A message for gun owners.
- Thread starter chris in va
- Start date
Here is all I will say about the locking up guns part.
I grew up around my Fathers gun(s) and it was always loaded and chambered. I knew where it was but I never felt like it was anything "special" (from a child's perspective) because my dad would let me handle the gun any time I asked him if I could.
Naturally it wasn't loaded when he let me handle it in the house but the fact that it wasn't some mysterious "cool" thing made me not really think anything of it. I never tried to play with it, I knew what it was, how it worked and what it could do so I had respect towards the weapon.
Each family has to figure out what's best for them and I'm only sharing how I was brought up.
As a child, a handgun was NOT a mystery to me so I never felt the need to "play" with it when my dad wasn't around. This worked for our family and it may be the answer for some but not others.
Not proposing this as a method for everyone but for my family it worked just fine.
It was also sort of out of necessity as it was important for me, at a very young age, to be familiar with handling a handgun and even being able to use it defensively if a situation arose.
I was handling my dad's guns since I was 5 years old and shooting them since the age of 6.
I grew up around my Fathers gun(s) and it was always loaded and chambered. I knew where it was but I never felt like it was anything "special" (from a child's perspective) because my dad would let me handle the gun any time I asked him if I could.
Naturally it wasn't loaded when he let me handle it in the house but the fact that it wasn't some mysterious "cool" thing made me not really think anything of it. I never tried to play with it, I knew what it was, how it worked and what it could do so I had respect towards the weapon.
Each family has to figure out what's best for them and I'm only sharing how I was brought up.
As a child, a handgun was NOT a mystery to me so I never felt the need to "play" with it when my dad wasn't around. This worked for our family and it may be the answer for some but not others.
Not proposing this as a method for everyone but for my family it worked just fine.
It was also sort of out of necessity as it was important for me, at a very young age, to be familiar with handling a handgun and even being able to use it defensively if a situation arose.
I was handling my dad's guns since I was 5 years old and shooting them since the age of 6.
Gaerek, the idea that most guns go south was debunked rather heavily when the methods the feds used in their study were revealed. They only ran checks on guns that were serialized according to US law. Once that was determined, IE that the sample checked were cherry picked from the Mexican bin of guns, the percentage dropped from over 90% to around 17%.
Then, look at all the M16 pattern weapons in use by the Zeta cartel. Let's see... who founded the Zetas? Oh, yeah - former Mexican Special Forces officers. Think they may have acquired some of their weaponry from Mexican Army armories?
Then, of course, the US supported sides in conflicts in Nicaragua and El Salvador for many years. I wonder why M16, M1 carbine, and 1911 pattern weapons might be in circulation?
Meanwhile, the former USSR had typically supported the other sides. Now where other than US gun stores and citizens could cartels get AK47 pattern guns?
China will sell weapons to anybody. Cheap.
NFA weapons from the US cost thousands. Would I, as a theoretical cartel guy, spend $6K on a pre-ban M16, or $150 on a black market Salvadoran M16? Hmmmm... tough one.
So, please explain your comment about most guns going south?
Then, look at all the M16 pattern weapons in use by the Zeta cartel. Let's see... who founded the Zetas? Oh, yeah - former Mexican Special Forces officers. Think they may have acquired some of their weaponry from Mexican Army armories?
Then, of course, the US supported sides in conflicts in Nicaragua and El Salvador for many years. I wonder why M16, M1 carbine, and 1911 pattern weapons might be in circulation?
Meanwhile, the former USSR had typically supported the other sides. Now where other than US gun stores and citizens could cartels get AK47 pattern guns?
China will sell weapons to anybody. Cheap.
NFA weapons from the US cost thousands. Would I, as a theoretical cartel guy, spend $6K on a pre-ban M16, or $150 on a black market Salvadoran M16? Hmmmm... tough one.
So, please explain your comment about most guns going south?
trg42wraglefragle
New member
Whether or not keeping guns in a safe will stop a determined criminal or not is almost not important.
Remember the antis aren't logical thinking people, its there feelings that count not logic, but even its not just the anti that you need to keep quite.
Its the majority of the population that the antis are getting onside with that will be the ones that force politicians to make legislation on gun control.
Politicians aren't going to have 70% of the population screaming for gun control but the rest convince them otherwise, politicians are going to do what will get them votes, not whats right.
(70% being a guessed figure).
People should do everything they possibly can to convince antis, and the rest that gun owners are doing everything they possibly can to shut them up.
Yes a determined criminal would most likely be able to break into a safe, but if someones in to just grab a few things and go, isn't going to take the time to find your safe and then try break into it.
And to protect children from guns, as children are well known for messing with things, and if they find a loaded gun, or their friend finds one they are going to most likely play with it.
Remember the antis aren't logical thinking people, its there feelings that count not logic, but even its not just the anti that you need to keep quite.
Its the majority of the population that the antis are getting onside with that will be the ones that force politicians to make legislation on gun control.
Politicians aren't going to have 70% of the population screaming for gun control but the rest convince them otherwise, politicians are going to do what will get them votes, not whats right.
(70% being a guessed figure).
People should do everything they possibly can to convince antis, and the rest that gun owners are doing everything they possibly can to shut them up.
Yes a determined criminal would most likely be able to break into a safe, but if someones in to just grab a few things and go, isn't going to take the time to find your safe and then try break into it.
And to protect children from guns, as children are well known for messing with things, and if they find a loaded gun, or their friend finds one they are going to most likely play with it.
I suppose I stand corrected.
The Border Patrol specifically states, however, that they are looking for drugs coming North, and Guns and Money going South. Beyond that, I don't really have a comment.
However, my original statement was in how weapons get into criminals hands. Most armed robbers don't get M16's from Zeta cartel. They get their Glock Foh-tay from law abiding John Doe...either from stealing it, or making him think they're a good law abiding citizen and buying from said John Doe. In that respect, the guns going south comment isn't really pertinant, and I probably shouldn't have even mentioned it.
EDIT: I'm not sure where NFA firearms entered the discussion by the way. I was talking about guns getting in the hands of criminals through theft, and through law abiding citizens. Most armed criminals don't have NFA guns. Some certainly do, I'm sure, in the way you're showing, but the VAST majority of criminals guns come from people like you and me.
The Border Patrol also has a bean bag loaded as the first round in their shotguns; this is because the Border Patrol does what Janet Napolitano and the administration tell them to do whether or not it makes sense.
I would imagine direct theft (by the criminal), indirect theft (criminal buying from a fence), and known unlawful sales (unscrupulous pawn shop guy, or a friend of the criminal, sells to the criminal) far outweigh guns obtained from law-abiding citizens.
I would imagine direct theft (by the criminal), indirect theft (criminal buying from a fence), and known unlawful sales (unscrupulous pawn shop guy, or a friend of the criminal, sells to the criminal) far outweigh guns obtained from law-abiding citizens.
Whoa there, let's go back to the topic at hand here. It was, essentially that we should lock our guns up as much as we can when we aren't using/carrying them. The logic being that it will help prevent theft (houses are easy to break into, safes not as much).
When I said that criminals get their guns from law abiding citizens, this is what I was referring to.
Direct Theft - Who are they stealing from? Law abiding citizens.
Indirect Theft - Where did the fence get the gun? A criminal. Where did that criminal get the gun? Most likely (certainly, not always) from a theft (if they're using a fence to off load hot items) of a law abiding citizen.
Unlawful Sales - This is the only one of the 3 you mentioned where they aren't getting the guns, necessarily from a law abiding citizen. And in some cases, they still are (good guy sells to a bad guy, for example).
The point I was trying to hammer home was that if you want to help keep guns out of criminals hands, making sure your guns are locked up and secured, besides being behind a locked front door, will make a great first step.
That's all I meant. Nothing about NFA. Nothing about cartels, and drug lords. Just about where armed criminals most likely get guns from...they originate from a law abiding citizen, who knowing he's protected from legal liability by keeping his guns behind a locked front door, doesn't secure his guns, and then he has a break in and they get stolen. There's no way to substantiate this since most gun thefts don't get reported (I've heard anywhere between only 10% to 30% are actually reported).
Guns in criminals hands have to come from somewhere. Assuming that NICS is 100% (I know it's not, but the false negative rate of NICS can't be substantiated either), a criminal can't buy one, he'll get a NICS rejection. As you said, those are the only three options, and most guns within those three options come from theft of a law abiding citizen.
I agree with your sentiment here, but this is an Ad Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc fallacy. Just because Big Sister says load your first round as a bean bag, does not mean everything the Border Patrol does is bad. But I agree, I don't completely trust what they are doing either.
They may also have bought guns before they became prohibited persons; they may have passed NICS checks because states have not all been reporting in a uniform manner (for example, a judge in Maine just ordered her court to forward NICS related paperwork from now on - they had not been doing so prior because while the Feds want the info, they did not fund the request, and the court in Maine had no money to process and send the appropriate info all this time); they may have exchanged drugs or other goods for guns from people who the system does not realize should be prohibited persons.
On the other hand, guns have been stolen in large numbers via such methods as smashing trucks through the walls of gun shops.
One would think there should actually be a government metric showing how many guns used in crimes had been reported stolen. Perhaps you should look that up, Gaerek, since it is your argument that the number constitutes a significant percentage.
On the other hand, guns have been stolen in large numbers via such methods as smashing trucks through the walls of gun shops.
One would think there should actually be a government metric showing how many guns used in crimes had been reported stolen. Perhaps you should look that up, Gaerek, since it is your argument that the number constitutes a significant percentage.
Sure thing, here ya go.
https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/fireviol.txt
And if you don't feel like reading it, here's a quote:
Amazing, that jives with what I was saying.
That's not enough? Ok, how about this:
http://extranosalley.com/?p=10368
Here's the important part to get out of this:
Unknown origin? Couldn't be because it wasn't reported stolen? Or maybe had a serial number filed off? Nah, couldn't be.
And what about this?
http://www.firearmsid.com/feature articles/0900guic/guns used in crime.htm
You absolutely cannot deny that stolen firearms are a source of guns for a criminals...either through a fence, or personally stolen. There's precious little we can do, by ourselves, to curb criminals with guns. Keeping your guns secured is one, relatively easy, relatively cheap way of doing that. If you don't want to do it, well, that's on you, and that's why I have guns...to protect myself against criminals that do also.
The bottom line here is that statistics for the number of stolen guns used in crimes is skewed horribly for many reasons. One is the lack of reporting of stolen firearms. Two is many crimes (including those that use guns, such as murder, rape armed robbery, etc.) aren't ever solved. Three is there is no requirement for local/state police to report any of the data of whether a stolen gun was used in a crime...just that a gun was used in a crime. Can I prove my point? No, not completely, but you can't tell me that guns stolen from citizens like you and me aren't used in very many crimes either. (If you could, I'd do what you told me to do, and prove it...)
https://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/fireviol.txt
And if you don't feel like reading it, here's a quote:
Amazing, that jives with what I was saying.
That's not enough? Ok, how about this:
http://extranosalley.com/?p=10368
Here's the important part to get out of this:
Unknown origin? Couldn't be because it wasn't reported stolen? Or maybe had a serial number filed off? Nah, couldn't be.
And what about this?
http://www.firearmsid.com/feature articles/0900guic/guns used in crime.htm
You absolutely cannot deny that stolen firearms are a source of guns for a criminals...either through a fence, or personally stolen. There's precious little we can do, by ourselves, to curb criminals with guns. Keeping your guns secured is one, relatively easy, relatively cheap way of doing that. If you don't want to do it, well, that's on you, and that's why I have guns...to protect myself against criminals that do also.
The bottom line here is that statistics for the number of stolen guns used in crimes is skewed horribly for many reasons. One is the lack of reporting of stolen firearms. Two is many crimes (including those that use guns, such as murder, rape armed robbery, etc.) aren't ever solved. Three is there is no requirement for local/state police to report any of the data of whether a stolen gun was used in a crime...just that a gun was used in a crime. Can I prove my point? No, not completely, but you can't tell me that guns stolen from citizens like you and me aren't used in very many crimes either. (If you could, I'd do what you told me to do, and prove it...)
Might sound a bit crazy to this generation but here it is. I am 63, just for reference purpose. We have taken this gun safety thing way to far. Gun safety is: Treat all guns as though they are loaded, never point a gun at something unless you intend to shoot it.........those type things. Now, how I keep my guns in my home is no persons business.
I agree.eldermike said:
That said, my guns are locked in a safe when they're not with me or I'm not home. I would not be surprised if two thieves with a crow bar and a dolly could have that bolted-down safe out of the house in less than five minutes. Safes are made to keep honest people out of your stuff. Anybody who breaks into a house with locked windows and locked doors is anything but honest.
Its been stated many times here that gun deaths by scary black rifles only account for a small percentage of death by gun. What is the largest? Handguns - pistols or revolvers. If the anti's want to have a serious discussion about stopping death by gun that's where they should start. I would never propose banning any guns but instead look at where these thugs get their weapons. It's been proposed that most of them are stolen. Stolen from who? Legal gun owners like us that's who. How can you prevent criminals from getting stolen guns. Increase the penalty for possessing a stolen gun? Maybe, but we see how well other laws work. How about we lock up our guns so the average smash and grab thief can't get them? Seems simple and logical to me.
Most of my guns are locked in a safe. Not because I am afraid that they will be stolen and used in a crime, but because if they are stolen or my home catches fire, I will be out alot of money! The safe serves a secondary purpose of keeping guns away from my daughters friends and crooked folks who would take things not belonging to them. The primary purpose of my safe is to protect my assets.
SauerGrapes
New member
You and I arn't very far apart in age. {57} We probably grew up in similar type homes where guns weren't locked away. We were taught that guns weren't toys to play with.
That said, gun ownership has exploded to many people that grew up in families that don't own guns. I see problems with gun safety on a regular basis at my club. A lot of people own guns that have never had any proper supervision about how to treat guns.
As far as how you ''keep your guns'' being none of our business, you are correct. If your not worried about them, why should I.
Some of us just think it's a good idea to make it as hard as possible for someone to gain access to them. If you want to leave them in sock drawers and cloths closets, knock yourself out.
Can we really take the ''gun safety thing'' to far?
I have a system where I keep select guns out of the safe for ease of access. Among these few are the ones my wife and I carry. The others are in specific places in one area of the home- not all over the place.
It's just us here, no one else. When the house will be unoccupied, even for a brief time, I get all the guns not carried and put them in the safe. This only takes me a minute to do. And then when I come home I do the reverse, again only taking a minute.
I will not leave any guns out in case of a quick break-in. They'll have to work if they want them, I'm not making it easy for them.
One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is this. If we need to leave quickly, as in grabbing and bugging out the window at night (one level home), I have the guns I want right at hand, along with a small bug-out bag mostly containing ammo and mags. Guns in the safe will be left behind, and are therefore useless if you can't get to them in a time of need.
It's just us here, no one else. When the house will be unoccupied, even for a brief time, I get all the guns not carried and put them in the safe. This only takes me a minute to do. And then when I come home I do the reverse, again only taking a minute.
I will not leave any guns out in case of a quick break-in. They'll have to work if they want them, I'm not making it easy for them.
One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned yet is this. If we need to leave quickly, as in grabbing and bugging out the window at night (one level home), I have the guns I want right at hand, along with a small bug-out bag mostly containing ammo and mags. Guns in the safe will be left behind, and are therefore useless if you can't get to them in a time of need.
Frank Ettin
Administrator
You never have guests or visitors? Never friends or family for a drink or meal? Never a delivery person or repairman?AH.74 said:
Ok, you got me.
Except for one, all the guns I'm talking about are not in places guests would normally have access to. And we never have kids over.
So in the event that we do have these guests (trusted friends and family), that one gun is moved.
If we will be leaving with the guests, the guns are locked up before they get here.
When repairmen and delivery people will be here, they are indeed put away and I am CC'ing.
berettaprofessor
New member
I never allow my guns out of my direct control. In a safe, on my person, locked in my care, or close at hand. It's called responsibility. I just never want(ed) to be responsible when a 5 year old finds one of my guns and decides to play cowboys and indians with his friends.