Walther PPK/S isn’t the only small pistol, just like there are other options for carrying a larger firearm than an 8” Colt Trooper (none of the comparisons or points I’ve made here have been about either of those, though I understand those are two references for yourself). Decades have passed since those firearms were released and there are now a ton of firearms on the market. Those firearms don’t all shoot the same. The only way to know what does or doesn’t work for you, in my experience, is to try it for yourself. It’s also true that there will frankly be things on which people will simply not agree. That’s why the market has options.


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[Alan0354]

My point is kick back is not that big a deal, you choose by what function it serve and practice with it until you feel comfortable. Like I said, my wife wore out a Charter Arm snuby, there goes to tell how much she shot that snuby, she never complained. She shot the Trouper and others, she never commented one way or the other. She just shot. Don't make it a big deal.

ALL small size guns are going to kick, I shot a lot with my little Beretta 950BS 25ACP, it kicks hard, because it's very light and very small, even if it's a 25ACP, it kicks. Should try my Freedom Arm 22 magnum!!!! They are around for their own purpose. You just have to choose for the situation.

Like I said, I am not gunhole for snubies, in fact I have not tough those snubies years before I even stop shooting, I went all semi. Just when I took them out a few days ago, I notice judging by size, weight and stopping power, we should not overlook the snubies. Just put them in the mix, not say they are superior. That's the reason I started this thread, not snubies are superior, just think they are under rated.


BTW, semi and revolvers kick very different, there is no mistake by the feel. They all kick a little different, you just get use to it by shoot a lot until you are comfortable with it. If someone just buy the gun and carry without shooting it, then..............Huston, we've got a problem!!!

 

[JohnKSa]

My point is kick back is not that big a deal, you choose by what function it serve and practice with it until you feel comfortable.

It's not about comfort, it's about physics.

More recoil means slower shot-to-shot times, and/or poorer accuracy on follow-up shots. Doesn't matter how comfortable the person is shooting the gun, they will shoot faster and/or more accurately with a gun that recoils less.

This is why some competitions have minimum calibers and/or power factor limitations. They are attempts to level the playing field.

 

[TunnelRat]

My point is kick back is not that big a deal, you choose by what function it serve and practice with it until you feel comfortable. Like I said, my wife wore out a Charter Arm snuby, there goes to tell how much she shot that snuby, she never complained. She shot the Trouper and others, she never commented one way or the other. She just shot. Don't make it a big deal.

I don’t believe I am making it a big deal to be honest. Whether I can still shoot a snub nosed revolver and even shoot it well doesn’t mean I don’t notice the difference in recoil relative to other firearms (and no it doesn’t have to be as drastic a difference as an 8” Colt Trooper). If those differences aren’t important to you that’s your call. I have already stated multiple times that I know people can and do shoot small revolvers well. That doesn’t change why I choose to carry something else, for all the reasons I’ve mentioned earlier.

And no I didn’t get the impression you were saying snub nosed revolvers were better, you’ve explained that you meant underrated multiple times now. My response to that has been and continues to be, there may be some truth to that, but the market has a lot of choices now, there are reasons someone might prefer those other choices, and manufacturers continue to make snub nosed revolvers and the fans of those handguns continue to enjoy them. That they might not be as popular as they once were doesn’t mean they are underrated, in my opinion.


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[Alan0354]

.......... but the market has a lot of choices now, ..................

Ha ha, not in Kalifornia. You have Ruger LC, S&W Shield..........That's about it!!! Both are like 5 oz heavier than the Ruger LCR. If we can have LCP, now you're talking. I bet it will sell like hot cakes in Kali. I would be the first one in line to buy one. Stupid Kalifornia.

I am itching to buy a smaller one, but I don't see a clear choice, LC is very close to the weight and size of my Walther PPKS, why would I want to get one like that? S&W Shield is closer to my Glock 26 than to the Walther PPKS.
Then why do I want to get another full sized 9mm if I can have only 10 rounds? It's like I want to buy, but what to buy!!

My ideal next smaller could be a Berretta TomCat 32 IF it doesn't have such BAD reputation of frame cracking.

Seacamp 32 is going to very hard to get and very expensive if you can find one, and it's only a 32ACP.

You people are lucky not living in kali.