Are the snubies being underated?

[Alan0354]

A snub is capacity deficient.
An attacker(s) may be hard to stop, example:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-crazed-man-attacking-deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/

12 hits before incapacitation.
Hard to stop could happen anywhere, which is why a Glock 26, Shield, or 1911 (examples) + spare mag is a good desirable minimum everywhere.

A 7 shot 380 is "better than nothing" but that is not a criteria we use by choice to pick a gun to defend life. (If in doubt refer to video again)

Remember I am comparing the snubies with the semi of the same weight, 5 rounds and 17 rounds is a big difference, BUT fair comparison by weight and size, you are comparing 5 rounds to 7 rounds. You trade reliability with 2 more rounds.

Semi are more reliable if it is big, for that small a size, it's questionable. There are physics in this, you need the weight ( the initia) to cycle the gun in semi, if you have less weight, you put heavier spring and reliability goes down hill. So reliability is day and night difference when comparing between revolvers and semi in 15 to 16oz category.

 

[ThomasT]

Find a copy of the book by Ed Lovett called "The Snubby Revolver" and after you read it you will appreciate the snub even more. One guy over at THR forum said he bud called his snub his "Roving gun". I liked that term.

And if you want to compare handgun sizes have a look at this site. I have used it to help me decide if a gun will fit the criteria I am interested in. The only problem with this site is that they don't have a lot of revolvers in their data base.

https://www.handgunhero.com/

 

[dahermit]

A snub is capacity deficient.
An attacker(s) may be hard to stop, example:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/video-crazed-man-attacking-deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/

12 hits before incapacitation.
Hard to stop could happen anywhere, which is why a Glock 26, Shield, or 1911 (examples) + spare mag is a good desirable minimum everywhere.

A 7 shot 380 is "better than nothing" but that is not a criteria we use by choice to pick a gun to defend life. (If in doubt refer to video again)

How many "stops" have been made with one shot compared to twelve shots? Citing one extreme case does not prove anything.

 

[Alan0354]

As I mentioned in my first post, every size gun has it's purpose, you have big semi that can carry 17 rounds if you are preparing for conflict like going out in a riot or dangerous area. Then you have snubies and 7 rounds 9mm or 380 that you want to carry a lot and shoot a little, those that actually have stopping power in small package sacrificing number of rounds and still a little bulky, but manageable.

Then you have the mouse gun for hot weather where you wear shorts and T shirt. You have nowhere to hide by a mouse gun. That, I have two of the Freedom Arms 4 shot 22magnum. Don't laugh, it's better than a knife.

This thread, I specifically limiting to the middle category, moderate concealable, real stopping power. you are talking about 38+P and 9mm. 380 is a little on the low side. If you compare 38+P to 9mm only, snubies win big with weight and bulk.

Look at the picture of my first post comparing the thickness. You can shave off the butt of the snuby and make it even more concealable as shown. remember, the gun is 'L' shape, it's the butt that make it hard to conceal, thinning the butt makes a day and night difference. It makes it a little harder to grab, but get over it, practice and you get use to it.

 

[jmr40]

you cannot beat the reliability of a revolver. Revolvers don't jam.....PERIOD.

Over the years I've had more revolvers malfunction than semi-auto's. Revolvers have many of their moving parts outside the frame susceptible to damage, dirt and debris. And if a revolver does malfunction it isn't back in the game again until it is repaired requiring the use of tools.

If a semi-auto goes down it is almost always an ammo failure that can be cleared and have the gun back in action in seconds. Most moving parts are inside the guns frame protected from damage and dirt. This is especially true with striker fired guns.

Size wise the G26 isn't a fair comparison. Put a J frame next to a 10 shot Sig 365, Glock 43, or a Ruger LC9s. Power wise 9mm+p is right on the heels of 357 mag loads with much more manageable recoil than 38+p when fired from a J frame.

I still like and own revolvers, but the compact semi's have outclassed small revolvers for quite some time. Where revolvers have their place is in larger framed, longer barreled guns shooting more potent loads. That is where you start doing something you can't do well with semi's.

 

[FunGramps]

My carry gun is a S&W Model 60 SS Snubby, .357 magnum.
Non-combat movie style gunfight odds are, IMO, a less than 1% probability.
The exception might be if you're into inner city gang warfare.
Most will never use their weapon in self defense. If they do, it will be close and finish quickly.
Have a reliable and powerful enough weapon to make that first and less likely, second shot save your life. Really, there's no need to get technical about anything else.

 

[Radny97]

A snub is capacity deficient.
An attacker(s) may be hard to stop, example:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/v...deputy-soaks-up-12-rounds-before-hes-stopped/

12 hits before incapacitation.
Hard to stop could happen anywhere, which is why a Glock 26, Shield, or 1911 (examples) + spare mag is a good desirable minimum everywhere.

A 7 shot 380 is "better than nothing" but that is not a criteria we use by choice to pick a gun to defend life. (If in doubt refer to video again)

*Roll eyes*


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[Radny97]

Over the years I've had more revolvers malfunction than semi-auto's.

I seriously doubt that’s true.

I shoot about 20,000 rounds a year, split roughly evenly between semiautos and revolvers. Both classes of guns well maintained and with quality ammo. Have i had failures with revolvers? You bet. Two. Just two over years and years of shooting. (One was powder residue under the ejector star preventing the cylinder from closing, the other a broken firing pin.)
Semiautos I get a failure every 3 or 4 thousand rounds if they are well maintained.

It’s true that usually a revolver failure is more time consuming to resolve than a semi auto failure.


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[Carl the Floor Walker]

Great point and seems to be the norm on the internet. Find a extreme case and Parrot it over and over. If extreme cases were anywhere the norm and they are not, we would all be carrying at least a 12ga.
Two forums did a actual poll of how many of the users actually even fired a firearm in self defense during their lifetime. Almost overwhelmingly the top answer was (0). Then the polls would ask if so how many rounds more than One was fired, then two, then three and on. Surprisingly the very few that did post they had to use a firearm in defense was just a very small percentage and even then three or less.

The important thing IMO is to not worry about what others carry and only worry about what you do. And then Practice and train often and diligently with your choice. If someone wants to carry a three Pound Pistol with a dozen mags, is fine with me. And the same should go with the guy that carries a small 380 or Snubbie. It could be deadly to under estimate them.

 

[TunnelRat]

As I mentioned in my first post, every size gun has it's purpose, you have big semi that can carry 17 rounds if you are preparing for conflict like going out in a riot or dangerous area. Then you have snubies and 7 rounds 9mm or 380 that you want to carry a lot and shoot a little, those that actually have stopping power in small package sacrificing number of rounds and still a little bulky, but manageable.

Then you have the mouse gun for hot weather where you wear shorts and T shirt. You have nowhere to hide by a mouse gun. That, I have two of the Freedom Arms 4 shot 22magnum. Don't laugh, it's better than a knife.

This thread, I specifically limiting to the middle category, moderate concealable, real stopping power. you are talking about 38+P and 9mm. 380 is a little on the low side. If you compare 38+P to 9mm only, snubies win big with weight and bulk.

Look at the picture of my first post comparing the thickness. You can shave off the butt of the snuby and make it even more concealable as shown. remember, the gun is 'L' shape, it's the butt that make it hard to conceal, thinning the butt makes a day and night difference. It makes it a little harder to grab, but get over it, practice and you get use to it.

I’ve owned a Model 60 and a Glock 26. I didn’t find the Model 60 that much easier to carry unless you were talking a jacket pocket. I had twice the capacity with the Glock 26 and frankly it was just easier to shoot, and this is from someone that learned to shoot on a Model 19. Large frame revolvers are great to shoot. Smaller frame revolvers not as much, especially the airweight frames.

38 special out of a 1.875” barrel frankly isn’t that much different than a 380 auto out of a 2.75” barrel when it comes to energy (i.e. a j frame versus a Ruger LCP). Even adding 50-100 FPS to the 38 special values for a +P loading doesn’t show much of a difference. Once you talk about a 9mm out of a 3” barrel versus the 38 special (i.e. a S&W Shield versus a j frame) the revolver really looks less appealing.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/38special.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/380auto2010.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/9mm.html

It also doesn’t have to be a Glock 26 these days. The P365 holds 10 rd of 9mm and is noticeably slimmer when carrying than a Glock 26, heck it’s smaller than a Shield.

I carry a Glock 19 daily. I don’t do that because I am planning to “go out in a riot”. Frankly I’d rather avoid a conflict and if an area is a known “bad area” I don’t go there. It also isn’t because I plan to “spray and pray” as was mentioned by another earlier. That’s an old trope.

If you want to carry a j frame more power to you. I believe there are better options in today’s market.


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[TunnelRat]

Also, now that I actually have the Glock in my hand and play with it. I am not comfortable having a round in the chamber and the gun is cocked. If I know I am going to get into fight, that's different, but not just carry for "just in case". A snuby can be fully loaded and just pull the trigger, not those strike fire auto. a DA/SA like my old Walther PPKS would be a lot better.
.

Back in your original thread about buying a Glock I had told you if you didn’t feel comfortable with the Glock and having a round chambered then you shouldn’t buy one. I had said this because of how uncertain you seemed and how much you were flip flopping on the decision. You seem to have bought it and just confirmed what you already knew and outright stated.


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[FunGramps]

I seriously doubt that’s true.

I shoot about 20,000 rounds a year, split roughly evenly between semiautos and revolvers. Both classes of guns well maintained and with quality ammo. Have i had failures with revolvers? You bet. Two. Just two over years and years of shooting. (One was powder residue under the ejector star preventing the cylinder from closing, the other a broken firing pin.)
Semiautos I get a failure every 3 or 4 thousand rounds if they are well maintained.

It’s true that usually a revolver failure is more time consuming to resolve than a semi auto failure.


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I've been shooting semi's and wheel guns for over 50 years now, and have NEVER had a wheel gun malfunction. Semi auto's...so many have malfunctioned that I can't recall them all.

 

[FunGramps]

Great point and seems to be the norm on the internet. Find a extreme case and Parrot it over and over. If extreme cases were anywhere the norm and they are not, we would all be carrying at least a 12ga.
Two forums did a actual poll of how many of the users actually even fired a firearm in self defense during their lifetime. Almost overwhelmingly the top answer was (0). Then the polls would ask if so how many rounds more than One was fired, then two, then three and on. Surprisingly the very few that did post they had to use a firearm in defense was just a very small percentage and even then three or less.

The important thing IMO is to not worry about what others carry and only worry about what you do. And then Practice and train often and diligently with your choice. If someone wants to carry a three Pound Pistol with a dozen mags, is fine with me. And the same should go with the guy that carries a small 380 or Snubbie. It could be deadly to under estimate them.

My father did a full career as a deputy sheriff in King County, WA beginning in 1967. He worked as a detective and homicide, as well as many years as a beat officer in his squad car. Other than in training, he fired his service revolver at an individual ONE TIME in his entire career, and it was a warning shot over a fleeing felon's head.

 

[shafter]

Snubbies do what they've always done just as well as they ever have, but the semiautos have come a long way now. The reason they've fallen out of favor is because semiautos nowadays are just as concealable, if not more so, hold more rounds, and are just as reliable.

I'm betting that of if the old legends like Askins and Jordan were just getting started today they would be running semiautos. They used the best that was available in their time but times change.

 

[Alan0354]

I’ve owned a Model 60 and a Glock 26. I didn’t find the Model 60 that much easier to carry unless you were talking a jacket pocket. I had twice the capacity with the Glock 26 and frankly it was just easier to shoot, and this is from someone that learned to shoot on a Model 19. Large frame revolvers are great to shoot. Smaller frame revolvers not as much, especially the airweight frames.

38 special out of a 1.875” barrel frankly isn’t that much different than a 380 auto out of a 2.75” barrel when it comes to energy (i.e. a j frame versus a Ruger LCP). Even adding 50-100 FPS to the 38 special values for a +P loading doesn’t show much of a difference. Once you talk about a 9mm out of a 3” barrel versus the 38 special (i.e. a S&W Shield versus a j frame) the revolver really looks less appealing.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/38special.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/380auto2010.html

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/megraphs/9mm.html

It also doesn’t have to be a Glock 26 these days. The P365 holds 10 rd of 9mm and is noticeably slimmer when carrying than a Glock 26, heck it’s smaller than a Shield.

I carry a Glock 19 daily. I don’t do that because I am planning to “go out in a riot”. Frankly I’d rather avoid a conflict and if an area is a known “bad area” I don’t go there. It also isn’t because I plan to “spray and pray” as was mentioned by another earlier. That’s an old trope.

If you want to carry a j frame more power to you. I believe there are better options in today’s market.


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Model 60 is bigger and at 21oz. I am talking about Model 36 and better yet Rugen LCR@ 13.5oz.

Sig 365 is not legal in Ca and might be other states. Also, it is 10+1 9mm. There is physics, if you stack 10 round, either the grip is as thick as Glock 26 OR the grip is longer, there's no other way about it to stack 10 rounds. I doubt is better for concealment.

Revolver jam when it catch so lint, threads and other dirt around the cylinder where the arm turns the cylinder. It is preventable. If you depend your life on it, make sure to open the cylinder and make sure nothing in the way. Then the revolver is absolutely reliable.

You cannot say about semi, there will be no sign, it jam when they jam. Remember, the smaller the semi, reliability is not going to be as good as the big one

I am not saying revolver is superior, I just say it's under rated. When comes to pocket size in jackets, snubies compare very good with the new semi.

I repeat many times already. When you go up to Glock 19, semi definitely superior than revolvers. Just the pocket sizes where semi don't have clear advantage over snubies.

 

[Alan0354]

Snubbies do what they've always done just as well as they ever have, but the semiautos have come a long way now. The reason they've fallen out of favor is because semiautos nowadays are just as concealable, if not more so, hold more rounds, and are just as reliable.

I'm betting that of if the old legends like Askins and Jordan were just getting started today they would be running semiautos. They used the best that was available in their time but times change.

Of cause, if you talk about full size, high capacity semi kick the butt of big revolvers. No doubt about it. The big semi can have 17 rounds, ultra reliable. But for snuby size, you only talking about 7+1, smaller lighter semi are always less reliable, this is just physics. Smaller lighter slide means you have to have stiffer recoil spring, reliability goes down.

 

[TunnelRat]

Model 60 is bigger and at 21oz. I am talking about Model 36 and better yet Rugen LCR@ 13.5oz.

Sig 365 is not legal in Ca and might be other states. Also, it is 10+1 9mm. There is physics, if you stack 10 round, either the grip is as thick as Glock 26 OR the grip is longer, there's no other way about it to stack 10 rounds. I doubt is better for concealment.

Revolver jam when it catch so lint, threads and other dirt around the cylinder where the arm turns the cylinder. It is preventable. If you depend your life on it, make sure to open the cylinder and make sure nothing in the way. Then the revolver is absolutely reliable.

You cannot say about semi, there will be no sign, it jam when they jam. Remember, the smaller the semi, reliability is not going to be as good as the big one

I am not saying revolver is superior, I just say it's under rated. When comes to pocket size in jackets, snubies compare very good with the new semi.

I repeat many times already. When you go up to Glock 19, semi definitely superior than revolvers. Just the pocket sizes where semi don't have clear advantage over snubies.

I owned an LCR as well. I would make the some comments about an LCR as I did the Model 60 when it comes to the Glock 26. I don’t find carrying between the two to be dramatically different when talking in a holster in the waistband (the stock grips of the LCR are chunkier than those in a j frame, though that cushioning makes it more pleasant to shoot).

Magazine design what makes the P365 unique in terms of the capacity for the size. Look at images of a P365 superimposed on a Shield. It is smaller. That it’s not legal in CA is unfortunate for the people in CA. I own the P365XL and I sold the Glock 26 as I found the XL easier to conceal when using the pinky extensions on the Glock. I don’t see how the standard P365 isn’t easier to conceal than a Glock 26 and in talking to friends or people at the range they generally echo the same thoughts.

I have had semiautomatic pistols go close to 9,000 rd without a malfunction (and it wasn’t that they then malfunctioned, the count stopped because I sold the pistol). As was explained in that other thread, it’s not 30 years ago. Reliability has honestly improved. You not being able to believe that personally doesn’t negate the experience of those of us that have seen it firsthand.

Do I think a revolver is more reliable? I think in terms of just cycling rounds it likely is. Am I so concerned about the reliability of semiautomatics that I wouldn’t carry one because of the difference in reliability? No. You keep saying that when it comes to concealment we’re talking about “clean” environments where all we are worried about is lint. If someone is close enough to you to grapple with you, as was discussed earlier, then they are close enough to knock you to the ground. Do I think that means the revolver will be encased in mud? I wouldn’t think so. But depending on where you usually are and what you do it might be worth considering.

I honestly don’t think the snubbie is underrated. If we look at this thread there are a number of people here that are big fans of j frames and similar revolvers. The Ruger LCR and S&W j frames still continue to be good sellers for those companies. They certainly have fans. Do those handguns occupy the same market share as what they might have in the past? No, but there are new offerings and as I and others have pointed out there might be reasons people choose to go a different route.

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[Alan0354]

I am talking about small semi, not the big one.

Yes, the snuby grip is wide, but you can shave off as I indicated. That's how it is, you modify to fit. I even did it on my Beretta 950, grind the plastic grip thiner. You can't do it on Glock or Sig.

 

[shafter]

Alan, I'm not knocking the snubbies. I really do like them and enjoy owning a few. Furthermore, there is no denying that even today a great many are still being produced, carried and used successfully for self defense.

I have to disagree about the reliability of the smaller semiautos though. I've had revolvers fail me. I've had a transfer bar break on a Ruger single action and they are legendary for their toughness and reliability. I've had the cylinder rod unscrew itself causing the cylinder to be stuck closed until I could figure out what was wrong on a Model 10. I've also had unburnt powder get stuck under the cylinder star which also caused a malfunction on a Model 37. Each of these would be impossible to fix in a gunfight.

I've never had, or seen a semiauto have a failure that couldn't be fixed with a tap and rack or a magazine change and I've seen alot of shooting being a LE instructor. Of course those were full sized handguns, but I've never had any issues with the smaller ones either.

Furthermore, when dealing with small concealed carry handguns such as a Smith and Wesson snub or a Smith and Wesson Shield, I find the capacity difference between 5 rounds and 8+1 to be more critical than say 15 to 18.

Just my thoughts. No hate here for the snubbies. They're still great but have limitations.

 

[TunnelRat]

I am talking about small semi, not the big one.

Yes, the snuby grip is wide, but you can shave off as I indicated. That's how it is, you modify to fit. I even did it on my Beretta 950, grind the plastic grip thiner. You can't do it on Glock or Sig.

I’m not talking about big ones either. A P365 isn’t big. I’ve had a Shield go a thousand rounds without a malfunction. It didn’t just spontaneously malfunction. My P365XL has 1200 rounds through it and ejects like a sewing machine (better than some larger pistols I’ve owned)

The grip on the P365 is notably thinner than a Glock. Shaving the rubber on the LCR grip is possible, though would look like hell. The reason the grip has that width on an LCR is to give your hand some cushion as you’re still shooting a centerfire cartridge in a small and light handgun (lighter than a number of semi autos, as you pointed out). Take that cushion away and yes you’ve made the pistol more concealable, but you’ve also made it harder to shoot and it’s already harder to shoot than a number of the smaller semiautomatics, at least in my experience. It’s a trade off.


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