An ethical question
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While I do not agree with torture, I would like to remind people who we are fighitng against. We do need to take the gloves off.
raqi Defense Ministry: Insurgents Kidnapping People for Use in Car Bomb Attacks
Thursday , September 21, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Iraqi insurgents are no longer using just volunteers as suicide car bombers but are instead kidnapping drivers, rigging their vehicles with explosives and blowing them up, the Defense Ministry said Thursday.
In what appears to be a new tactic for the insurgency, the ministry said the kidnap victims do not know their cars have been loaded with explosives when they are released.
The ministry issued a statement saying that first "a motorist is kidnapped with his car. They then booby trap the car without the driver knowing. Then the kidnapped driver is released and threatened to take a certain road."
The kidnappers follow the car and when the unwitting victim "reaches a checkpoint, a public place, or an army or police patrol, the criminal terrorists following the driver detonate the car from a distance," the Defense Ministry statement said.
There was no immediate comment from the U.S. military. In the past, U.S. officials have said insurgents often tape or handcuff a suicide driver's hands to a car, or bind his foot to the gas pedal, to ensure that he does not back out at the last minute.
Although roadside bombs are the main weapon used by insurgents, suicide car bombers are designed to maximize casualties and sow fear among the population.
According to the Washington-based Brookings Institution, there have been 343 suicide car bombings causing multiple deaths in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214988,00.html
raqi Defense Ministry: Insurgents Kidnapping People for Use in Car Bomb Attacks
Thursday , September 21, 2006
BAGHDAD, Iraq — Iraqi insurgents are no longer using just volunteers as suicide car bombers but are instead kidnapping drivers, rigging their vehicles with explosives and blowing them up, the Defense Ministry said Thursday.
In what appears to be a new tactic for the insurgency, the ministry said the kidnap victims do not know their cars have been loaded with explosives when they are released.
The ministry issued a statement saying that first "a motorist is kidnapped with his car. They then booby trap the car without the driver knowing. Then the kidnapped driver is released and threatened to take a certain road."
The kidnappers follow the car and when the unwitting victim "reaches a checkpoint, a public place, or an army or police patrol, the criminal terrorists following the driver detonate the car from a distance," the Defense Ministry statement said.
There was no immediate comment from the U.S. military. In the past, U.S. officials have said insurgents often tape or handcuff a suicide driver's hands to a car, or bind his foot to the gas pedal, to ensure that he does not back out at the last minute.
Although roadside bombs are the main weapon used by insurgents, suicide car bombers are designed to maximize casualties and sow fear among the population.
According to the Washington-based Brookings Institution, there have been 343 suicide car bombings causing multiple deaths in Iraq since the fall of Saddam Hussein in 2003.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214988,00.html
The piece has NOT aired yet. Mr. Ross was on O'Reilly last night explaing the report due out soon. While info has been obtained by electronic spying---the info obtained here was by captured terrorists. He reports that other techniques--interogation, slapping, verbal threats, cold rooms, loud noise, and sleep deprevation were used FIRST. Only when the water-boarding technique was used, they ALL broke from between 25 seconds to 2 1/2 minutes. No permanent damage is done by water-boarding whatsoever. No eyes taken out, limbs removed. It is simply a physcological ploy where the body has a sort of gag reflex that causes you to believe you are drowning. AGAIN, this is important----this is for the CIA--not the military to use on terrorists and plotters---not simply soldiers who wouldn't know anything.
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What's the point of having the moral high ground with an enemy who doesn't appreciate or even understand your morals.The people who do are not the ones trying to kill us.Morals are not universal.Also,If somebody comes out of a "torture" session without a scratch on them,the definition of torture is way to broad.I don't think the CIA is evil or stupid.And,I don't think the NSA gives a crap about any conversation I have ever had.
Thanks. I'll keep an eye out for it. I look forward to seeing it. (By the way, if you edit out the extra bracket in the quote in your post, it'll come out looking right. FWIW.)
I think you are correct in saying that the CIA has different standards than soldiers on the battlefield. Needless to say, accountability and oversight are absolutely essential, to whatever lengths forcible interrogation are taken. Lack thereof, and/or badly- or un-trained personnel, and we screw up. Badly.
Zerojunk, the point is what I said about moral authority. We generally have quite a lot of it, historically, and because of it, our diplomats are able to do a lot that otherwise somebody's soldiers would have to fix. That is not a small thing, and it should never be squandered for the short term battle victory, because it is our moral authority that enables us, figuratively and literally, to win the war. You and I would disagree absolutely about the question of morals being absolutes.
I don't think the CIA is evil or stupid either. Matter of fact, I came very close to going to work for them a number of years ago. It would have been fun, sort of, although NEVER being able to tell anybody what you did at the office today would have worn thin for me.
And you're probably right that the NSA doesn't care about you...of course, if I were in charge of clandestine operations in spookville somewhere, I would have somebody reading every post on every board like this, on the offchance of finding another Tim McVeigh or some such.... so you may be incorrect.Springmom, who coulda been a spook...but just isn't spooky enough
Looks like an agreement has been made and our CIA will be able to use some harsh treatment to obtain info. They will NOT reveal what tactics will be allowed so Al Queda cannot prepare for it----but it's a good bet that waterboarding WILL be allowed---by the CIA only!
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/art...BT005999_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SECURITY-GUANTANAMO.xml
http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/art...BT005999_RTRUKOC_0_UK-SECURITY-GUANTANAMO.xml
springmom,
Here is a link to the interview with O'Reilly and B. Ross---
http://www.billoreilly.com/site
Here is a link to the interview with O'Reilly and B. Ross---
http://www.billoreilly.com/site
I did a bit of skimming here, so I'll just get to the original point.
When dealing with an attacker you can fight dirty, but there are still limitations on how far you can go. For an exaggerated example say you are attacked and you knee the attacker in the groin and spray him with pepper spray, he falls on the ground in pain and lays there moaning. At that point you don't want to pull out a knife and cut him up into little pieces, even though you might feel like it.
On the national level, every move we make has the chance of being broadcast around the world. The government has to consider how we are viewed by other countries that we associate with, especially if they want assistance or compliance. For example: Not attacking in Mosques is probably not so much for Iraqs benefit as it is for the other Muslim nations that we are not fighting with.
Also the U.S. has fought diry many times against their enemies. If you don't believe me look at the American Cival War and Reconstruction.
When dealing with an attacker you can fight dirty, but there are still limitations on how far you can go. For an exaggerated example say you are attacked and you knee the attacker in the groin and spray him with pepper spray, he falls on the ground in pain and lays there moaning. At that point you don't want to pull out a knife and cut him up into little pieces, even though you might feel like it.
On the national level, every move we make has the chance of being broadcast around the world. The government has to consider how we are viewed by other countries that we associate with, especially if they want assistance or compliance. For example: Not attacking in Mosques is probably not so much for Iraqs benefit as it is for the other Muslim nations that we are not fighting with.
Also the U.S. has fought diry many times against their enemies. If you don't believe me look at the American Cival War and Reconstruction.
Stage2,
You can try to sugar-coat waterboarding all you want. It's simulated execution and that's torture.
Serious question here:
Have you ever considered the notion that torturing prisoners might actually be counter-productive to intelligence gathering? That more people might come forward with information voluntarily if we didn't torture prisoners?
You can try to sugar-coat waterboarding all you want. It's simulated execution and that's torture.
Serious question here:
Have you ever considered the notion that torturing prisoners might actually be counter-productive to intelligence gathering? That more people might come forward with information voluntarily if we didn't torture prisoners?
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