An ethical question

[jcoiii]

I'd like to address the idea that how we treat prisoners might influence how our own are treated.

First, I don't hear about the food, shelter, and religious preference given to our captured soldiers. Second, THEY CUT THE HEADS OFF OF THEIR PRISONERS. Um, if I'm ever captured, sign me up for waterboarding, before having someone cut my head off while I'm still alive.

Now, that being said, do not quote me as saying we can do whatever we want. I still do believe that we should be better than the enemy. The post from the reserve officer was very nice and I generally have to agree with it.

 

[STAGE 2]

Stage2,
You can try to sugar-coat waterboarding all you want. It's simulated execution and that's torture.

The key word there being simulated. Yes waterboarding makes you feel like you're drowning. However there is no actual danger of physical injury. Someone here made the statement the we shouldn't do anything that we wouldn't want our troops to go through. Well, certain select units go through interrogation training to prepare in the event they are captured. Guess what, we waterboard our own guys as part of their training.

So I ask you. If given the choice between being waterboarded, having your fingers and toes cut off, or having an interstate hooked up to your "sensitive" parts, which one are you gonna pick. I know which one I am. I might not like it at the time, but however many days or years down the road I'm going to be a whole lot happier.

Serious question here:
Have you ever considered the notion that torturing prisoners might actually be counter-productive to intelligence gathering? That more people might come forward with information voluntarily if we didn't torture prisoners?

Yes. I'm not advocating torture. Sleep deprivation is not torture. Loud rock music is not torture. Anything that does not leave any serious physical damage is not torture. This includes waterboarding.

Whether torture is actually successful I don't know. There are reputable people on both sides of that argument.

However the idea that people are going to come forward with information voluntarily is totally fanciful. The people that know the stuff that we really want to know are dedicated fanatics. They aren't going to give up anything for free.

 

[MoW]

Serious question here:
Have you ever considered the notion that torturing prisoners might actually be counter-productive to intelligence gathering? That more people might come forward with information voluntarily if we didn't torture prisoners?

Again you are as off as possible. 30 seconds isn't torture #1. # 2 harsh treatment is not torture such as loud music, sleep deprivation etc...this isn't a choice between name, rank, serial number or torture---there is middle ground. #3----apparently you just pick and choose certain parts of threads to read---maybe you missed the part about this being terrorists operatives being questioned by the CIA---not military captures or interogation by the military. #4--what possible logical world are you living in where more people would come forward with info if we didn't "torture"? The documented cases showed that there were numerous other methods tried first before the waterboarding---only AFTER the 40 seconds of waterboarding did they relinquish what they knew.

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Stage 2 - if we were under siege from a wave of home grown White Christian American citizens like Tim McVeigh who conducted a large series of similar to Oklahoma city bombings and sniper attackes (like the DC ones) across the country - would you support waterboarding them?

If say - no - because they are citizens, then is morality only based on tribal membership? Other folks, not being Americans, have no moral stance to be protected from torture.

It was once said:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

--------- This was a founding principle that lead to the BOR later than specifically spoke against torture. All men - it's a telling phrase.

Last, if our folks are captured and waterboarded, I expect you will write a letter to the editor approving and explaining the moral right of the enemy to do such.

 

[springmom]

Of course it is

Loud rock music is not torture

Obviously you've never heard the garbage my boys listen to :barf: It certainly tortures ME

Sorry. Couldn't resist. You are right.

Springmom

 

[MoW]

Stage 2 - if we were under siege from a wave of home grown White Christian American citizens like Tim McVeigh who conducted a large series of similar to Oklahoma city bombings and sniper attackes (like the DC ones) across the country - would you support waterboarding them?

If say - no - because they are citizens, then is morality only based on tribal membership? Other folks, not being Americans, have no moral stance to be protected from torture.

It was once said:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

--------- This was a founding principle that lead to the BOR later than specifically spoke against torture. All men - it's a telling phrase.

Last, if our folks are captured and waterboarded, I expect you will write a letter to the editor approving and explaining the moral right of the enemy to do such.

Absolutely waterboard them-----40 seconds of harsh treatment in return for uncovering plots that could kill 1,000's of Americans!--Not even close. Exactly who are our "folks" being captured? If these were Americans, in a foreign land, that planned an attack to kill thousands of innocent civilians---then yes they should be waterboarded as well. So far we are talking about 14---known captured terrorists that had inside info regarding terrorists plots---not soldiers with NO idea of any plots. Come on here people---get real.

 

[Leif]

then is morality only based on tribal membership?

Unfortunately, it is for those whose worldview is tribal.

 

[Twin1911S]

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[ZeroJunk]

To the guys against any forced interrogation

What if you were actually in a position with the responsibility of deciding what to do with OBL or similar if he were caught,and you new terrible terrorist attacks were planned( which you can bet there are).If you did nothing to discomfort the terrorist and these attacks succeeded ,how would you feel?Talking about it on this forum is interesting,but if your decision is actually going to determine the life or death of perhaps thousands of people,you would probably spend a little more time thinking about it.

 

[Leif]

Yea are you kidding any American that is caught on there soil is as good as dead with the exception of a few. I say lets grant them the same fate. Any terrorist caught on U.S soil if found guilty by a court should be executed right then and there. One less we have to worry about blowing up a building or mall full of innocent people. Face it people times are changing we are more and more of threat of being attacked on our own soil. Just imagine if every Arabic/Mideastern person in America was part of a terrorist cell that has been transplanted here by the terrorist groups for how long no one knows. Just imagine if they all were and every cell in America was activated there are enough of them here to rival our military that isn’t fighting in the mideast. I think sooner or later we will as a American citizen have to fight to protect our country from the growing terrorist threat. There are too many of them and they all live for the same thing WAR they will never stop as long as the west is a thriving, Free world they will always be jealous and always have hatred toward us. Why? Because that’s how they are born and raised and it will never change.


So in closing all I can say is “ LET THE BODIES HIT THE FLOOR ”

Point in case ...

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Dear American Citizens:

The strong proponents of the 2nd Amend. - who view it as absolute - think that you should be tortured if it is expedient. They also think simulated drowning is not torture or a method of compulsion. Thus please ignore the following:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

and

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

in all future dealings with the government.

As long as have my gun - that's all I care about. Folks wonder how a civilized country like Germany became Nazi Germany. The Miligram and Zimbardo experiments demonstrated that Americans could act atrociously with a simple change of circumstance. Unfortunately, some on the TFL confirm their work - or at least verbally indicate that they would act similarly. What is so special about America - that you can have a gun? Is that it? I'm rather disgusted. One wonders why a neutral person may not be for the 2nd Amend. - one reason is that a significant portion of supporters have values that are completely antithetical to the rest of our rights. How can we ask for the right to own instruments of lethal force when we ourselves are no champions of freedom. The 2nd is a reset on 'what?'. I have yet to see such gun champions support the rest of the BOR. They mainly want to curtail our rights.

 

[Twin1911S]

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[Epyon]

Twin1911s....

Just imagine if every Arabic/Mideastern person in America was part of a terrorist cell that has been transplanted here by the terrorist groups for how long no one knows.

I understand your feelings on this, but what of the ones who obey the law? It has been my experience in living in this country that many Americans confuse/categorize me, a South Asian, for someone Middle Eastern due to their cultural and religious ignorance, do you condone profiling and unwarranted search and siezures, spying, indefinate detention and no due process on AMERICAN CITIZENS? Like it or not, many Middle Eastern, and South Asian people ARE LEGAL CITIZENS THEREFORE THEY HAVE THE RIGHTS AS STATED IN THE CONSTITUTION!! You say execute any terrorist on the spot. Are you implying a witch hunt, without trials or any due process to PROVE that the individual is guilty? Would you sleep easier knowing people of a certain ethnicity or religious group are executed even when innocent? As much as I'd like to see child molesters, and rapists get tortured for their crimes it has been established that we are to follow the justice system established by our Constitution. When it comes to enemy combatants, they should be given the same rights as any under the Geneva Conventions, let them face a military tribunal. If we stoop to their level of handling prisoners we are barbarians, and are as uncivilized as them.


Epyon

 

[Twin1911S]

Epyon

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[Epyon]

Twin1911s....

Thank you for the clarification. I have to ask though:

I believe that if you commit a crime you should have no rights what so ever

Do you mean ANY crime? Or any violent crime? In the case of violent crime, I'd agree (rape, murder, etc.) However the problem arises that trials aren't perfect, there can be wrongful sentencing, or in the case of the filthy rich, they can get away with murder because they have the best lawyers money can buy.


Epyon

EDIT: As I've said before, as much as it'd be great to know that convicted violent criminals would face severe phyiscal punishment, the Bill of Rights (which are supposedly inalienable. By that definition of inalienability, it means that it's a timeless law that shouldn't change.) state there should be no cruel or unusual punishment for the convicted.

 

[Leif]

Twin1911's, it means that your post was a clear example of the 'tribal' worldview to which I referred in post #67.

Your statements essentially paint any and all people of Arab Middle Eastern origin residing within the United States, regardless of their status of citizenship, as potential terrorists waiting only for a call to jihad to strike at this country. Not only is this patently untrue, it is not even remotely credible or possible. Rather, it is fearmongering, it is calling for 'foreign' blood based on the actions of a few extremists who happen to come from the same area of the world, it is no better than saying "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" while thumping your chest. That is tribal thinking. It is thought given with no concern for the implications of that thought or the actions it might engender to any human beings (and I use bold font sparingly, so I really want to emphasize that part) not perceived as being part of your group, your 'tribe.'

By your logic, the internment of the Japanese during the Second World War was a good and proper policy. If you believe that, I invite you to examine the combat record of those Japanese-Americans who fought in the armed forces of the United States during that conflict. I think that you will be surprised.

 

[Twin1911S]

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[Leif]

I have a lot of friends from Kuwait all I was saying was watch out America the time is coming.

Out of curiousity, did you share these sentiments with your Kuwaiti friends? What was their reaction?

Also, and I mean this in the kindest, gentlest, non-pedantic way possible, you may want to consider editing your last post. The style in which it is written may lead to, well, let's just say unwanted attention.

 

[DonR101395]

Serious question here:
Have you ever considered the notion that torturing prisoners might actually be counter-productive to intelligence gathering? That more people might come forward with information voluntarily if we didn't torture prisoners?

Serious Answer:
Have you ever considered that it might be productive? More people might come forward with information voluntarily rather than go through torture and still end up giving up the info in the end.

BTW, I don't consider waterboarding and loud music torture. I don't advocate torture, but my definition of torture may vary from yours.
My definition of torture is something that leaves permanant physical marks or broken bones.

 

[Twin1911S]

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